Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[outhouse]

The problem is that, if the Bible is historically accurate

.

It is factually not accurate. There is no "if"

 

[outhouse]

I studied the flood account. I tried to apply the flood to real historical floods. The flooding of the Black Sea, the flooding of the land around the European ice sheets, the flood occurring when the ice dams broke, the flooding of the oceans as the ice melted (including the flooding of the Persian gulf), great river floods, but all didn't fit the description.


.

If you did study, you did not comprehend anything at all.

Furthermore, according to the Septuagint, the flood occurred near 3,000 BC, at the same date the Sumerians recorded a great flood.

And around that exact time what devastating flood happened exactly where they say it happened??????????


The Sumerians describe a severe river flood. This flood of the Euphrates is also attested as wiping out many early villages and cities along its bank. Loss of life was massive and it was if the world was coming to an end.

This was a real flood of 2900 BC were the OT states it happened.

Not only that soon after the legends of Ziusudra emerge of how he loaded animals on a boat and went down the swollen river who landed next to a hill, in which he made an animal sacrifice.


This is the first flood mythology in the area.

Soon after Akkadians produce similar river flood mythology.


After that Mesopotamia comes out with Gilgamesh and a sea deluge.

after that Israelites come out with a global deluge.


There is no mystery here only ignorance of those people who do not do or comprehend there homework

 

[allfoak]

There is no need for the Bible to be historically accurate.

I understand the historical perspective.
If the Bible is not accurate then there is no proof that the "Jesus God" ever existed.
That could be a real problem for the business of Christianity.
If He never existed then there is no salvation and it is all a hoax.

The problem has already been solved but is being ignored by the Christian community.
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library have shown without a doubt that the origin of Christianity is not what the average Christian thinks it is.

These texts were immediately branded as heresy by the catholic scholars while the independent scholars were silenced or discredited.
This is history that can be verified by anyone.
These texts also restore a good deal of what was purposely left out of what was to eventually become the Bible.

The release of Cabala to the gentile is more proof of what the scriptures are meant to be.
The literal text is just the outer shell of the meaning that is inside when properly interpreted.

Christians are living in a state of apostasy.
Nothing personal to the millions who have been fooled but the leaders should beware of what it is they are doing leading God's sheep astray.
If you don't start feeding a child something more than milk as they grow they will die.

 

[sojourner]

There is no need for the Bible to be historically accurate.

I understand the historical perspective.
If the Bible is not accurate then there is no proof that the "Jesus God" ever existed.
That could be a real problem for the business of Christianity.
If He never existed then there is no salvation and it is all a hoax.

The problem has already been solved but is being ignored by the Christian community.
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library have shown without a doubt that the origin of Christianity is not what the average Christian thinks it is.

These texts were immediately branded as heresy by the catholic scholars while the independent scholars were silenced or discredited.
This is history that can be verified by anyone.
These texts also restore a good deal of what was purposely left out of what was to eventually become the Bible.

The release of Cabala to the gentile is more proof of what the scriptures are meant to be.
The literal text is just the outer shell of the meaning that is inside when properly interpreted.

Christians are living in a state of apostasy.
Nothing personal to the millions who have been fooled but the leaders should beware of what it is they are doing leading God's sheep astray.
If you don't start feeding a child something more than milk as they grow they will die.

The whole "apostasy" thing? Conspiracy theory at best. "Properly interpreted?" Since the texts are multivalent, there is no "proper" interpretation. There are plausible interpretations. There are responsible interpretations. There are honest interpretations. But no such thing as one proper interpretation.

 

[gnostic]

The problem is that, if the Bible is historically accurate, that doesn't mean that Luther's, Calvin's or sonofason's interpretation is right. Their interpretation can be historically inaccurate. Then everyone is arguing, not over the Bible but over the interpretation.

We have a similar problem in the opposite direction. Some on this sight believe that the Bible was written late, say 300-500 BC. They insist that this is historically accurate and don't have to justify their position.

I studied the flood account. I tried to apply the flood to real historical floods. The flooding of the Black Sea, the flooding of the land around the European ice sheets, the flood occurring when the ice dams broke, the flooding of the oceans as the ice melted (including the flooding of the Persian gulf), great river floods, but all didn't fit the description. The only fit was a flood plain or swamp flood. The best fit was a floodplain flood in an unreliable climate. The word translated world is better translated region. The whole region was flooded. Furthermore, according to the Septuagint, the flood occurred near 3,000 BC, at the same date the Sumerians recorded a great flood.

