By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[ElishaElijah]

If I just blindly followed you, then yes, I would be taking mans' word over God's.

We are to look to Jesus Christ not man worship, seems you got that going on.
”Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Es

 

[F1fan]

There's much more to it than just facts, historians have to be able to interpret facts within a wider historical context.

OK, so what else is there than fact? Even you admit that experts interpret facts. They don't assume nonsense and then advocate for nonsense, like many theists do. And before you protest, realize that there are many theists that you do not agree with.

Science is different because it relies on falsifiability.

Which allows truth and knowledge. Religion has no such standard.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Really? Can you give us an example of an American court that acknowledged a God as fact?

An oath is an act of religion, and courts recognise oaths.

Those are obsolete traditions. Let's note that most courts don't require an oath on a religious book.

Religion is relevant because of the union of the church and the state which goes back to Constantine.

Until the Enlightenment and the collapse of religious authority. Secular government was developed given the many different religions and the tolerance for freedom. So religion lost it's authority in government for most Western nations. The American conservatives are trying to subvert this principle.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Actually you’re taking man’s word over the Word of God…

”and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.“
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭15‬-‭17‬ ‭

Claiming that information you don't understand or find uncomfortable is "man's word" is just a cheap way to dismiss and hand wave away things that don't fit your personal interpretation.

Your personal interpretation is not God's Word or the final authority. You have to do more than pay lip service through repetition of biblical quotes. You have to provide answers to the claims you make.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

We are to look to Jesus Christ not man worship, seems you got that going on.
”Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Es

This is just more diversion. Are you going to support your claims and demonstrate them or just keep running?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

We are to look to Jesus Christ not man worship, seems you got that going on.

I don't see you looking. If you were, you would be able to answer the questions asked of you and not have to go through all these twists and turns running from your obligation to do so.

”Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Es

 

[Ebionite]

I actually did

Really? Where?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

We are to look to Jesus Christ not man worship, seems you got that going on.
”Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Es

Recognizing reality and agreeing that others recognize it too is not the worship of man. It is the exercise of the gifts God gave us and expected us to use.

Toing the line that other men said we must in order to be perceived as true and righteous Christians is man worship.

In my opinion.

 

[ElishaElijah]

This is just more diversion. Are you going to support your claims and demonstrate them or just keep running?

You’re running brother, that is obvious, if you’re a believer then we should have common ground of truth that we have experienced from God Himself but we don’t have that here, why is that?

 

[Ebionite]

OK, so what else is there than fact?

Why would that be relevant? The point is that facts are not a exclusive form of evidence.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Recognizing reality and agreeing that others recognize it too is not the worship of man. It is the exercise of the gifts God gave us and expected us to use.

Toing the line that other men said we must in order to be perceived as true and righteous Christians is man worship.

Do you even know the gifts God gave us? Are you saying that the Bible is a work of man that we can choose the parts we agree with and discard the rest,‘it’s up to us? If so, where does God ever say this?

 

[ElishaElijah]

I don't see you looking. If you were, you would be able to answer the questions asked of you and not have to go through all these twists and turns running from your obligation to do so.

Brother I’m on course and seems like you’re trying to squirm your way out of bearing your cross, following Jesus and living a crucified life set apart and Holy to the Lord. You may lose some friends and likes in here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You’re running brother, that is obvious,

You are the runner here. Well established in the evidence of this thread. But if it makes you feel better, you can believe that you aren't.

if you’re a believer then we should have common ground of truth that we have experienced from God Himself but we don’t have that here, why is that?

If you are a believer and have the Holy Spirit in you, then you can support your claims with beautiful evidence instead of doing all you can to twist and turn from that and make this about me. I've held up very well from all I've read here. My guide as blessed me well tonight from my perspective.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Brother I’m on course and seems like you’re trying to squirm your way out of bearing your cross, following Jesus and living a crucified life set apart and Holy to the Lord. You may lose some friends and likes in here.

Not hardly. Were you, I would not have had to take you this far. But I realize you are not going to address the claims you have made. I'll pray for you. Perhaps you will find the guidance you so clearly need.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Brother I’m on course and seems like you’re trying to squirm your way out of bearing your cross, following Jesus and living a crucified life set apart and Holy to the Lord. You may lose some friends and likes in here.

Here's what I think these last posts mean. I think you are ready to give up, because no matter which way you twisted, there I am. This is just your wild shot over your shoulder as you ride off as fast as you can so to speak.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are many original manuscripts that back up the Bible, but hey you can believe or not believe. That’s why there are believers and unbelievers.

There are no original manuscripts that date the Pentateuch, Torah, and the New Testament.

The Dead Sea scrolls are the oldest manuscripts for the Torah are the Dead Sea scrolls. As far as projected dating of Torah texts it is 600 BCE and later,

As far as the New Testament there are no known texts before 200 AD. and not independent references during the life of Jesus that confirm Jesus ever existed.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Brother I’m on course and seems like you’re trying to squirm your way out of bearing your cross, following Jesus and living a crucified life set apart and Holy to the Lord. You may lose some friends and likes in here.

I think I bear my cross rather well. After all, I didn't make your claims and then spend the entire evening not defending them in any way. I wonder about witness like that and how someone can think it is worthy and good.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Not hardly. Were you, I would not have had to take you this far. But I realize you are not going to address the claims you have made. I'll pray for you. Perhaps you will find the guidance you so clearly need.

Who are you praying to? How you going to prove you’re a Christian? All the proof and objective evidence is at the White Throne judgement.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Brother I’m on course and seems like you’re trying to squirm your way out of bearing your cross, following Jesus and living a crucified life set apart and Holy to the Lord. You may lose some friends and likes in here.

I notice that not once have I claimed you were not Christian. I don't pretend to have that ability or that I speak for God regarding the sincerity of another's faith. You'll have to explain to me how it seems you think you do.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I notice that not once have I claimed you were not Christian. I don't pretend to have that ability or that I speak for God regarding the sincerity of another's faith. You'll have to explain to me how it seems you think you do.

The Bible is the judge, the Word of God, why do I have to repeat this so many times?

”For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Who are you praying to? How you going to prove you’re a Christian? All the proof and objective evidence is at the White Throne judgement.

You have to ask?

Well, I know I'm Christian. I accept your word that you are. You may not be for all I know.

Claims of evidence and proof require a demonstration that you have made clear you cannot provide and know this only as something you believe without evidence to demonstrate to others.

Remember? You've been going in this circle the entire evening.