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Business values are not compatible with Healthcare values

I wouldn't disagree but as any basic course in economics teaches, "savings" in one place, mirrors debt in another place.

Except that America pays more public money for healthcare than almost every universal healthcare society in the world.

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg


(and not having to worry about your family's healthcare is good to encourage entrepreneurial risk taking for obvious reasons)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I'll cite Xerox PARC as an excellent example of invention. And then NASA and the JPL. As for innovations how about Apple?
NASA has invented many things, but it wasn't the profit motive that drove NASA's inventiveness. For that one, we'll have to divide credit between love of science and national pride, because the USSR was leading the space race for quiet awhile. Maybe profits drove some in America, but Russia did make the bigger bomb.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
I am in complete agreement with what you said. I should add as well that without profit being a factor, healthcare costs would overall be cheaper and the quality of the healthcare itself will improve.

The capitalists want a tight hold on the healthcare system as they know it is something that people NEED. If they can tap into it, they have a guaranteed income...
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Except that America pays more public money for healthcare than almost every universal healthcare society in the world.

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg


(and not having to worry about your family's healthcare is good to encourage entrepreneurial risk taking for obvious reasons)

I think that ties back in with what I said about profit. We have (or should I say "had") a mixed healthcare system, not a fully socialized one. Also, we have a higher population and thus a larger amount of money (albeit very poorly distributed).
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The capitalists want a tight hold on the healthcare system as they know it is something that people NEED. If they can tap into it, they have a guaranteed income...
If they loose control over health care, hold onto your water rights with the grip of nothing less durable than at least a diamond.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Except that America pays more public money for healthcare than almost every universal healthcare society in the world.

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg


(and not having to worry about your family's healthcare is good to encourage entrepreneurial risk taking for obvious reasons)
That illustrates the problem since not every one of those nations has a single-payer system. The trick is to structure the system to reward positive behavior, healthy outcomes at a reasonable price, and punish negative behavior, the current system.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
NASA has invented many things, but it wasn't the profit motive that drove NASA's inventiveness. For that one, we'll have to divide credit between love of science and national pride, because the USSR was leading the space race for quiet awhile. Maybe profits drove some in America, but Russia did make the bigger bomb.

It's a fair point, I was wondering about that after I made my post. I have a sense though that even though NASA was officially not "in business", they knew they would be driving a lot of business down the road.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
They don't dare address this idea because it will open a huge can of worms for the ruling oligarchy: that maximizing profits on capital investment is the primary concern fueling ALL of our nation's decision. Which makes the health and well-being of the nation's people at best an irrelevancy, and more often an obstacle to be eliminated. Once we accept the ideal that humanity is more important than profits to the capitalist investors, the whole capitalist system becomes problematic, and ultimately immoral.
While I deeply admire the gusto with which you have elucidated your points, I tend to mildly disagree. I cannot count the times I've said that the biggest problem with the American system is that it is a for profit business model. To my Canadian sensitivities, running a medical facility as a business is a distinct conflict of interest. That said, I'll keep my waiting lists and my hefty taxes in order to ovoid having my bank accounts emasculated if I fall ill. That said, I see this as more of an inappropriate use of capitalism but think that that is no reason to throw out capitalism altogether. Babies and bathwater come to mind.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I just heard this claim on NPR's Sunday weekend edition.

I think this is a REALLY powerful perspective. Big business is running much of healthcare in the U.S. and this fact seems to be "the elephant in the room" as the debates concerning the ACA vs. the AHCA, rage in Washington. Very few of our "leaders" are addressing this truth, that business values and healthcare values are not compatible.

By definition, when all of our leaders ignore this problem, what they debate on the topic will be suspect.
I'm not surprised that NPR would dis business in praise of increased government largesse.
But I remember back in the day when businesses generally provided fantastic medical
benefits far far in excess of what government required. I had whad today might be
called platinum status working for Northrop, Black & Decker, Koppers Co, Knorr Bremse, etc.
(Back before I switched from employee to contractor/consultant status.)
Were business & great bennies incompatible, this would never have been the case.

NPR.....relentless cheerleaders for big government they are.
They trumpet how the deliver unbiased news for us to discover our own perspective.
Nah. They give their own opinions, & cover that which serves their agendas.
Note that the above isn't a severe criticism.....it would describe many news sources.

The economic climate regarding health care has changed much since I was a lowly employee.
Many of the larger companies still offer fancy meical bennies, but I notice that smaller
companies are finding this increasingly difficult.
I offer no explanation or solution.
 
Last edited:

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I'm not surprised that NPR would dis business in praise of increased government largesse.
But I remember back in the day when businesses generally provided fantastic medical
benefits far far in excess of what government required. I had whad today might be
called platinum status working for Northrop, Black & Decker, Koppers Co, Knorr Bremse, etc.
(Back before I switched from employee to contractor/consultant status.)
Were business & great bennies incompatible, this would never have been the case.

