Border Shutdown or Build a Wall?

[silvermoon383]

What use is a wall when over 40% of all people who are in the US “illegally” are those who came here with full authorization, but then stayed longer than the issued visa was valid for? (Illegal Immigration Statistics - FactCheck.org

Why are so many in the US so adamant about building walls and keeping people out instead of using our vast resources to help solve the issues that are driving people out of their homes in fear? Why are so many of the supposed Christians who are so adamant about building walls to keep people out when Christ said to be a shining beacon of light and hope to the world? Why are so many ignoring Christ’s words about helping those in need?

Why are people so quick to blame a scapegoat instead of looking at the issues logically and solving the roots and causes? Why are they so willing to repeat the history of the 1930s when a quick perusal of the history books show why that is a bad idea?

We don’t need a wall, we need more bridges. We don’t need a shutdown, we need understanding.

 

[wellwisher]

What use is a wall when over 40% of all people who are in the US “illegally” are those who came here with full authorization, but then stayed longer than the issued visa was valid for? (Illegal Immigration Statistics - FactCheck.org

Why are so many in the US so adamant about building walls and keeping people out instead of using our vast resources to help solve the issues that are driving people out of their homes in fear? Why are so many of the supposed Christians who are so adamant about building walls to keep people out when Christ said to be a shining beacon of light and hope to the world? Why are so many ignoring Christ’s words about helping those in need?

Why are people so quick to blame a scapegoat instead of looking at the issues logically and solving the roots and causes? Why are they so willing to repeat the history of the 1930s when a quick perusal of the history books show why that is a bad idea?

We don’t need a wall, we need more bridges. We don’t need a shutdown, we need understanding.

Trump wants to build a wall. He also said the wall would have many doors. The idea is to do this legally and not condone illegal behavior.

President Reagan gave amnesty to 2 million illegal aliens as part of a comprehensive immigration package in the 1980's. What happened next was the immigration policies were not enforced, resulting in current 20 million illegal aliens.

Trump wants to offer this latest batch of illegals a path toward citizenship, but he also knows if you do this first and have no wall in place, 50 million will try to get in. Without the wall, you can't help the illegals already here, without making the problem worse. A wall prevents lying politicians from ignoring the immigration laws, since a wall offers a formidable passive restraint.

One solution, that is never addressed, that could make a wall unnecessary, is if the Democrats, who want immigration, are willing to pay the extra taxes needed to cover the entire tab associated with illegal immigration. Democrats like high taxes ,so they should feel at home paying more taxes; Political Dutch Treat.

Illegal immigration costs about $116 Billion per year. The wall is about $20 billion. This is a one time cost and then about $1 billion annual maintenance. Trump is about being cost effective and keeping taxes low. But if the Democrats are willing to pay the $116 billion per year, then fine. If Republicans are not stuck with the tag for something they don't want they will be more cooperative.

Say there are about 12 million register Democrats, the extra tax burden will be about $10,000 per person per year. The poor registered Democrats can force the evil rich registered Democrats to pay their fair share so the extra tax burden can goes down to about $1000 per middle class Democrat. How many Democrats would put their money where the mouth is?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That option has already been ruled out.

... this week. Just like the idea that the US would have to pay for a border wall used to be ruled out.

Next week, who knows? I'd put even money on Trump - and you - backing down, but claiming that he never backed down because he was never insisting on a border wall.

 

[Watchmen]

False. I will repeat:

I don't get my information from from videos. If you know of any evidence that anything I said above is erroneous, then cite it and substantiate it.

The one question I asked in the above post is only answerable by @Salvador

The facts are in the video. It’s common on these boards to link to articles and videos with useful information. Your ongoing refusal to view the video is telling.

 

[Salvador]

What use is a wall when over 40% of all people who are in the US “illegally” are those who came here with full authorization, but then stayed longer than the issued visa was valid for? (Illegal Immigration Statistics - FactCheck.org

.

If an effective border security barrier were to prevent many of the nearly 50 percent of illegal aliens who've trespassed across the border into our nation from Mexico, then it'd be well-worth the cost to erect an effective border security barrier. Right?

 

[Shad]

politically-charged manipulative fantasies?



https://www.vox.com/2018/12/28/18158873/wall-shutdown-trump-dreamers-deal

Irony

 

[Salvador]

... this week. Just like the idea that the US would have to pay for a border wall used to be ruled out.

Next week, who knows? I'd put even money on Trump - and you - backing down, but claiming that he never backed down because he was never insisting on a border wall.

