Blinders

[Ceridwen018]

A couple weeks ago I was hanging out with my mom and my uncle, (her brother), as he told her about this new book he was reading. The book was called, "American Tragedy," (and my uncle recommends it, by the way), and its a factual story about a group of Mormons who massacred a large caravan of Pioneers who were passing through on their way to California.

I was going to take this time to explain the story further, but its not really necessary to the thread. However, if it gets enough requests, I would be happy to oblidge.

Anyhow, my uncle then went on to talk about how shocked he was about the behavior of the Mormons, (who, in the story, murdered the Pioneers because they were ordered to do so by Bringham Young, and also for scriptural reasons.) His approximate words were as follows:

"I mean, this is an important religion today! They have respected Universities and everything! It scares me, it really does--to think that such a corrupted religion could have such power in our country! I read an article once that said Mormonism was one of the fastest growing religions in our country! Do people know that the religion they're joining has such a despicable history as this? I mean, this is terrible!" And on, and on...

Coming to the point of this thread, my uncle, as well as the rest of my family, is very Catholic. Hearing him talk, I wanted to speak, but I kept my mouth shut. What I was thinking, however, was:

"What about Catholicism? What about the Crusades? Innocent III sent a bunch of kids because they were "pure" to go and fight the Muslims. All were killed or sold into slavery before they ever reached the Holy Land. The "Holy Warriors" of the other Crusades robbed, raped and killed needlessly as they sacked innocent citites that they passed through on their way home. Speaking of them, their payment for service as a Holy Warrior was an automatic ticket to heaven for them and their family!

"In medieval times the Catholic Church imprisoned or killed most everyone who disagreed with them. Even today Martin Luther is mentioned as having been "mentally ill" by my theology textbook, when he had only been trying to make the Church better! Still on the thread of modern times, I don't think I need to get into the countless priest scandals.

"Regardless of all of those shortcomings, Catholicism is still a hugely expansive religion today, and they have plenty of Universities too."

Contrary to what you might be thinking now, I am not here to rip on Catholicism. I am merely here to question how many people out there would be appalled at another religion's shortcomings, when their own isn't as nice as they might think.

Isn't it Jesus who said that we shouldn't point out the splinter in another's eye before we take care of the plank in our own?

 

[johnnys4life]

Oh dear, one misconception at a time please! There is a good thread on the crusades in the Catholic section, you may have to dig it up but that should answer a lot of your questions.

From what I read about Martin Luther, he may have been trying to do some good in the church, but he WAS mentally ill. I don't know about you...but if someone told me the devil came through thier window at night and pulled down his pants and farted on them, and they WEREN'T Spinks, I might question thier sanity. Well I picked up a book, A PROTESTANT book that was meant to say how great he was, and just in passing they mentioned he had said this or something very similar to it.

 

[johnnys4life]

But let's get down to the core here. People sin, even people high up in a religion. Only if you're religion holds that someone in a certain position of power CAN NOT sin, can it be proven false if that person does sin. Like for example if Jesus sinned, that would disprove my religion. If Brigham Young or the Popes who sinned were supposed to be sinless, that would be a good case, however I don't think that's what the Mormons or Catholics believe, they believe the Pope has an ability to act infallibly but only when making ex-cathedra statements.

Now, I think your uncle may have it a bit wrong, but I'm not sure. It's been ages since I was Mormon and I can't even quite remember who Brigham Young is exactly.

 

[Katzpur]

A couple weeks ago I was hanging out with my mom and my uncle, (her brother), as he told her about this new book he was reading. The book was called, "American Tragedy," (and my uncle recommends it, by the way), and its a factual story about a group of Mormons who massacred a large caravan of Pioneers who were passing through on their way to California.

I was going to take this time to explain the story further, but its not really necessary to the thread. However, if it gets enough requests, I would be happy to oblidge.

Ceridwen,

You don't know how close I came to not even looking at this thread. I'm so glad I did. I am not familiar with the book you are recommending, but I do have a few things to say about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which I believe are very necessary to this thread. It is imporant to me that people understand how hurtful books like this really are.

Anyhow, my uncle then went on to talk about how shocked he was about the behavior of the Mormons, (who, in the story, murdered the Pioneers because they were ordered to do so by Bringham Young, and also for scriptural reasons.) His approximate words were as follows:

"I mean, this is an important religion today! They have respected Universities and everything! It scares me, it really does--to think that such a corrupted religion could have such power in our country! I read an article once that said Mormonism was one of the fastest growing religions in our country! Do people know that the religion they're joining has such a despicable history as this? I mean, this is terrible!" And on, and on...