NPR.....relentless cheerleaders for big government they are.
They trumpet how the deliver unbiased news for us to discover our own perspective.
Nah. They give their own opinions, & cover that which serves their agendas.
Note that the above isn't a severe criticism.....it would describe many news sources.

The economic climate regarding health care has changed much since I was a lowly employee.
Many of the larger companies still offer fancy meical bennies, but I notice that smaller
companies are finding this increasingly difficult.
I offer no explanation or solution.
Some facts rather than internet opinion - NPR is slightly left but not very

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbe...es-it-nprs-liberal-but-not-very/#4dbf3ea52a5b
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I thought I pretty clearly elaborated on why I disagree with the claim made in the title.

My summary of your post is:

1 - you don't think NPR is unbiased
2 - large companies used to offer great health benefits.

Neither of those was the point of the OP.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My summary of your post is:

1 - you don't think NPR is unbiased
2 - large companies used to offer great health benefits.

Neither of those was the point of the OP.
Your summary is incomplete.
Large companies still offer health benefits better than required by law.
This disproves the claim of the OP (as I read it).
I cannot think of a clearer way to restate it.
So rather than derail (as you believe) your thread, I'll bow out.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's a fair point, I was wondering about that after I made my post. I have a sense though that even though NASA was officially not "in business", they knew they would be driving a lot of business down the road.
No doubt. But it's also why I bring up Soviet Russia. If anything, I would say a profit incentive for inventiveness may have potential in those who are good at seeing problems and issues and coming up with solutions that are not necessarily practical and, obviously, will require some new product to address the problem. But, other than that, I don't see a great potential for driving artistic innovation (and, contrary, the past few decades strongly suggest is stifles artistic creativity), driving scientific innovation (so many left such strong evidence they were driven by science - or war, something that really drives inventiveness, including NASA), and of course it won't drive innovation for creating pragmatic solutions for an issue like the steam engine did. And of course we know the Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks and others were inventing stuff and probably even had inventions that have been completely lost to time. It's why I doubt this idea of profit being the best way to motivate and drive inventiveness, and see it as nothing more than Capitalist propaganda. It may drive creativeness to create menial and distractive junk, but in regards to inventiveness that had meaningful and significant impacts on society, I would have to say necessity and war are the two biggest and most efficient motivators. Throughout the duration of our history, we find time and time again, we find need and war driving innovation, with educated urban settlements being able to create more novel inventions (such as Roman plumbing and baths). Which probably creates the third biggest driver, our sense of novelty and appreciation of it.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Your summary is incomplete.
Large companies still offer health benefits better than required by law.
This disproves the claim of the OP (as I read it).
I cannot think of a clearer way to restate it.
So rather than derail (as you believe) your thread, I'll bow out.

I hope you don't bow out. It seems to me that you're arguing a different point? I *think* what you're saying is that some big companies - offer as a part of their compensation packages - good medical benefits. If that's your claim, I agree, but it misses the point of the OP - which was that healthcare companies are too motivated by profit to provide ideal healthcare.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I hope you don't bow out. It seems to me that you're arguing a different point? I *think* what you're saying is that some big companies - offer as a part of their compensation packages - good medical benefits. If that's your claim, I agree, but it misses the point of the OP - which was that healthcare companies are too motivated by profit to provide ideal healthcare.
We're at an impasse.
I say I addressed it.
You say I didn't.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
While I deeply admire the gusto with which you have elucidated your points, I tend to mildly disagree. I cannot count the times I've said that the biggest problem with the American system is that it is a for profit business model. To my Canadian sensitivities, running a medical facility as a business is a distinct conflict of interest. That said, I'll keep my waiting lists and my hefty taxes in order to ovoid having my bank accounts emasculated if I fall ill. That said, I see this as more of an inappropriate use of capitalism but think that that is no reason to throw out capitalism altogether. Babies and bathwater come to mind.
I think you are confusing capitalism with capital investment. The difference is that capitalism is an economic system that gives all the economic decision-making power to the capital investor. And in a culture where money has come to represent well-being, that means the capital investor is making all the decision relevant to well-being based on his singular desire to maximize the return on the capital he's invested. This is an irrational and dysfunctional methodology, which is why in the wealthiest nation of Earth, the general well-being of the people living in it is declining progressively and dramatically.

The only way to resolve this is to stop allowing the capital investors make decisions regarding the well-being of the human beings living within the economic system. And that means the end of 'capitalism'. It does not, however, have to mean the end of capital investment. Nor do it mean that the only other alternative is communist socialism. It simply means that everyone involved in a commercial enterprise needs to be represented when decisions are being made regarding that commercial enterprise. It also means that not all social enterprise should be engaged in for commercial profit. Health care being one of these.
 
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