But don't call them concentration camps

[Tumah]

Then don't call them "illegals".

Can you paste the relevant legal code that describes their status?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

No, I'm saying I don't know the answer to your question.
If one enters the country illegally but with intent to seek asylum is one legally defined as an illegal alien or an asylum seeker or both?
I do not know.

Shouldn't you at least have some knowledge of the laws regarding refugees and/or asylum seekers before you make any personal judgement as to whether they are illegal?

I am not going to say this is bearing false witness but it seems to me like you have been bearing false witness by saying they are illegal.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Can you paste the relevant legal code that describes their status?

Why? You just admitted you didn't know. As such, you shouldn't be calling them illegals. It's not up to me to do your homework for you.

 

[Tumah]

Children, Tumah. This thread focused upon children, and treatment of children.

At this time treatment of children is being reviewed most closely. FGM where I live is now an Indictable Offence. I mentioned this to you are then added that 'Boys could be protected next'.

Attitudes are changing. It's true.

I see.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Can you paste the relevant legal code that describes their status?

Google is at your fingertips.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No, I'm saying I don't know the answer to your question.
If one enters the country illegally but with intent to seek asylum is one legally defined as an illegal alien or an asylum seeker or both?
I do not know.

Then maybe you should find out before slapping dehumanising labels on children?

 

[Tumah]

Shouldn't you at least have some knowledge of the laws regarding refugees and/or asylum seekers before you make any personal judgement as to whether they are illegal?

I'm not sure that I'd have said I'm making a personal judgement as this is a question of their legal definition. But you're right, I did assume that if the government is holding them, it must hold that legally they are illegal aliens. I guess that doesn't have to be the case.

I am not going to say this is bearing false witness but it seems to me like you have been bearing false witness by saying they are illegal.

It sounds like you're trying to accuse me of the 9th commandment, so I'll just point out that you can't bear false witness outside a legal situation in Judaism. You have to be testifying about something, not simply presenting an argument.

 

[oldbadger]

Sure. Sleeping on cold concrete floors with pillows and blankets in cold weather in slightly crowded conditions. And no toothbrushes and soap.
People do this all the time as a recreational activity when they go camping or hunting. ..............................

Tumah! Are you actually supporting such treatment of children today?

Sleeping on concrete is very very bad for any body. Not only is it very uncomfortable but it saps all warmth straight out of a body. And all and any children need to be given provsion for cleaned teeth and bodies.

The thing is, that where people try to support or justify such treatment of minors, this can be a gauge on their attitudes to child protection in all and other areas.

Don't sleep on concrete, Tumah. Just..... don't. You could regret it very much, even if you are a fine example of tough manhood.

 

[Tumah]

Google is at your fingertips.

Unauthorised arrival into another country may be prompted by the need to escape civil war or repression in the country of origin. However, somebody who flees such a situation is in most countries under no circumstances an undocumented immigrant. If victims of forced displacement apply for asylum in the country they fled to and are granted refugee status they have the right to remain permanently. If asylum seekers are not granted some kind of legal protection status, then they may have to leave the country, or stay as illegal immigrants.

According to the 1951 Refugee Convention refugees should be exempted from immigration laws and should expect protection from the country they entered.[55] It is, however, up to the countries involved to decide if a particular immigrant is a refugee or not, and hence whether they are subject to the immigration controls. Furthermore, countries that did not sign the 1951 Refugee Convention or do not attempt to follow its guidelines are likely to consider refugees and asylum seekers as illegal immigrants.
-source​

Do you have something more relevant?

 

[Tumah]

Then maybe you should find out before slapping dehumanising labels on children?

Is there something you find dehumanizing about being made to do something illegal or having an illegal status?

 

[Tumah]

Tumah! Are you actually supporting such treatment of children today?

Sleeping on concrete is very very bad for any body. Not only is it very uncomfortable but it saps all warmth straight out of a body. And all and any children need to be given provsion for cleaned teeth and bodies.

The thing is, that where people try to support or justify such treatment of minors, this can be a gauge on their attitudes to child protection in all and other areas.

Don't sleep on concrete, Tumah. Just..... don't. You could regret it very much, even if you are a fine example of tough manhood.

Of course not. Go back to my earlier posts in this thread.

 

[oldbadger]

So you're saying that you think "illegals" is dehumanizing...but not because you think doing something illegal or being of illegal status is less human.

Are you sure that's your position?

The above was sent to another.

In the context of any young children, the term 'Illegals' is a total and absolte contradiction of any Western Legislation that I know of.

It is impossible for a child to be 'illegal' since all young children are incapable of any illegal, unlawful or criminal behaviour. Young children are considered to be in a condition of 'high risk' when not with their parents or guardians, and in a foreign country, alone, frightened, insecure and seeking refuge/protection/succour they certainly cannot be considered as 'Illegals' in any way.

This kind of treatment reminds me of stories about the Nazis and their treatment of children that were disabled, or gypsies, or blacks, or Jews, or Eastern Europeans etc

Empathy is required here, strong voices and the strong opinions of that country's more decent people.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Is there something you find dehumanizing about being made to do something illegal or having an illegal status?

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Not playing, sorry.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The above was sent to another.

In the context of any young children, the term 'Illegals' is a total and absolte contradiction of any Western Legislation that I know of.

It is impossible for a child to be 'illegal' since all young children are incapable of any illegal, unlawful or criminal behaviour. Young children are considered to be in a condition of 'high risk' when not with their parents or guardians, and in a foreign country, alone, frightened, insecure and seeking refuge/protection/succour they certainly cannot be considered as 'Illegals' in any way.

