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Boy, These Days Evolution Just Can't Seem To Catch A Break

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's easy to revise history, where do you think the idea of all men created equal came from. It wasn't from the people driving slaves,
Not from a religion who's gods book says you can own slaves and beat them, kill rebellious kids, kill apostates, and that women are not to "usurp authority" from a man. All men are created equal came from the enlightened ideas of natural law. Not Jehovahs law that allows women to be killed if they aren't virgins on their wedding night.
 

JasAnMa

Member
I maintain it's extremely important where the idea of good comes from. If good comes from God then it is universal and doesn't change. If it comes from man then there are no absolutes thereby"good" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no real way to to say whether anything at all is good or bad. Id also like to clarify that I know the colonists came here to flee religious persecution and absolutely forbade a mandatory religion for this country. But they absolutely did found most of the laws on the Bible, but more specifically the Torah. Even Jefferson and Adams wanted to emulate what God did through the Jews and how He set up their country. As far as the Scotsman fallacy....I have no interest in throwing memorized "answers" on this forum to win an argument. I actually hate arguing with people but the only way to know wether I'm right is to look at an issue from all possible angles and debate happens to be the best way to do that. I'm actually seeking the truth the best I know how. I think history shows that slave in the Bible and slave in early America were in no way the same thing. Also, the no true Scotsman fallacy is an unfalsifiable blanket statement. I'm not saying no Christian would own a slave....I will say most often three word slave in the Bible is more akin to our word servant. This is a falsifiable claim. You don't have to believe it but it happens to be true. It's very easy to find historical documents demonstrating the influence of the Torah on the founding of this country.
 

JasAnMa

Member
Not from a religion who's gods book says you can own slaves and beat them, kill rebellious kids, kill apostates, and that women are not to "usurp authority" from a man. All men are created equal came from the enlightened ideas of natural law. Not Jehovahs law that allows women to be killed if they aren't virgins on their wedding night.
The "enlightened" natural law that the strongest survive? I find it quite odd that your arguing about the lack of morality of the Bible when random chance processes can not explain morality. You can argue the evolving social morality I hear so much about but there have been millions murdered this century on the idea that morality is relative. And from that world view there is no objective way to say those murders were bad.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The "enlightened" natural law that the strongest survive? I find it quite odd that your arguing about the lack of morality of the Bible when random chance processes can not explain morality. You can argue the evolving social morality I hear so much about but there have been millions murdered this century on the idea that morality is relative. And from that world view there is no objective way to say those murders were bad.
The theory of evolution does not claim that only the strong survive.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I maintain it's extremely important where the idea of good comes from. If good comes from God then it is universal and doesn't change. If it comes from man then there are no absolutes thereby"good" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no real way to to say whether anything at all is good or bad. Id also like to clarify that I know the colonists came here to flee religious persecution and absolutely forbade a mandatory religion for this country. But they absolutely did found most of the laws on the Bible, but more specifically the Torah. Even Jefferson and Adams wanted to emulate what God did through the Jews and how He set up their country. As far as the Scotsman fallacy....I have no interest in throwing memorized "answers" on this forum to win an argument. I actually hate arguing with people but the only way to know wether I'm right is to look at an issue from all possible angles and debate happens to be the best way to do that. I'm actually seeking the truth the best I know how. I think history shows that slave in the Bible and slave in early America were in no way the same thing. Also, the no true Scotsman fallacy is an unfalsifiable blanket statement. I'm not saying no Christian would own a slave....I will say most often three word slave in the Bible is more akin to our word servant. This is a falsifiable claim. You don't have to believe it but it happens to be true. It's very easy to find historical documents demonstrating the influence of the Torah on the founding of this country.
Morals in the Bible are not constant either. If you study the book you will find that they (pardon the expression) evolve.
 

JasAnMa

Member
Morals in the Bible are not constant either. If you study the book you will find that they (pardon the expression) evolve.
I have actually studied the Bible a bit, the laws evolved because God took His people out of bondage from a foreign land. They were in culture shock and I'm assuming laying His entire plan on them all at once would've at best been difficult.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have actually studied the Bible a bit, the laws evolved because God took His people out of bondage from a foreign land. They were in culture shock and I'm assuming laying His entire plan on them all at once would've at best been difficult.


