Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

[Shiranui117]

I can understand and even accept this view of 'predestination' as a logical possibility.
In my opinion, "Total Depravity" is the key to whether Calvin or Arminius was more correct.
First, it is necessary to correctly define 'Total Depravity' (let's at least hate Calvin for what he actually taught).
Total Depravity means that EVERY PART of a person is corrupted by sin ... our body craves things not of God, our mind has thoughts not of God, our soul naturally seeks to hide from God (as Adam and Eve hid in the garden).
Total Depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they can possibly be ... 'Total' is the width of our depravity, not its depth.

Calvin (and I) believe that people are free to choose to follow God's law, but too sin filled to actually do it.
Thus Faith and Repentance are offered to ALL and obtainable by NONE (speaking in terms of our own human efforts).

Arminius (and you) believe that people cannot be perfect, but are capable of achieving both a measure of Faith and a measure of Repentance (based on our human efforts).
Thus Faith and Repentance are offered to ALL and obtainable by SOME (speaking in terms of our own human efforts).

If you and Arminius are correct, then 'predestination' is the knowledge by God of how things will end and directing his efforts towards those who will choose to say 'Yes'.
If Calvin and I are correct, then the problem with your view is that NOBODY will choose to say yes (under human power) and nobody will be predestined to salvation ... this requires some initial action by God to lend us the initial Faith and Repentance to say 'Yes' and take that first step ... at which point we are now the sort of people that You and Arminius believe us to be ... a people who can choose to follow God.

The real question is this: Did the Fall utterly destroy the image of God within us? Did we completely and totally lose all free will, and all capacity to become like God when we fell? If so, then what separates us from the demons?

It is my understanding of Cavinism, based on the belief in the total depravity of mankind, that Calvinists believe that the image of God within us was completely destroyed as a result of the Fall, hence the need for God to extend to us saving grace in order to give us a will that is able to choose and follow God, rather than sin.

As a practical, logical argument ... even if you are 100% correct that everyone makes a choice and lives with the consequence of that choice ...

Can God ...

• create two beings with eternal souls
• KNOW (omniscience) that both will sin
• KNOW that one will ultimately ask for forgiveness before death
• KNOW the other will cry out (after death) "Lord, did we not do good things in your name." ... only to hear "I never knew you."
• PREDESTINE one to heaven and one to hell based on this foreknown decision.

... and then wash his hands of any claim that God created some for blessing and some for destruction?

I am honestly not convinced that even your view of salvation does not deserve your outrage over the claim that God created some souls to be destroyed.
If God had to make the first move in salvation (as Calvin teaches), then God created some souls that will end up in Hell.
If men make the first move and God responds (as you seem to believe), then God still created some souls that will end up in Hell.

God ultimately makes the first move in salvation by calling us all, and giving every single one of us without exception the free will and ability to respond to that call, this is true. However, it would be illogical to say that the fault is God's if some of His children choose damnation over salvation, if they choose to become vessels of dishonor rather than dishonor. The fact that some souls will end up in Hell doesn't make God to blame if He gave them every chance to change their course and if they chose damnation in their own free, uncoerced will.

 

[atpollard]

The real question is this: Did the Fall utterly destroy the image of God within us? Did we completely and totally lose all free will, and all capacity to become like God when we fell? If so, then what separates us from the demons?

It is my understanding of Cavinism, based on the belief in the total depravity of mankind, that Calvinists believe that the image of God within us was completely destroyed as a result of the Fall, hence the need for God to extend to us saving grace in order to give us a will that is able to choose and follow God, rather than sin.


God ultimately makes the first move in salvation by calling us all, and giving every single one of us without exception the free will and ability to respond to that call, this is true. However, it would be illogical to say that the fault is God's if some of His children choose damnation over salvation, if they choose to become vessels of dishonor rather than dishonor. The fact that some souls will end up in Hell doesn't make God to blame if He gave them every chance to change their course and if they chose damnation in their own free, uncoerced will.

I don't know if this helps or hinders the discussion, but here is how Wikipedia explains the Cavinist/Reformed view of Total Depravity:

The term "total depravity", as understood in colloquial English, obscures the theological issues involved. Reformed and Lutheran theologians have never considered humans to be absent of goodness or unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. People retain the imago Dei, though it has been distorted.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in Reformed theology, if God is to save anyone God must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing God.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people have lost part of their humanity or are ontologically deteriorated, because Adam and Eve were created with the ability to not sin, and people retain that essential nature, even though the properties of their humanity is corrupted. It also does not mean that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through humanity.

The total reach of sin taught with the doctrine of total depravity highlights people's dire need for God. No part of the person is not in need of grace, and all people are in need of grace, no matter how outwardly pious. Feminist theologian Serene Jones sees the concept of total depravity as helpful because, according to Calvin, sin assaults the person from the outside in and occupies the whole self, allowing women to see how deeply oppression has harmed them and become part of their self-understanding.
​

One of the key take away points that I saw, was the view that 'Total Depravity' makes even our good deeds motivated by selfish desires, which to me rings true with the scriptures about our righteousness being like filthy rags before God.
That all men are incapable of choosing God is not a hill that I would either die for or break fellowship over. It is important, but not 'most important'. I simply find it a position with some scriptural support (and some scriptural contradiction) that is supported by the preponderance of MY personal experience ... God chose me, I did not first choose him.