Trump isn't gonna back down. If there's no border security barrier funding...the partial government shutdown saga continues to keep the democratic house from their quest to open investigations against Trump....The democrats are desperate to put the government shutdown to an end, so they can pursue their political witch hunts against Trump; so then, the democratic house will cave to Trump's demand for an effective border security barrier, in order to open the government for investigations against Trump ....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trump isn't gonna back down.

We'll see. He backed down on getting Mexico to fund the wall and on getting North Korea to disarm. He seems to like backing down.

If there's no border security barrier funding...the partial government shutdown saga continues to keep the democratic house from their quest to open investigations against Trump....The democrats are desperate to put the government shutdown to an end, so they can pursue their political witch hunts against Trump; so then, the democratic house will cave to Trump's demand for an effective border security barrier, in order to open the government for investigations against Trump ....

The Democrats take the House regardless of what happens with the budget. Whether the shutdown ends is entirely with Trump and the Republican Senate.

 

[Salvador]

We'll see. He backed down on getting Mexico to fund the wall and on getting North Korea to disarm. He seems to like backing down.

The Democrats take the House regardless of what happens with the budget. Whether the shutdown ends is entirely with Trump and the Republican Senate.

There are at least some few American citizens on average killed each day by an illegal alien, according to latest study on criminality of illegal aliens. Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN

We need an effective border security barrier, according to the many families of American citizens who've lost a beloved family member who was killed by an illegal alien.

One third to nearly one half of illegal aliens trespass into the United States across the border from Mexico. Based on how Hungary's border security barrier has been way over 90 percent effective from stopping illegal immigration, an effective border security barrier on the U.S-Mexico border, would most likely decrease the number of violent homicidal migrants by at least one third from entering the United States ; consequently, this would result in approximately 700 fewer American citizens from getting slaughtered to death each year by illegal aliens.

Of course, the democrats can't rightfully neglect taking any means necessary as well as feasible, including an effective border security barrier, that'd prevent illegal aliens from killing around 700 American citizens each year.

Democratic leaders later this week will get a White House briefing about this need for an effective border security barrier, that ought to persuade them to go along with funding anything that's feasible and necessary for securing our nation's border, including an effective border security barrier.

 

[Watchmen]

What use is a wall when over 40% of all people who are in the US “illegally” are those who came here with full authorization, but then stayed longer than the issued visa was valid for? (Illegal Immigration Statistics - FactCheck.org

Why are so many in the US so adamant about building walls and keeping people out instead of using our vast resources to help solve the issues that are driving people out of their homes in fear? Why are so many of the supposed Christians who are so adamant about building walls to keep people out when Christ said to be a shining beacon of light and hope to the world? Why are so many ignoring Christ’s words about helping those in need?

Why are people so quick to blame a scapegoat instead of looking at the issues logically and solving the roots and causes? Why are they so willing to repeat the history of the 1930s when a quick perusal of the history books show why that is a bad idea?

We don’t need a wall, we need more bridges. We don’t need a shutdown, we need understanding.

What use is the wall? Check this out.

Build the Wall

 

[Nous]

The facts are in the video.

Then I implore you to cite all of the facts that show that anything I said in my post to @Salvador above, and substantiate that they are true facts. I predict you will be unable to show that anything I said in above post is false, but I am more than happy to learn of my errors and will gladly acknowledge them.

 

[Salvador]

your mistake is, I have to repeat this because you ignored it, you're comparing arrests for homicide with actual homicides, arrests for homicide are greater than the actual number of homicides, You're FBI statistics are homicides, not arrests, you'e immigrant statistics are arrests, not homicides.

According to a government report from GAO , there were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for homicide during a seven year period 2003-2009. https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf page 21

The conviction rate for homicide is 70 percent.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - FAQ Detail

This means that out of 25,064 persons arrested, there'd be somewhere around 17,545 persons legally found guilty. Between one half to two thirds of all illegal immigrants are here from Visa overstays, meaning they'd be undeterred from being here in America by a border wall. So then, out of 17,545 illegal aliens who've committed homicide over a period of seven years, approximately 5,848 of them entered the United States by crossing the border. A 90 percent effective border security barrier would've kept out 5,263 of these homicidal illegal aliens over a seven year period. 5,263 divided by 7 equals 751 homicidal illegal aliens each year that'd be kept away from our nation with a 90 percent effect border security barrier

 

[Nous]

According to a government report from GAO , there were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for homicide during a seven year period 2003-2009. https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf page 21

The conviction rate for homicide is 70 percent.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - FAQ Detail

This means that out of 25,064 persons arrested, there'd be somewhere around 17,545 persons legally found guilty.