Excuses excuses.

At any rate why would you oppose the theory of evolution?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You're right, I misspoke. The fittest, most adaptable, favorable would've all been better choices of words. My point however still stands.
It is that the best adapted to the current environment is more likely to pass on their genes. Quite a mouthful and people often prefer to oversimplify. Morals are largely a result of evolution and not from God. In fact secular morals tend to be superior to religious morals regardless of religion.
 

JasAnMa

Member
I am quite sure your mind just sees Christianity's withdrawing tide and thinks that is the ultimate sign that things are getting worse. Well it isn't. That is a myopic view that has no basis in reality.
I don't actually, there's way too many factors shaping America right now to blame everything good or bad on any one issue. I believe it is a factor... And maybe a large factor. Since 1960 violent crimes are up 200%, murder is actually the same, take is up around 32%, robbery is up about 25%, and assault is up around 60%. Those don't sound like improvements. I also don't think the millions of babies killed every year is inspiring either.
 

JasAnMa

Member
Excuses excuses.

At any rate why would you oppose the theory of evolution?
It's a reason not an excuse, t's my personal opinion based upon my hours of study. Why is it ok to point out a discrepancy but then say the response to that is an excuse? Have you actually studied the events in the Torah, because I have. If you asked why I wasn't responding to your sign language and I replied because I'm blind.... Would that too warrant the phrase excuses excuses? Just because I disagree in no way means I'm contriving rescue devices.
 

JasAnMa

Member
At any rate why would you oppose the theory of evolution?
I think that abiogenesis, and the majority of the theory of evolution as it pertains to origins is unfalsifiable, unprovable, and unrepeatable. Therefore we have left science and entered into philosophy. Insisting it is a fact is not proof and assuming it true is to the detriment of attention inquiry.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't actually, there's way too many factors shaping America right now to blame everything good or bad on any one issue. I believe it is a factor... And maybe a large factor. Since 1960 violent crimes are up 200%, murder is actually the same, take is up around 32%, robbery is up about 25%, and assault is up around 60%. Those don't sound like improvements. I also don't think the millions of babies killed every year is inspiring either.


No, crime rates peaked i nth 1980's and are almost down to 1960's level. Clearly not due to teaching evolution:

1280px-Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg.png

That is property crime, murder rates are probably very similar since they too are down since 1980:

1024px-United_States_homicide_offending_rates_by_race_1980_2008.svg.png
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think that abiogenesis, and the majority of the theory of evolution as it pertains to origins is unfalsifiable, unprovable, and unrepeatable. Therefore we have left science and entered into philosophy. Insisting it is a fact is not proof and assuming it true is to the detriment of attention inquiry.
Abiogenesis is not a theory yet, rather there are a series of hypotheses covering different steps but not the whole process. Each hypothesis is falsifiable, but there is no overarching theory of abiogenesis yet. And you could not be more wrong about the theory of evolution. It is falsifiable, but like gravity, has not been falsified in millions of tests. There are numerous ways to falsify the theory.

Now creationism is not falsifiable largely due to the work of creation "scientists". They are afraid to put their concepts in the form of a testable hypothesis.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's a reason not an excuse, t's my personal opinion based upon my hours of study. Why is it ok to point out a discrepancy but then say the response to that is an excuse? Have you actually studied the events in the Torah, because I have. If you asked why I wasn't responding to your sign language and I replied because I'm blind.... Would that too warrant the phrase excuses excuses? Just because I disagree in no way means I'm contriving rescue devices.


You were pointing out that the morals of the Bible are not absolute and giving excuses for them. There are no absolute morals. They all tend to be subjective. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. What is moral for a society that is barely surviving would not be moral for a rich and well established one.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I maintain it's extremely important where the idea of good comes from. If good comes from God then it is universal and doesn't change.
Unless God changes their mind, which - according to the Bible - they do.

See, it doesn't matter if there is or isn't a God if the only means by which to determine what they want us to do is to interpret ancient texts that make all sorts of contradictory and vague claims. Hence why, despite belief in God being prevalent among people, beliefs about exactly what God wants or what is truly moral is almost as varied as those people are.

