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Cafeterianism

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But how do they know which they need? I presume the people who go to gyms (not me!) get the advice of a trainer, but unless you believe in gurus you're on your own. And the idea that the gods are "there to help you" seems very arrogant, very New Age.
I mean, all of theistic religions where gods intervene to help you seem very arrogant to me. But I think the analogy is more that religions or rituals (the workout machines in this analogy) are there to help you connect to the divine, not the other way around.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I grew up in what could be considered a "Cafeteria Catholic" household, which is to say that my family chose what doctrines were important to follow and which ones were not. My grandmother was the only one in the family that went to mass every Sunday, said grace before meals, attended every holiday service, and gave tithe to the Church. The rest attended Sunday mass sporadically, attended holiday services only if it was convenient, and that was pretty much totality of their practice.

Is it acceptable in your religion to pick and choose what doctrine to follow and to leave out ones you don't want to as you would picking out food from a cafeteria service line? Does not following all doctrine to the letter somehow diminish your closeness to God? Why or why not?

My Master makes it even "much easier".
You only need to "pick one" and follow it to a T
The others (if needed) will follow automatically

Makes perfect sense to me. Humans are known to "go left" if others tell them "go right"
Better pick something you really feel good about. That love will lead you in the right direction
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I grew up in what could be considered a "Cafeteria Catholic" household, which is to say that my family chose what doctrines were important to follow and which ones were not. My grandmother was the only one in the family that went to mass every Sunday, said grace before meals, attended every holiday service, and gave tithe to the Church. The rest attended Sunday mass sporadically, attended holiday services only if it was convenient, and that was pretty much totality of their practice.

Is it acceptable in your religion to pick and choose what doctrine to follow and to leave out ones you don't want to as you would picking out food from a cafeteria service line? Does not following all doctrine to the letter somehow diminish your closeness to God? Why or why not?
"Acceptable" to whom? Who is the arbiter? As PureX implies, surely that always has to be yourself, does it not?

I suspect the reality is that most people belonging to a religious denomination have only a very imperfect grasp of all its doctrines, and that almost all pick and choose to some degree. In the Catholic case for instance it is an open secret that almost nobody believes the church teaching on birth control makes any sense. And how many Catholics really understand what on earth transubstantiation really means?

I feel sure most parish priests realise perfectly well they have done a good job if half their parishioners understand and buy into half the doctrines and turn up for mass half the time. (We had a spectacular drunk at Christmas Midnight mass, by the way - created quite a commotion, reeling about and accosting people during the service... and then trying to sing:confused: . Don't suppose he'd been in a church since the previous Christmas. But everyone treated him with tolerant good humour, I'm pleased to say. I think the priest thought "Well, at least he is here now".)
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
"Acceptable" to whom? Who is the arbiter?

arbiter-thel-vadam-thumbnail-708x398-955e30b794274708ba9a70981c8a9e9f.jpg



As PureX implies, surely that always has to be yourself, does it not?

Not if one belongs to an organized dogmatic religion. How organized would an organized religion be if everyone did their own thing?

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying it was likely not the intent of the religious founders.

Religion should, IMO, adapt with new discoveries, but without core beliefs and tenets, where is the religious structure?

I suspect the reality is that most people belonging to a religious denomination have only a very imperfect grasp of all its doctrines, and that almost all pick and choose to some degree. In the Catholic case for instance it is an open secret that almost nobody believes the church teaching on birth control makes any sense. And how many Catholics really understand what on earth transubstantiation really means?

I feel sure most parish priests realise perfectly well they have done a good job if half their parishioners understand and buy into half the doctrines and turn up for mass half the time. (We had a spectacular drunk at Christmas Midnight mass, by the way - created quite a commotion, reeling about and accosting people during the service... and then trying to sing:confused: . Don't suppose he'd been in a church since the previous Christmas. But everyone treated him with tolerant good humour, I'm pleased to say. I think the priest thought "Well, at least he is here now".)

If so called Catholics are only buying into half of the doctrine, does the belief structure still have enough left to still be Catholicism? I think if parishioners choose what doctrines they want to follow and what doctrines they do not, one may end up with some form of McCatholicism, but in my eyes, it certainly ain't Catholicism as it was intended.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Not if one belongs to an organized dogmatic religion. How organized would an organized religion be if everyone did their own thing?

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying it was likely not the intent of the religious founders.

Religion should, IMO, adapt with new discoveries, but without core beliefs and tenets, where is the religious structure?