Thor Heyerdahl showed that the Sumerians made great ocean going reed boats. The traded with the Indus valley on them. Later ocean going wood boats became better and replaced them. By 300 BC, all knowledge of the oceanic reed boats seemed to have disappeared. Any mythologist writing then would have used a wooden boat in his description.

BTW Careful when you quote the Bible. The translation is an interpretation. The Hebrew describes reed, not wood.

Reed...wood...

I think you are forgetting one important thing.

Genesis 6:15 was quite specific with the Ark's dimensions. Both the Septuagint and Masoretic Text have exactly the same figures:

This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.

And thus shalt thou make the ark; three hundred cubits the length of the ark, and fifty cubits the breadth, and thirty cubits the height of it.

In modern metric, that's...

length: 135m
width: 22.5m
height: 13.5m
​

(Near Eastern measurement for cubit at that time is about 45 cm (about 18 inches).)

No matter howyou look at it, whether the Ark be wood or reed, it is not possible to construct the Ark of that side, filled with 6 humans and x-number of animals, and stay afloat for one full year. There are limits to the size of any vessel, and the water pressures and the weight of the structure, which also included a roof and 3 decks, would cause the Ark to collapse.

And reed is definitely not a great material to build decks and roof, even if you slop it with pitch.

I doubt very much that you can construct the Ark of that size, with cargo, decks and all, and water and wind pushing against the Ark, and expect remain structurally sound.

I think you need wake up to reality.

 

[Ouroboros]

I doubt very much that you can construct the Ark of that size, with cargo, decks and all, and water and wind pushing against the Ark, and expect remain structurally sound.

I think you need wake up to reality.

My son saw a calculation someone had made regarding the pressure and friction from the rain. The temperature would have been close to boiling. Basically, the animals and the Noah family would have ended up being steamed cooked.

 

[Thief]

My son saw a calculation someone had made regarding the pressure and friction from the rain. The temperature would have been close to boiling. Basically, the animals and the Noah family would have ended up being steamed cooked.

Interesting notion.....

But then....Rain forest conditions are stiff as is.
Add water and the humidity alone might kill some things....like us.

Floating on a boat on top of hot water?
Takes from the story.
The boat might suffer loss of integrity.

 

[greentwiga]

Reed...wood...

I think you are forgetting one important thing.

Genesis 6:15 was quite specific with the Ark's dimensions. Both the Septuagint and Masoretic Text have exactly the same figures:

In modern metric, that's...

length: 135m
width: 22.5m
height: 13.5m
​

(Near Eastern measurement for cubit at that time is about 45 cm (about 18 inches).)

No matter how you look at it, whether the Ark be wood or reed, it is not possible to construct the Ark of that side, filled with 6 humans and x-number of animals, and stay afloat for one full year. There are limits to the size of any vessel, and the water pressures and the weight of the structure, which also included a roof and 3 decks, would cause the Ark to collapse.

And reed is definitely not a great material to build decks and roof, even if you slop it with pitch.

I doubt very much that you can construct the Ark of that size, with cargo, decks and all, and water and wind pushing against the Ark, and expect remain structurally sound.

I think you need wake up to reality.

The problem with wood boats over 300 feet long is that they hog, that is they bend in the middle. Either they break and sink in any size waves. or the sailor spend the whole trip pumping the bilges and refuse to sail in it again. Reed vessels are more like rafts with structures built on top. They can be built any size and can bend to their hearts desires because it is the reeds that keep it afloat, not an empty space inside. They are unsinkable. I invite you to read Thor Heyerdahl's RA.

Some near eastern cubits were 20" or 21", depending on the size of the king's forearm. You ought to Read more on the ancient Sumerians, Akkadians, etc.

 

[allfoak]

The whole "apostasy" thing? Conspiracy theory at best. "Properly interpreted?" Since the texts are multivalent, there is no "proper" interpretation. There are plausible interpretations. There are responsible interpretations. There are honest interpretations. But no such thing as one proper interpretation.

