Glad you told us it was funny. Wouldn't have otherwise noticed.
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Caitlyn Jenner says transgender girls in women’s sports is ‘unfair’
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
Glad you told us it was funny. Wouldn't have otherwise noticed.
It's really not. At least, not once you get past an unavoidable layer of bigots on this issue.
It's called being a transvestite.
We Never Know
No Slack
In some cases something has to be pointed out to be a joke or humor or some people take it the wrong way and get offended.
By your reply Im guessing you might be one of those people.
I'm not very easy to offend, and have limited personal investment in this topic.
As I've gotten older I've become more aware of margainilised groups within society. My sense of humour has changed. I didn't find the photo at all funny. I'm not personally offended by it.
What, that the sexes have distinct competitions in sport because of physical rather than psychological differences?
Here's one example ─ golf ─ that you might consider addresses the point.
I'd take Eddie Izzard over Caitlyn any day.It's called being a transvestite.
I would, too! At least Eddie hasn't literally killed a person and gotten away with it!
Found one.
Olympic runner Semenya loses fight over testosterone rules
Female hyperandrogenism and elite sport
Disgraceful, in my opinion. There are more women with hyperandrogeny syndromes than there are women with red hair but apparently they're not 'women enough.'
And nobody complains about fairness when male athletes have helpful mutations to their sport (lactic resistance, enlarged heart and lungs, excess T, etc.)
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I might be wrong, but my initial reaction was that this might be less about whether someone with increased testosterone is 'woman enough' and more what doors this opens for PEDs.
Is it possible to separate naturally occurring testosterone from artificially enhanced testosterone?
[Edit]
In the interests of trying to educate myself more on this, I went to a somewhat trusted source, and found a useful breakdown, including some counterpoints to my post. Included here as I thought you might find it interesting and in the interests of sharing. Fair to say I remain somewhat ignorant on this issue.
Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport
[/edit]
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Augustus
…
Yes, sometimes directly or via ratios of testosterone/epitestosterone.
This only works within a particular window though.
The door for PEDs is so wide open that this probably wouldn't be much of a reason.
In any strength or endurance sport, the chances are the world's best are doping.
Is there incentive? Yes
Do the drugs work? Yes
Is it easy enough to avoid testing positive/evade OOC testing? Yes
Can natural skill and hard work overcome the benefits of doping gained by others? Not usually
Dunno if you had a look at the article I linked, but you might find it interesting.
Broadly supports some of the points you're making here, and taught me a thing or two.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
"Competitive sport" should be regulated on the "Genetic sex" basis, no matter how a person identifies.
Any hormonal enhancements should be banned from competing, in the same way drugs users are. What ever the difficulties in testing involved.
Recreational sport is generally not, and need not be, regulated by sex.
Pre pubescent children should be able to compete together if they so wish., as is the case in most schools now.
Any hormonal enhancements should be banned from competing, in the same way drugs users are. What ever the difficulties in testing involved.
Recreational sport is generally not, and need not be, regulated by sex.
Pre pubescent children should be able to compete together if they so wish., as is the case in most schools now.
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Would it be any worse than what would happen to me (a cis man, also around 215 pounds) in that situation?
Seems to me that merely being trans or cis isn't as major a factor as you're making it out to be.
By "genetic sex," are you talking about the SRY gene or the Y chromosome?
Edit: either way, are you suggesting that all athletes should have to go through genetic testing?
Found in today's news....
New Zealand weightlifter set to be first transgender Olympian - France 24
BTW, I take no position on how to regulate such things.
I see that some regulation would be useful, but consensus
will have to be the result of much thought, trial, & error.
New Zealand weightlifter set to be first transgender Olympian - France 24
BTW, I take no position on how to regulate such things.
I see that some regulation would be useful, but consensus
will have to be the result of much thought, trial, & error.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
why not? they have to go through drug testing. and testing for blood doping.
I think the issue of trans athletes in sport comes down to two questions:
1. Do you consider trans women to be real women and trans men to be real men? If the answer is "yes," then any physiological differences between trans women and cis women or between trans men and cis men are just part of the overall spectrum of what it can mean to be a man or a woman.
In that perspective, worrying about the "fairness" of letting trans women compete with other women makes about as much sense as asking whether the genetic advantages of tall cis women mean that they should play basketball in a different league from "real" women.
2. What's really motivating the discussion? Anyone who's real concern is "fairness" in kids' sports would be focused on issues that actually affect fairness in kids' sports... e.g. socio-economic factors that can take away a kid's opportunity to participate in organized sports at all.
Anyone who was really concerned with fairness would also consider the impacts to fairness of setting up new barriers to participation for whole categories of people (e.g. telling someone that they can't be on the team unless their genitals are inspected).
Short version: I wish that the people clutching their pearls at the idea that a high school sports team might have a trans kid on it would really be more up front with their bigotry and admit that their concern isn't really about fairness and that their desired outcome is the exclusion of trans people.
Of course, the fact that they don't come out and say this suggests to me that they know how awful their position is.
1. Do you consider trans women to be real women and trans men to be real men? If the answer is "yes," then any physiological differences between trans women and cis women or between trans men and cis men are just part of the overall spectrum of what it can mean to be a man or a woman.
In that perspective, worrying about the "fairness" of letting trans women compete with other women makes about as much sense as asking whether the genetic advantages of tall cis women mean that they should play basketball in a different league from "real" women.
2. What's really motivating the discussion? Anyone who's real concern is "fairness" in kids' sports would be focused on issues that actually affect fairness in kids' sports... e.g. socio-economic factors that can take away a kid's opportunity to participate in organized sports at all.
Anyone who was really concerned with fairness would also consider the impacts to fairness of setting up new barriers to participation for whole categories of people (e.g. telling someone that they can't be on the team unless their genitals are inspected).
Short version: I wish that the people clutching their pearls at the idea that a high school sports team might have a trans kid on it would really be more up front with their bigotry and admit that their concern isn't really about fairness and that their desired outcome is the exclusion of trans people.
Of course, the fact that they don't come out and say this suggests to me that they know how awful their position is.
Do you really think this is what happens?
I did a bit of high school sports. The only testing I ever had to do was demonstrate that I could tread water for 5 minutes in order to be on the dragon boat team.
Edit: and as an adult, I've participated in motorsports and competitive cycling events that have been subject to WADA rules. I've never had to have blood drawn or pee into a cup. Some motorsport events have had a morning breathalyzer test, but that's it.
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