If so called Catholics are only buying into half of the doctrine, does the belief structure still have enough left to still be Catholicism? I think if parishioners choose what doctrines they want to follow and what doctrines they do not, one may end up with some form of McCatholicism, but in my eyes, it certainly ain't Catholicism as it was intended.

My argument is that this is probably how it has always been for the last 2000 years. And the church seems to be still going strong.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is it acceptable in your religion to pick and choose what doctrine to follow and to leave out ones you don't want to as you would picking out food from a cafeteria service line? Does not following all doctrine to the letter somehow diminish your closeness to God? Why or why not?
It seems to me that picking and choosing is the only responsible way to approach religion. Why shouldn't a person take the good and leave the bad?

Is the fact that the bad is packaged by others with the good really enough reason to ignore your conscience?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to me that picking and choosing is the only responsible way to approach religion. Why shouldn't a person take the good and leave the bad?

Yes, but if I didn't like tomato sauce, cheese, or meat and left those things out of my lasagna recipe, would I still be serving lasagna?

Wouldn't I just be serving noodles and calling is lasagna?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, but if I didn't like tomato sauce, cheese, or meat and left those things out of my lasagna recipe, would I still be serving lasagna?

Wouldn't I just be serving noodles and calling is lasagna?
That's a different issue. Yes: once a person has decided on what they accept or reject, they should be honest about it.

It would be misleading for someone to tell everyone that they love lasagna if they hate most of its ingredients.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes, but if I didn't like tomato sauce, cheese, or meat and left those things out of my lasagna recipe, would I still be serving lasagna?

Wouldn't I just be serving noodles and calling is lasagna?
This metaphor is farcically crude. To address the issue properly, you would need, for each religious denomination, to identify what its essential characteristics are, i.e. those without which it is no longer distinct from other beliefs or traditions. I think you would have quite a job on your hands, seeing as these characteristics are a mixture of doctrine, religious practice, tradition and hierarchy.

Every thinking person is going to find there are some things within a faith that seem right and some that seem doubtful, wrong, or just obscure. It is impossible to force oneself to believe wholeheartedly things that one finds suspect or does not understand. To pretend otherwise is to be false (to oneself) and a liar (to others).

And some of the distinctive doctrines are arcane beyond belief. For instance a major cause of the schism between the Orthodox and Catholic churches is the "filioque" clause, added by the Western church to the Nicene Creed. The disagreement was, and remains, about whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or just from the Father. Is it reasonable to demand of the average Catholic that he or she knows it is important to them that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both? Does anyone actually care?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
So, you're saying that the Church's teaching wasn't wrong. It was merely misunderstood for umpteen centuries?

The authority to interpret church doctrine belongs to the Church alone. Case in point a priest, Leonard Feeney, excommunicated for preaching his private interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
If this is the case, why must parishioner confess sins to a priest, perform the penance as directed by said priest, and receive absolution in order to receive Holy Communion?

“So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift” (Matthew 5:23-24).

“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:27).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think "cafeterianism" is now the mindset of many, truth doesn't seem to matter much anymore.
That begs the question. The point is that "truth", as far any individual conscience is concerned, is that which he or she is prepared to take to be true, or possibly true.

For a church, or even scripture, to simply state that such and such is "truth", and expect automatic belief, is not good enough, given that different churches and scriptures say contradictory things and interpret things differently. Who and what, then, is one to believe? It has to be something that a person works out for themselves.

"Quid est veritas?". Pilate had a point, uncomfortably for us all.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think "cafeterianism" is now the mindset of many, truth doesn't seem to matter much anymore.
I see it fromm the opposite perspective: "cafeterianism" is the approach when the truth does matter: the person carefully considers the merits - including the truth - of each aspect of the religion.

I'd say that the person who accepts the whole religion as a package without this careful consideration is the one for whom truth doesn't matter.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
In the Catholic case for instance it is an open secret that almost nobody believes the church teaching on birth control makes any sense.


The issue of contraception was raised and John XXIII convened a commission. which was continued by Pope Paul VI, to study forms of birth control with the advent of the 'pill'. There remains disagreement over the findings, concluding with Paul VI ignoring the positive conclusion of the commission. Basically it depends on one's definition of 'the spirit of Vat '.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So, you're saying that the Church's teaching wasn't wrong. It was merely misunderstood for umpteen centuries?

No, laypeople were not properly catechized in what the doctrine actually meant. The church has never restricted salvation to people who receive water baptism and formally enter the RC. But the doctrine is extremely complicated.