Maybe proper was to strong.
The scriptures were written in the language of the soul.
To interpret it as if it has meaning to anyone but ourselves would be foolish.
If someone tries to tell me how i should live my life based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures, then i know that they do not understand them.

We have all been taught to see the scriptures as historical and therefore think we have the right to tell someone else what they mean.
Just look at the destruction that way of thinking has caused.
Thomas Paine called it preistcraft.
A way for people to charge money for something that everyone should be doing for themselves.

 

[allfoak]

In other words?....history is written by the winner.

So much for accuracy.

The accuracy of the history is unimportant.
Study the scriptures as if they were written to you personally (because they are written to you personally) and you will begin to understand why the history is unimportant.

 

[allfoak]

ok....and I want to give you credit for serious introspection.

but so far....here in this forum....
Lots of people seem very sure....of themselves.

Myself included.

Why shouldn't i be sure of myself?
I don't infringe on other people's right to live as they please, that makes me confident that i am doing what is right.

 

[Thief]

Why shouldn't i be sure of myself?
I don't infringe on other people's right to live as they please, that makes me confident that i am doing what is right.

Most of what I see can be shown in my signature.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Many times the bible inspires questions, but does not provide answers.

To you perhaps.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Dear Readers, Carl Sagan said it a lot better. We are Star Stuff, made from the insides of the First Stars which blew apart and scattered their Star Dust all over our world. Our physical bodies contain some of that physical matter, BUT we inherited our Human intelligence from the common ancestor of Humans, named Adam. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

And as the sun is a fractal replication of God, we are made of God stuff.
That is why there is a sun in the first place. Consciousness expressed in physical terms.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe proper was to strong.
The scriptures were written in the language of the soul.
To interpret it as if it has meaning to anyone but ourselves would be foolish.
If someone tries to tell me how i should live my life based upon their own interpretation of the scriptures, then i know that they do not understand them.

We have all been taught to see the scriptures as historical and therefore think we have the right to tell someone else what they mean.
Just look at the destruction that way of thinking has caused.
Thomas Paine called it preistcraft.
A way for people to charge money for something that everyone should be doing for themselves.

I think you're wrong here. Christianity was conceived in community; its members have always been called into community, the bible was written, edited, and compiled as a communal effort. Interpretation is, therefore, a communal activity -- not a personal activity. The community must be engaged in mutuality and consensus.

 

[sojourner]

To you perhaps.

Very telling response -- and judging from your other posts, I'm not at all surprised at this response.

 

[allfoak]

I think you're wrong here. Christianity was conceived in community; its members have always been called into community, the bible was written, edited, and compiled as a communal effort. Interpretation is, therefore, a communal activity -- not a personal activity. The community must be engaged in mutuality and consensus.

If you are telling me what to think and believe you won't get very far.
The truth cannot be found by judging others.

If it is not a personal activity then someone else has the right to tell me what it means and that is completely against what the scriptures say how we should live.

 

[sojourner]

If you are telling me what to think and believe you won't get very far.
The truth cannot be found by judging others.

If it is not a personal activity then someone else has the right to tell me what it means and that is completely against what the scriptures say how we should live.

Jesus gathered his disciples into a group. When he taught, he often encouraged their opinions. Jesus sat his disciples down to eat together. Jesus said for them to love each other. These are all relational activities. Interpretation isn't about "what I think." It's about how we, together, encounter the texts. No one, in a love relationship, has the "right" to dictate. There is only mutuality and consensus.

 

[allfoak]

Jesus gathered his disciples into a group. When he taught, he often encouraged their opinions. Jesus sat his disciples down to eat together. Jesus said for them to love each other. These are all relational activities. Interpretation isn't about "what I think." It's about how we, together, encounter the texts. No one, in a love relationship, has the "right" to dictate. There is only mutuality and consensus.

This thread is about whether the scripture is tobe interpreted literally or not.
You are taking it literally and i do not, so we are at an impasse.
I can't speak to a literal view of the Scriptures because all that does is judge others.

The Bible can mean something different to everyone.
If you don't think that is true then look at all the division that is caused by telling someone else what it means.
Everyone thinks they know what it means and think they have the right to impose it in on everyone else.

fools.

The bible says not to judge.

 

[`mud]

Quote:
"The bible says not to judge.

fools."
~
'mud