But don't call them concentration camps

[Shad]

This number wouldn't have anything to do with the unprecedented increase in unaccompanied minors attempting to cross the border does it? It's at an all time high apparently, far more people=far more deaths but overall is it really an unprecedented increase in deaths or just about on par with the numbers in previous years?
We are talking about people that very well are suffering from dehydration, after effects of heat related injuries, malnourishment etc. from their journey or already sick to begin with. Just because they happen to die on our side of the fence does not automatically mean we were responsible for their deaths, there are a lot of factors in this.

The list is mostly of adults that had medical issues before crossing the border with "advocates" claiming X, Y and Z.

 

[Shad]

But again, the fact remains that the current punishment is what is assigned those crimes. The punishment needn't be what it currently is. That is fact.

What are your alternatives?

And those institutions (supposedly) are to be representative of "we."

Yes as representatives not as majority rule. You, citizens, vote for a platform not someone that follows the whims of the masses 24/7.

 

[Valjean]

They do not want to face the consequences of their previous actions. Nothing more

If their previous actions were right and proper, what consequences are we talking about -- being helpless and vulnerable to criminals and exploiters, or arrested by ICE?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

What are your alternatives?

How about something worked out with Mexico, whereby we return the people, forcibly, who are then fined by their own government (incentive for Mexico to "play along" perhaps)? If they can't pay the fine, then perhaps some kind of work program for them to "pay off" the debt another way. Infrastructure work already being/needing done, or something along those lines. And any repeat offenders are then immediately jailed, having been warned the first time. My point being, these are likely just regular folks in most instances, who aren't necessarily destined for jail time for any other crime.

Yes as representatives not as majority rule. You, citizens, vote for a platform not someone that follows the whims of the masses 24/7.

As if I didn't understand this. I'm only saying, with this, that change is possible. You, on the other hand, seem to be advocating for simply accepting defeat if one feels defeated. But probably only so long as their opinion differs from yours.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You mean like how in Nazi concentration camps, Jews weren't worried about getting soap, but being made into it?

What' your point? "Attrocities are OK as long as we can point to someone who had it worse"?

 

[Tumah]

What' your point? "Attrocities are OK as long as we can point to someone who had it worse"?

Yeah of course, isn't that obvious. As long as it's not straw men, it's totally fine.

Alternatively, it might be morally objectionable to lessen the degree of atrociousness of a particular atrocity by comparing it to another atrocity that in no way hits in the same ball park. There's a reason why we don't call school shooters "bullies". I think we can all agree that there is something wrong happening here. But you're degrading the severity of the Nazi and other similarly severe concentration camp and the people who went through it, by comparing it to these immigrant camps. 'They weren't given toiletries' vs. 'they were made into toiletries'. If you can't see the difference - or if you phrase the issue in a way that blurs the difference, you're doing something wrong.

Read the Wiki article on the Hoeryong concentration camp, is that the conditions these immigrants are going through? Can you imagine someone familiar with the conditions here hears that there were concentration camps in North Korea. "Oh yeah, we have those. Can you imagine? No toiletries, cement beds, truly inhuman conditions!".

Don't get me wrong (as you'd clearly like to). Having young children or even adults sleep on cold slabs of stones every night is a terrible breach of humanitarian conditions. No government should be able to get away with forcing those conditions on anyone. But I don't think drawing the comparison really expresses the vital urgency for help these North Koreans had. I don't think a comparison to the living conditions in Nazi concentration camps in any way resembles the the severity of the conditions these families are going through.

What this type of comparison does do, is diminish the extent subhuman cruelty can reach. Human can get so bad that they'll make children put their blankets and pillows down on stone floors to sleep and then not give them tooth brushes. No. 'People' can get so bad that their victims will spend each and every morning wondering if they'll be shot, poisoned or tortured that day, while subsiding on a single bowl of soup, working 20 hours a day in the freezing European winters with nothing but a worn shirt and pants, having seen the rest of their family murdered in cold blood in front of their eyes. They can kill 31 people because one of them tried to escape. They can force a human to stand on his tip-toes for 24 hours with water up to his nose. They can practice their surgical techniques on children. When you draw a parallel between these conditions and those, you're the one hurting people. You're teaching them to forget the lessons of the past, the true depths of inhumanity that people can reach. "This is the direction that Nazi Germany/North Korea took! Take care that we don't follow their path!", maybe. "This is like Nazi Germany/North Korea!", no. No, not at all.

 

[Shad]

If their previous actions were right and proper, what consequences are we talking about -- being helpless and vulnerable to criminals and exploiters, or arrested by ICE?

By avoiding law enforcement, immigration and/or asylum procedure they establish that this is not the case nor their intent

 

[Shad]

How about something worked out with Mexico, whereby we return the people, forcibly, who are then fined by their own government (incentive for Mexico to "play along" perhaps)?