There was a clerical elitism that had seeped into the pre-Vatican II Catholic ethos, which hadn't existed in the early or even patristic church. It's still in the process of being suppressed by Pope Francis, although its dying out now because he is appointing so many new bishops and cardinals who support his theological stance.

Amongst scholastics and educated theologians, the dogma "there is no salvation outside the church" was recognised as being far more flexible in essence than it appears when presented uncontextualized. The traditional pre-Vatican II teaching of the Church recognises four varieties of baptism: water baptism, baptism by desire, baptism by blood and baptism by implicit desire.

The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council retained this dogmatic teaching but 'smoothed' over the language - to remove offensive, old-style terminology like 'heathens,' 'heretics', 'nonbelievers', 'Muhammadans,' 'infidels' and the idea that pious non-Christians sincerely following their conscience were actually 'baptised' by an assumed implicit desire for the truth of the Catholic Faith.

Firstly, you can had "baptism by desire". This is the case of a person who, comes to believe in the Christian or Catholic Faith, but dies before they can receive water baptism i.e. Pope Innocent II who reigned from 1130-1143. He wrote to the Bishop of Cremona in a letter entitled Apostolicam Sedem:


"...We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) though he had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written: 'Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.' Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the 'priest' mentioned..."

- Pope Innocent II (1130-1143)


Secondly, you can have "baptism by blood" if a person dies a martyr without water immersion In this manner, St. Emerentiana, St. Respicius the brother martyrs Sts. Donatien and Rogatien and St. Victor of Braga were never baptised with water but died catechumens.

Thirdly (and this is the most important in terms of non-Christians), you can have "baptism by implicit desire". This last form was explained by St. Alphonsus de Liguori:



“…Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt…It is called ‘of spirit’ because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, ‘de presbytero non baptizato’ and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire…Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament…”

- Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696 – 1787), Doctor of the Church



Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), Spaniard, post-Reformation Roman Catholic, Jesuit, Theological Professor, and a Cardinal writing in Rome under the eyes of Pope Urban VIII. He wrote this in one of his works:


“…the members of the various Christian sects, of the Jewish and Mohammedan communions, and of the non-Christian philosophies, who achieved and achieve their salvation, did and do so in general simply by God’s grace aiding their good faith instinctively to concentrate itself upon, and to practise, those elements in the cultus and teaching of their respective sect, communion or philosophy, which are true and good and originally revealed by God…”

- Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), De Fide, Disputations

Here is the old Catholic Encycoepedia on it:


Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): Baptism: Substitutes for the Sacrament: “The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.”

The Church: “Thus, even in the case in which God Saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church’s graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body.

In 1713 Pope Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel that "no grace is given outside the Church" just as Pope Alexander VIII had already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ". We subsequently have plentiful magisterial teaching from binding encyclicals and catechisms, including those of Popes Pius IX, Saint Pius X and Pius XII. See:


Holy Office [Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith], Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):

"It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit...God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is
contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God."


So, the doctrine shouldn't be misinterpreted to exclude from salvation anyone who hasn't received water baptism in the RC and Vatican II didn't revoke the doctrine, since there was nothing in fact to revoke apart from common misconceptions - it just ecumenicized and liberalised the language used to explain it.

The only real doctrinal development was the recognition by the Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium that atheists could also be redeemed despite not explicitly believing in God, through the same mechanism of baptism by implicit desire. Since there had been so few, if any, atheists prior to the enlightenment this wasn't surprising - the church had never been compelled to address the issue of their afterlife fate.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
The issue of contraception was raised and John XXIII convened a commission. which was continued by Pope Paul VI, to study forms of birth control with the advent of the 'pill'. There remains disagreement over the findings, concluding with Paul VI ignoring the positive conclusion of the commission. Basically it depends on one's definition of 'the spirit of Vat '.
Well there we are - church doctrines themselves sometimes change, adding to the justification for the individual to make his own judgements in conscience.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
In the Catholic faith, there is a hierarchy of closeness to God, for example, pope, cardinal, bishop, etc. In your view, is arrogance associated with this hierarchy?

No, it isn't supposed to be a hierarchy of closeness to God.

There is such a hierarchy, in a sense, but it consists not of those having more clerical authority but rather of those with the lowliest status who rank first in the Kingdom of God, a 'reverse dominance hierarchy' if you like. Hence why Jesus openly stated that little children were the 'closest' to the Kingdom and that adults had to become like children to enter into it, or else they never would. Remember his phrase, "out of the mouth of babes"?