Predestination vs free will and "God wants to save all" vs "None seek after God" are a couple of tough nuts to crack.
So I just keeping 'working out my own salvation with fear and trembling' and trust the Grace of God to carry me over the finish like.

 

[Shiranui117]

I don't know if this helps or hinders the discussion, but here is how Wikipedia explains the Cavinist/Reformed view of Total Depravity:

The term "total depravity", as understood in colloquial English, obscures the theological issues involved. Reformed and Lutheran theologians have never considered humans to be absent of goodness or unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. People retain the imago Dei, though it has been distorted.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in Reformed theology, if God is to save anyone God must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing God.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people have lost part of their humanity or are ontologically deteriorated, because Adam and Eve were created with the ability to not sin, and people retain that essential nature, even though the properties of their humanity is corrupted. It also does not mean that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through humanity.

The total reach of sin taught with the doctrine of total depravity highlights people's dire need for God. No part of the person is not in need of grace, and all people are in need of grace, no matter how outwardly pious. Feminist theologian Serene Jones sees the concept of total depravity as helpful because, according to Calvin, sin assaults the person from the outside in and occupies the whole self, allowing women to see how deeply oppression has harmed them and become part of their self-understanding.
​

One of the key take away points that I saw, was the view that 'Total Depravity' makes even our good deeds motivated by selfish desires, which to me rings true with the scriptures about our righteousness being like filthy rags before God.
That all men are incapable of choosing God is not a hill that I would either die for or break fellowship over. It is important, but not 'most important'. I simply find it a position with some scriptural support (and some scriptural contradiction) that is supported by the preponderance of MY personal experience ... God chose me, I did not first choose him.

First off, sorry for not having responded sooner. The week before exam week is filled with scrambling to get a lot of things done, and I thought this was going to be a far longer response than what it actually is.

But the thing is, if we are incapable of choosing God, then the image of God within us has been destroyed, because we have wholly lost the ability to become like Him. If we cannot choose Him, then we cannot grow towards Him, and thus we are completely unable to fulfill our purpose as human beings. We are like the demons, unable to ever be reconciled to God, unable to love Him.

Yes, God chooses us first, God calls us before all eternity, and the entirety of our being is in need of God's grace. However, if we are unable to choose God, if we are unable to love Him, if we are unable to choose not to sin, then the image of God within us was lost in the Fall, and God thus needs to recreate it when He bestows upon us His saving grace.

So I just keeping 'working out my own salvation with fear and trembling' and trust the Grace of God to carry me over the finish like.

Something we both need to keep working on, certainly.

 

[atpollard]

First off, sorry for not having responded sooner. The week before exam week is filled with scrambling to get a lot of things done, and I thought this was going to be a far longer response than what it actually is.

But the thing is, if we are incapable of choosing God, then the image of God within us has been destroyed, because we have wholly lost the ability to become like Him. If we cannot choose Him, then we cannot grow towards Him, and thus we are completely unable to fulfill our purpose as human beings. We are like the demons, unable to ever be reconciled to God, unable to love Him.

Yes, God chooses us first, God calls us before all eternity, and the entirety of our being is in need of God's grace. However, if we are unable to choose God, if we are unable to love Him, if we are unable to choose not to sin, then the image of God within us was lost in the Fall, and God thus needs to recreate it when He bestows upon us His saving grace.

Something we both need to keep working on, certainly.

So much there that I agree with 100%.
I am a little hesitant to conclude that the image of God within us has been "destroyed" ... that is just such a strong word.

Frankly, I can see some innate good in almost every person that I have ever met (and I have met some very broken and evil people along my journey). I have met a tiny few in whom I find it plausible to believe that the last glowing ember of good has gone out. I came frighteningly close to becoming one of them, but God ...
I have also seen enough to conclude that there is no evil which any/every person is not capable of reaching given enough time and the right incubator.

Grace overcomes Static Friction:
I remember an experiment in middle school or high school physics class where we had to measure the static friction and sliding friction of a wood block on an incline. If I remember the results of the experiment correctly, we learned that it didn't matter which side of the block was in contact with the surface, a short, narrow side of the rectangular block in contact had the same resistance to motion as a long wide side in contact. We also learned that it required more force to break the object free and start it moving than it required to keep the object moving.

Then I later learned about God and my sin and his grace.
Like the block, it doesn't matter how large or small the evil in my life appears, it is the weight of my evil that prevents me from moving towards God ... Since the wages of sin is death, all evil weighs too much to be overcome by my efforts. Like the block, I need an external force to act upon me and overcome my Static Sin in order to give me a chance to move towards God under the power of what was left of the image of God in my life (drawn along by the constant sanctifying Grace).

So as I see it, the image of God within me may be enough to allow me to continue to draw closer to God in the dynamic grace of sanctification, but it feels inadequate to overcome the initial stick of sin that holds me back from beginning the journey to justification. So God must provide the first push if I am to have a chance of reaching Him.

Thus I see the image of God as being hopelessly corrupted in fallen man, until Justification pulls me out of the ditch and back onto the path, giving me a chance to shake off some of the mud as I journey towards God ... with the Holy Spirit providing frequent showers of grace to wash off some of the mud and reduce the sin friction that holds me back. As I get closer to God, more of the image of God shines through and more of my effort can be applied to accelerating towards him rather than just overcoming the friction of personal sin.

Does that make any sense?