Dems are against this and the required steps of detention and processing. Hence why they shot down funding in April. Mexico gets 87 billion in foreign aid from the us alone so they can use the money already provided.

If they can't pay the fine, then perhaps some kind of work program for them to "pay off" the debt another way.

Just deport them. I do not care about a fine of a few hundred dollars for the first offense

Infrastructure work already being/needing done, or something along those lines.

No foreign labour is required. Beside this would only work for manual labour otherwise the individual in question would have a valid reason for applying for a visa ie skilled labour.

And any repeat offenders are then immediately jailed, having been warned the first time. My point being, these are likely just regular folks in most instances, who aren't necessarily destined for jail time for any other crime.

Citizens are not avoiding law enforcement due to their status as citizens. That is why detention is used as illegals already ignore the law. Also a flight risk

As if I didn't understand this. I'm only saying, with this, that change is possible. You, on the other hand, seem to be advocating for simply accepting defeat if one feels defeated. But probably only so long as their opinion differs from yours.

Your changes are not actual changes but what the system already does minus the time and delay factors within the exist system.

 

[Valjean]

By avoiding law enforcement, immigration and/or asylum procedure they establish that this is not the case nor their intent

But most of the refugees aren't avoiding law enforcement, they're presenting themselves and requesting political asylum.
As for the immigration procedure, this often takes 20 years of hearings and paperwork.. An imminent threat won't wait 20 years.
It's a parent's duty to protect his/her children, by any means necessary. If they cannot do this legally, they have a duty do do it illegally.

 

[Shad]

But most of the refugees aren't avoiding law enforcement, they're presenting themselves and requesting political asylum.
As for the immigration procedure, this often takes 20 years of hearings and paperwork.. An imminent threat won't wait 20 years.

Claiming X is not the same as being X. Everyone can claim this and is doing so these days. Bad-faith actors ruined it for the rest. This is the measure taken to resolve issues of false claims and release.

sIt's a parent's duty to protect his/her children, by any means necessary. If they cannot do this legally, they have a duty do do it illegally.

Claims of X is not the same as being X.

Mexico is considered a safe country by asylum standards. Ergo they are safe in Mexico but want the perks of the US. Economic migrants.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Just deport them. I do not care about a fine of a few hundred dollars for the first offense.

No foreign labour is required. Beside this would only work for manual labour otherwise the individual in question would have a valid reason for applying for a visa ie skilled labour.

You misunderstood, the fining would go into Mexico's coffers, and the labor be done on Mexican soil, as an incentive to get their government to "buy in" to any changes in policy.

 

[icehorse]

Well , start a toothbrush and soap drive.

I wonder if you can summarize how your post is consistent with Zen Buddhism?

 

[icehorse]

"The Trump administration went to court this week to argue that migrant children detained at the United States-Mexico border do not require basic hygiene products like soap and toothbrushes in order to be in held in "safe and sanitary" conditions. Trump's team also argued that requiring minors to sleep on cold concrete floors in crowded cells with low temperatures similarly fulfilled that requirement." Trump administration argues in court that detained migrant children don't need toothbrushes or soap and they can sleep on concrete floors

I keenly await the arrival of the resident Trumpettes and Usual Suspects to explain how questioning unnecessary, blatant cruelty to children means you support "open borders" or "hate America".

A bit of a hi-jack, I apologize.

Imagine this situation at the border and multiply it by a thousand. Try to imagine what the world will be like as a BILLION people get displaced because of rising sea levels.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I wonder if you can summarize how your post is consistent with Zen Buddhism?

Start a toothbrush and soap drive.

 

[Shad]

You misunderstood, the fining would go into Mexico's coffers, and the labor be done on Mexican soil, as an incentive to get their government to "buy in" to any changes in policy.

Forced labour is forced labour. Mexico does not have the money to pay the fines when it needs foreign aid. Might as well just take the fine out of foreign aid instead of just being paid with the US's own money.

 

[metis]

Let's not kid ourselves here by getting hung up on semantics-- what we are using at our southern border are basically concentration camps, and they are unethical by any moral standard that I can think of. And this was not done by accident as Trump has admitted he purposefully did this to "send a message". When warned by the CBP that they would need more judges and lawyers, along with more agents at checkpoints, to handle the extra case-load, but Trump just blew them off.

And now he wants "thousands" arrested in a sweep, that is going to make matters far worse if it's carried out. Already we're overloaded with these camps, and he wants "thousands" more!

So why is he doing these atrocious things? One, he is a racist. Two, he is heavy into nativism, although he doesn't appear to understand that European-Americans ain't native to the Americas. Three, he's swinging into campaign mode, although one could legitimately argue that he never left the 2016 campaign. Fourth, he panders to a large part of his base that isn't much different than he is.