No. The BJS conviction rate for homicide is for felony defendants, as the blurb clearly states, not for arrests. For approximately 20% of arrests for federal felonies, the cases are declined: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao/legacy/2013/10/28/12statrpt.pdf , at 13.

A 90 percent effective border security barrier would've kept out 5,263 of these homicidal illegal aliens over a seven year period.

You don't know of any border wall that permanently keeps out 90% of persons trying to illegally cross the border, do you?

 

[Watchmen]

What use is the wall? Check this out.

Build the Wall

By the way, the link I posted is to a video by a Pulitzer Prize winning author. For what it’s worth.

 

[Salvador]

No. The BJS conviction rate for homicide is for felony defendants, as the blurb clearly states, not for arrests. For approximately 20% of arrests for federal felonies, the cases are declined: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao/legacy/2013/10/28/12statrpt.pdf , at 13.


You don't know of any border wall that permanently keeps out 90% of persons trying to illegally cross the border, do you?

If twenty percent of arrest for homicide are declined, and the remaining arrests for homicide lead to a 70 percent conviction rate; that'd result in a conviction of 56 percent of those arrested for homicide. Right? So then, if there are 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for murder, and 56 percent of them are convicted, then that'd mean there'd be somewhere around 14,035 actual murders out of 25,064 persons initially charged for homicide. Right?

There were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for murder over a seven year time period, and approximately 14,035 of them are actually likely found to be guilty of homicide over a seven year period, that'd mean there'd be somewhere around 2,000 illegal aliens legally convicted of homicide each year. Right?

There are around 17,000 homicides in the U.S.on average each year, we've just figured there are probably somewhere around 2,000 illegal aliens convicted of homicide each year. So then, assuming there's one murderer per homicide, 2 out of 17 homicides are likely committed by illegal aliens; 2 out of 17 equals 11.76 percent of homicides being committed by illegal aliens. They are somewhere between 3 to 4 percent of the overall population. So then, illegal aliens are at most 4 percent of the population that's responsible for 11.76 percent of all homicides; then that'd mean illegal aliens who are at most 4 percent of the overall population committing 11.76 percent of all homicides, are somewhere nearly 3 times more likely to commit homicide than non-illegal aliens.

Right?

You and I can now agree illegal aliens, who are 3 to 4 percent of the population, are committing nearly 12 percent of our nation's homicides. Thus, they are around 3 times more likely to commit murder than legal immigrants or citizens.

Right?

 

[Nous]

If twenty percent of arrest for homicide are declined, and the remaining arrests for homicide lead to a 70 percent conviction rate; that'd result in a conviction of 56 percent of those arrested for homicide. Right? So then, if there are 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for murder, and 56 percent of them are convicted, then that'd mean there'd be somewhere around 14,035 actual murders out of 25,064 persons initially charged for homicide. Right?

There were 25,064 illegal aliens arrested for murder over a seven year time period, and approximately 14,035 of them are actually likely found to be guilty of homicide over a seven year period, that'd mean there'd be somewhere around 2,000 illegal aliens legally convicted of homicide each year. Right?

There are around 17,000 homicides in the U.S.on average each year, we've just figured there are probably somewhere around 2,000 illegal aliens convicted of homicide each year. So then, assuming there's one murderer per homicide, 2 out of 17 homicides are likely committed by illegal aliens; 2 out of 17 equals 11.76 percent of homicides being committed by illegal aliens. They are somewhere between 3 to 4 percent of the overall population. So then, illegal aliens are at most 4 percent of the population that's responsible for 11.76 percent of all homicides; then that'd mean illegal aliens who are at most 4 percent of the overall population committing 11.76 percent of all homicides, are somewhere nearly 3 times more likely to commit homicide than non-illegal aliens.

Right?

You and I can now agree illegal aliens, who are 3 to 4 percent of the population, are committing nearly 12 percent of our nation's homicides. Thus, they are around 3 times more likely to commit murder than legal immigrants or citizens.

Right?

As far as I know, everything you've said here seems to be correct (at least approximately correct). Offhand, I'm not sure about the percentages of the US population that legal and illegal immigrants constitute.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

To add another option to your second question: " . . . or could enter through one of the already existing or soon-to-be-built tunnels."

There's plenty of other options, I was being descriptive, not proscriptive.

A flurry of meaningful, well thought out responses to my question, though, which is nice to see.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If an effective border security barrier were to prevent many of the nearly 50 percent of illegal aliens who've trespassed across the border into our nation from Mexico, then it'd be well-worth the cost to erect an effective border security barrier. Right?

"If".

Kind of a key flaw in your argument, there.