Here is the story of the tragic events which transpired in the summer of 1857: The Mormon pioneers, having been forceably driven from their homes in Illinois in mid-February of 1846, had in 1847, finally arrived in the Salt Lake Valley, where they had come to worship God without the persecution they had endured since the Church was founded in 1830. They were, at this time, working at colonizing the West. In 1857, Utah was not a state but a territory. As the events unfolded, a large contingent of US troops was marching towards the Utah Territory. Despite having been the federally appointed territorial governor, Brigham Young was not informed by Washington of the army's purpose, and interpreted the move as another surge of persecution of the Latter-day Saints. Anticipating an imminent attack, he declared the territory to be under martial law and ordered the Saints to stand ready to defend themselves.

Part of Brigham's strategy was to enlist the local Indian tribes as allies. He had not long before made a statement urging the settlers to try to gain the confidence and trust of the Indians, saying, "they must learn that they have either got to help us or the United States will kill us both."

Meanwhile, a group of ono-LDS emigrants were headed for California. Due to the lateness of the season, they had decided to take a southern route, which would take them through the town of Cedar City and thirty-five miles beyond it to Mountain Meadows. This area was fairly well-known as a good place for travelers to stop and rejuvenate themselves before starting off into the vast desert that lay between the Utah Territory and the Pacific Coast. This particular party was made up of a diverse group of about 120 people, most of whom were from Arkansas.

As the emigrants made their way from Salt Lake City towards Cedar City, tensions arose between them and both the Mormons and the Indians. Spurred by rumors, their own observations and memories of the horrible attrocities which had been perpetrated against them in the past, Mormon residents in and around Cedar City were anxious to take action against the travelers -- even though the travelers themselves were innocent of any wrong-doing against the Mormons. Ultimately, however, they decided to hold off until they were able to contact Brigham Young and ask for his blessing in doing so. They dispatched a messenger on September 7 to make the hearly 300-mile (one-way) trip to Salt Lake. He made the trip in just over three days.

Within about an hour after meeting with Brigham Young, the messenger was back on his way to Cedar City with a letter from Brigham Young with the following statement:

"In regard to the emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please, but you should try and preserve good feelings with them."

The messenger arrived back in Cedar City on September 13. By that time, nearly all of the men, women and children who had been on their way to California had been slaughtered by the Mormons and the Indians. (About eighteen children were spared.) It was a tragic, senseless act of violence commited by a group of people who undoubtedly knew better but who had, for whatever reasons, let their desire for revenge override their common sense and religious training. As more information became available, several of the principle participants were formally excommunicated from the Church.

In September of 1990, two thousand individuals gathered in Cedar City to effect a reconciliation among those whose ancestors either died or participated in the most unfortunate event in the history of the LDS Church. A memorial marker was dedicated to those who lost their lives in the events of that horrendous massacre. President Gordon B. Hinckley, who was at that time, First Counselor in the Presidency of the Church offered the dedicatory prayer. He said, "In our time, we can read such history as is available, but we really cannot understand nor coprehend that which occurred those tragic and terrible September days in 1857. Rather, we are grateful for the ameliorating influence that has brought us together in a spirit of reconciliation as new generations garhter with respect and appreciation for one another. A bridge has been built across a chasm of cankering bitterness. We walk across that bridge and greet one another with a spirit of love, forgiveness, and with hope that there will never be a repetition of anything of the kind."

You know, I realize that your uncle may be entirely sincere in believing the story as the author of this book presented it. However, the "facts" were skewed in an obviously negative bias against the Latter-day Saints. This kind of re-telling "history" is, in my opinion, intolerable. I hope you will relay the other side of the story to your uncle.

Kathryn

 

[johnnys4life]

Ceridwen, if you're point was that religious people shouldn't be hypocritical by judging other religions for having hypocrits in thier pasts, I agree with you!

Whatever religion - or non-religion you go with, you are going to find that there are many hypocrits. The only way not to be a hypocrit is to have incredibly rock-bottom standards, and even then most people I know who fit that category will sometimes break thier own rules.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The only way not to be a hypocrit is to have incredibly rock-bottom standards

Which, evidently *points to self* she does.

 

[johnnys4life]

Which, evidently *points to self* she does.

Hmm....I don't really think so. Unless there are bodies in your basement. Are there bodies in your basement, that you know of?

 

[Mister Emu]

*wakes up in a basement with a large bump on head*

Ah! Whats going on!

 

[johnnys4life]

Run, Ceridwen run!!!

 

[Ceridwen018]

Lol--you guys are all silly. By the way, thanks a lot for the info, Katzpur!!

My point definitely was that people of one religion shouldn't judge those of another, because no one is perfect. Yeah, the massacre was a terrible tragedy, and Mormonism is clouded by shady polygamist colonies, but that doesn't mean that there aren't honest and good people who practice the religion with true conviction, and who don't go around murdering Pioneers and beating each of their seven wives! Seriously though. Even Catholicism has its good points. Just because they burned people at the stake for disagreeing with them, and just because at one point they considered women to be evil doesn't mean that there aren't good Catholics out there!

 

[johnnys4life]

But....women ARE evil. Mwahahaha

 

[Ceridwen018]

*Gasp!*

J4L! Ssshhhhh!!! What do you think you're doing, disclosing our secrets like that!?