If it comes from man then there are no absolutes thereby"good" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no real way to to say whether anything at all is good or bad.
That depends what the standard is that you use. For example, my basis for morality is based on the concept of well-being. I.E: if something negatively affects an individual's (or a group's) well-being, it is morally bad. Using this standard, it is actually quite easy to determine an objective moral value for our actions. After all, it is not "in the eye of the beholder" that decapitating my neighbour negatively impacts their well-being.

Id also like to clarify that I know the colonists came here to flee religious persecution and absolutely forbade a mandatory religion for this country. But they absolutely did found most of the laws on the Bible, but more specifically the Torah. Even Jefferson and Adams wanted to emulate what God did through the Jews and how He set up their country.
So do you believe Christainity endorses slavery and the subjugation of women?

I think history shows that slave in the Bible and slave in early America were in no way the same thing.
1) All forms of slavery are immoral. Are you suggesting that the slavery found in the Bible is moral?

2) You asserted that America was founded in Christian principles. Since America participated heavily in the global slave trade of African slaves, you must believe that this endeavor was in some way Christian. Correct?

I'm not saying no Christian would own a slave....I will say most often three word slave in the Bible is more akin to our word servant.
False. The Bible specifically instructs that a slave is somebody you own as property, can be beaten as punishment by you, and can even be inherited as property. It even specifies how you can keep Hebrew slaves for six years but then must let them free, but if they have a wife and children by the end of those six years you get to keep them indefinitely. It also instructs that fathers are allowed to sell their daughters into slavery, and that they have less, and more restrictive, rights to freedom than male slaves.

SOURCES:
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 25:44-46 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:20-21 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:1-4 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:7-11 - New International Version

Slavery is the owning of another human being as property, which is immoral.

Do you or do you not agree that treating or owning a human being as property is immoral?

This is a falsifiable claim. You don't have to believe it but it happens to be true.
Actually, it's not. You're wrong on this issue.

It's very easy to find historical documents demonstrating the influence of the Torah on the founding of this country.
So you believe the Torah promotes slavery, too?
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
We all agree that the world is becoming more secular. But in every meaningful way, life is getting better for humans in the global aggregate. Relieving human misery is supposed to be a core Christian principle, demonstrated by its founder. Yet it seems that Christians are convinced that the world is going to hell because it is secular.

I can demonstrate my point if you care to see the data. Pick an area of concern and let's see if perception and reality agree.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I maintain it's extremely important where the idea of good comes from. If good comes from God then it is universal and doesn't change. If it comes from man then there are no absolutes thereby"good" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no real way to to say whether anything at all is good or bad. Id also like to clarify that I know the colonists came here to flee religious persecution and absolutely forbade a mandatory religion for this country. But they absolutely did found most of the laws on the Bible, but more specifically the Torah. Even Jefferson and Adams wanted to emulate what God did through the Jews and how He set up their country. As far as the Scotsman fallacy....I have no interest in throwing memorized "answers" on this forum to win an argument. I actually hate arguing with people but the only way to know wether I'm right is to look at an issue from all possible angles and debate happens to be the best way to do that. I'm actually seeking the truth the best I know how. I think history shows that slave in the Bible and slave in early America were in no way the same thing. Also, the no true Scotsman fallacy is an unfalsifiable blanket statement. I'm not saying no Christian would own a slave....I will say most often three word slave in the Bible is more akin to our word servant. This is a falsifiable claim. You don't have to believe it but it happens to be true. It's very easy to find historical documents demonstrating the influence of the Torah on the founding of this country.

What you may be not recognizing is that the Torah itself was written by men who were influenced by the myth of neighboring cultures especially Egypt and Babylonia. Those Ten Commandments were inspired by pre-existing laws as they became the laws of the God of the Torah.

We have no way of independently verifying the origin of the Ten Commandments. If fact there is plenty of ambiguity and lack of evidence supporting even the existence of Moses. Moses' birth myths seems to mirror that of other mythic figures from other cultures and bears the familiar mark of originating from the stock of international oral story motifs.

In my study of Genesis there are rich literary foreshadowings of Moses' story throughout the story of the patriarchs whose own narratives reflect back upon each other giving the whole a deeper resonance. This too can be accounted for by the craft of human creativity.

All of this archeological, comparative mythological and literary analytical knowledge helps us to see the human origin of the Torah and its ideas immersed as they are in a multicultural source bed of inspiration.
 
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