Jesus was clear about this and his teaching is binding on all Christians, of whatever stripe:


Matthew 20

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Matthew 21

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you [religious leaders]."


In the medieval and early modern period, the priestly office was often abused to become what it was never intended to be - but any notion of clerics having more access to Deity than the laity, simply on account of their specific charism as an ordained minister of the sacraments, is heretical and known as 'clericalism' which is distinct from a healthy sacerdotalism.

The Protestant doctrine of the "priesthood of all the faithful" is also recognised by the Catholic Church. To deny it, would be to violate the principle of fundamental spiritual and epistemic equality defined by St. Paul in his epistle to the Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus".

But the church also incorporates 'gradations' of service, not holiness or 'access' to God - one of which is the ordained ministers, or deacons, priests and bishops. The pope's official title has always been, "Servant of the servants of God" in fulfilment of the verses quoted above from Matthew.

The Holy Spirit is believed to be universally present and available to all human beings, hence why St. Paul claimed that, in contrast to the then still functioning Second Temple in Jerusalem (which he himself respected and sometimes worshipped in), the true temple of God is in fact the body of each individual human person made in His Image and Likeness, in 1 Corinthians 6:9: "Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God?"

As Pope St. John Paul II put it in his 1990 encyclical Redemptoris Missio:


Redemptoris Missio (7 December 1990) | John Paul II


The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history...The interreligious meeting held in Assisi was meant to confirm my conviction that “every authentic prayer is prompted by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in every human heart.”



Nonetheless, different 'charisms' are thought to have been imparted to different members of the body of Christ, in consonance with each person's individual vocation. Thus, St. Catherine of Sienna was the recipient of mystical revelations and union with God that few priests have ever enjoyed, yet they have the charism through their ordination of absolving sins and celebrating the Eucharist, whereas she does not.

Protestants also recognise different 'callings' - hence why you have some people in Pentecostal churches who can allegedly speak in tongues, whereas the gift has not been given to everyone.

But two-tiered holiness has been moved away from since Vatican II.

See:


Innocent Civilians


The ban on clerical fighting was part of a general prohibition on the clerical use of weapons which extended to hunting as well as warfare. Clerics could not shed blood, either human or animal. The ban on clerical participation in war was not simply an implication of the advice to those who served God not to be concerned with the things of the world.

Rather, it was the act of killing which was thought to sully (as the ban on clerical hunting clearly shows). The ban on clerical participation is an acknowledgement that the most Christian thing to do is forgo all killing.


The established reasoning was to be based on the idea of the two levels of Christian vocation put forward by Eusebius of Caesaria. Eusebius held that Christians of the higher level (the clergy and religious) were to aim at the highest Christian ideals; they were bound by the ‘counsels of perfection’…

This differentiation between lay and clerical morality is not firmly grounded and there is certainly no biblical basis for it. It is odd to interpret Jesus’s command of non-resistance strictly for those Christians who desired to attain perfection (equated with clerics)…That something is not to be done by the most perfect Christians, because they are the most perfect Christians, is almost an acknowledgement that it ought not to be done by any Christian


Vatican II attempted to pivot the Church away from this spurious “two-tier model” of holiness:


The Universal Call to Holiness and Apostolate is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that all people are called to be holy, and is based on Matthew 5:48 - “Be ye therefore perfect, as also thy heavenly Father is perfect.”…

Chapter V of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen gentium discusses the Universal Call to Holiness:

all the faithful of Christ of whatever rank or status, are called to the fullness of the Christian life and to the perfection of charity; …They must follow in His footsteps and conform themselves to His image seeking the will of the Father in all things. They must devote themselves with all their being to the glory of God and the service of their neighbor.[3]

We are all called to the “perfection of charity”, not merely clerics.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I grew up in what could be considered a "Cafeteria Catholic" household, which is to say that my family chose what doctrines were important to follow and which ones were not. My grandmother was the only one in the family that went to mass every Sunday, said grace before meals, attended every holiday service, and gave tithe to the Church. The rest attended Sunday mass sporadically, attended holiday services only if it was convenient, and that was pretty much totality of their practice.

Is it acceptable in your religion to pick and choose what doctrine to follow and to leave out ones you don't want to as you would picking out food from a cafeteria service line? Does not following all doctrine to the letter somehow diminish your closeness to God? Why or why not?
In Hinduism cafeterianism is the correct way. :)
 
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