But another thing has become clear, and that is he's shown the shallowness of so many of his supporters that have basically abandoned the teachings of their religion/denomination in order to blindly follow him, and they make any excuse for his immoral actions.

 

[SugarOcean]

One would hope reporting agencies would have the education necessary so as to know better than to claim border detention is equivalent even by allusion to concentration camps. But the concentration camp lie helps to fuel the leftists who falsely equate Trump to Hitler, so it seems to be a plausible narrative for those inclined to prefer fake news. While being entirely ignorant of history. Including what exactly defined a concentration camp.
That's why such falsehood reporting is called, Yellow Journalism.

Trump didn't sign the bill that would separate illegal alien adults from the minor children in their custody.
Breaking our laws has consequences. Criminals are detained. But Trump isn't the one that made this possible.
During Obama's terms in office offenses against illegals made news under his orders. But no one wants to recall that because Obama isn't in office now. However, what is transpiring at the border is in part Obama's responsibility so he is still in the picture regardless.

Who’s Responsible for Separating Alien Kids From Their Parents? Many People, but Not Trump

Just like this latest story. Left slant media counts on Trump-haters forgetting 2018 news of this nature. Because Trump haters prefer , "It's Trump's Fault!" , to truth.

Warren, 2020 Dems target private immigration detention center operators
BY RAFAEL BERNAL - 11/16/18

© Stefani Reynolds
A group of Democratic senators led by Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) sent out letters Friday to three private immigration detention center contractors, demanding information on their allegedly poor conditions.

The Democrats wrote that it is “unclear” whether CoreCivic, The GEO Group and The Nakamoto Group are each “serving as a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars.”

CoreCivic and GEO operate detention facilities, while Nakamoto has a federal contract to inspect conditions in detention facilities.


The senators pointed to a September report by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Office of Inspector General (OIG) that painted a stark picture of conditions in several ICE detention facilities.

Facilities were found to have old and moldy food, to lack adequate medical treatment and to present significant delays in getting detainees basic hygiene products, such as toilet paper. [FULL Article]

 

[metis]

One would hope reporting agencies would have the education necessary so as to know better than to claim border detention is equivalent even by allusion to concentration camps. But the concentration camp lie helps to fuel the leftists who falsely equate Trump to Hitler, so it seems to be a plausible narrative for those inclined to prefer fake news. While being entirely ignorant of history. Including what exactly defined a concentration camp.
That's why such falsehood reporting is called, Yellow Journalism.

Trump didn't sign the bill that would separate illegal alien adults from the minor children in their custody.
Breaking our laws has consequences. Criminals are detained. But Trump isn't the one that made this possible.
During Obama's terms in office offenses against illegals made news under his orders. But no one wants to recall that because Obama isn't in office now. However, what is transpiring at the border is in part Obama's responsibility so he is still in the picture regardless.

Who’s Responsible for Separating Alien Kids From Their Parents? Many People, but Not Trump

Just like this latest story. Left slant media counts on Trump-haters forgetting 2018 news of this nature. Because Trump haters prefer , "It's Trump's Fault!" , to truth.

Warren, 2020 Dems target private immigration detention center operators
BY RAFAEL BERNAL - 11/16/18

© Stefani Reynolds
A group of Democratic senators led by Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) sent out letters Friday to three private immigration detention center contractors, demanding information on their allegedly poor conditions.

The Democrats wrote that it is “unclear” whether CoreCivic, The GEO Group and The Nakamoto Group are each “serving as a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars.”

CoreCivic and GEO operate detention facilities, while Nakamoto has a federal contract to inspect conditions in detention facilities.


The senators pointed to a September report by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Office of Inspector General (OIG) that painted a stark picture of conditions in several ICE detention facilities.

Facilities were found to have old and moldy food, to lack adequate medical treatment and to present significant delays in getting detainees basic hygiene products, such as toilet paper. [FULL Article]

You might check back as some previous posts explain why the use of "concentration camps" may fit the definition, plus why what happened with detentions of those seeking asylum during the Obama administration that simply was not the same as what the Trump administration has been doing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So, your argument is that until things are as bad for people as Nazi Germany was for the Jews no one has anything to complain about, right? That's what you're implying.

Children sleeping on concrete floors in any instance - without even a way to provide or find better sleeping conditions for themselves - sure sounds like a situation that should be fixed. I assume it doesn't to you?

I just read an interesting article on the subject, that speaks to what you've touched on here.

The Unimaginable Reality of American Concentration Camps

 

[SkepticThinker]

What do you do the day America is the one who need help and you must find a New country to live in?

And what are we going to do as climate change wreaks even greater havoc on our habitable areas and there are even greater mass migrations of people around the globe when we can't even handle this? Everyone thinks it won't be them, until it is.