This kind of treatment reminds me of stories about the Nazis and their treatment of children that were disabled, or gypsies, or blacks, or Jews, or Eastern Europeans etc

Empathy is required here, strong voices and the strong opinions of that country's more decent people.

I assume the irony of a "Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox J(ew)" enabling and apologising for this stuff is lost on him.

 

[oldbadger]

Of course not. Go back to my earlier posts in this thread.

Good....... Sorted.

I need to include @Kangaroo Feathers here because the BBC is reporting right now that 6 kids have died in these camps that it knows about and a score of adults in other camps.

It now looks as if the whole International scene is talking about the carelessness of these camps for both kids and adults. One Journalist has already referred to the term 'Nazi death camps' which I know is cheap and nasty but I do wonder why a Western country would stick its neck out to give the press such opportunities?

So from a humanitarian point of view it look like several breaches of human rights laws (if the US has any like us here) and on the diplomatic side of things it's just totally incompetent.

These won't open unless you copy/paste the links in to google.

'Some Suburb of Hell': America's New Concentration Camp System ...
https://www.nybooks.com/.../some-suburb-of-hell-americas-new-concentration-camp-...
5 days ago - Less publicized have been the deaths of twenty-four adults in ICE custody ... and Border Protection detention center, El Paso, Texas, March 27, 2019 .... A mother and child in a concentration camp built by the British to hold ...

Migrant Children Imprisoned in Texas Detail Border Patrol's "Level of ...
https://www.commondreams.org/.../migrant-children-imprisoned-texas-detail-border-...
5 days ago - "In my 22 years of doing visits with children in detention I have never ... death of individuals held in immigration detention facilities in the United States." ... building more concentration camps for holding minors in advance of ...

Editorial: Don't look away from concentration camps at the border ...
https://www.ncronline.org/news/.../editorial-dont-look-away-concentration-camps-bor...
19 Jun 2019 - Editorial: Don't look away from concentration camps at the border ... at a Catholic-run shelter in Laredo, Texas, for asylum-seekers released ... plus at least five deaths of children in other detention facilities during the Trump administration. ... Without diminishing the extreme horror of Nazi death camps, more ...

 

[oldbadger]

Why? You just admitted you didn't know. As such, you shouldn't be calling them illegals. It's not up to me to do your homework for you.

Yep. That's gotta be right.
A child separated from parents has got to be treated as 'lost' by any caring community. Most of those children will never have been apart from family and the stresses and tensions which will be present are nearly as damaging as any physical harm which they are being subjected to.

Thing is.... I don't automatically trust all supervisors in any care conditions, whether it's elderly, dementia, young offenders, Foster carers..... you name it. And some of the staff in these camps are going to be hot against immigrants and I don't reckon that they will have been filtered out of any induction system.

What are the chances that in a month, year, decade we're going to be hearing about some pretty dreadful experiences that happened in these places, because if they're being put down on concrete and refused soap and other stuff...... yeah......... just watch that space.

Bloody dreadful............ and that's probably a literal description.

 

[Altfish]

The Independent in the UK is headlining with this story...

Are these your ‘animals’, Mr Trump? Graphic photo of drowned father and daughter at US border prompt outrage

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The Independent in the UK is headlining with this story...

Are these your ‘animals’, Mr Trump? Graphic photo of drowned father and daughter at US border prompt outrage

Well, see, the fix there is, stop humanising them with terms like "father" or "daughter", and start using dehumanising terms like "illegals", or "animals", or "cockroaches", and before you know it, everyone will stop caring. Problem solved!

It's all about controlling narrative. Killing children by neglect in concentration camps during ethnic cleansing? People are outraged. Illegal dies while at a processing facility during a law enforcement operation targeting criminals? Increase in popularity ranking. Exact same event, described two different ways. And guess what? It's working. Just look at our resident Trumpettes and Usual Suspects actively cheering on the creeping fascism. People are already dying, and these useful idiots and enablers want to debate semantics rather than admit there's a problem.

 

[Altfish]

Well, see, the fix there is, stop humanising them with terms like "father" or "daughter", and start using dehumanising terms like "illegals", or "animals", or "cockroaches", and before you know it, everyone will stop caring. Problem solved!

It's all about controlling narrative. Killing children by neglect in concentration camps during ethnic cleansing? People are outraged. Illegal dies while at a processing facility during a law enforcement operation targeting criminals? Increase in popularity ranking. Exact same event, described two different ways. And guess what? It's working. Just look at our resident Trumpettes and Usual Suspects actively cheering on the creeping fascism. People are already dying, and these useful idiots and enablers want to debate semantics rather than admit there's a problem.

That reads callous
If you call a child an 'illegal' then everything is fine - not in my world it isn't

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Unauthorised arrival into another country may be prompted by the need to escape civil war or repression in the country of origin. However, somebody who flees such a situation is in most countries under no circumstances an undocumented immigrant. If victims of forced displacement apply for asylum in the country they fled to and are granted refugee status they have the right to remain permanently. If asylum seekers are not granted some kind of legal protection status, then they may have to leave the country, or stay as illegal immigrants.

According to the 1951 Refugee Convention refugees should be exempted from immigration laws and should expect protection from the country they entered.[55] It is, however, up to the countries involved to decide if a particular immigrant is a refugee or not, and hence whether they are subject to the immigration controls. Furthermore, countries that did not sign the 1951 Refugee Convention or do not attempt to follow its guidelines are likely to consider refugees and asylum seekers as illegal immigrants.
-source​

Do you have something more relevant?

Yeah,it is in red. Looks like those poor people awaiting the government to determine their status aren't illegal