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Featured Biblical Mary!

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by actsfourthirty, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. actsfourthirty

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    Biblical Mary:

    Mother of God Lk 1:43

    Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary
    Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

    Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30

    Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
    Lk 1:31-34

    Behold thy mother!

    John 19:26-27
    When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    Jesus is not asking John to care for His Mary, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

    Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!

    What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

    As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

    Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

    Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
    A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

    The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

    Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.




    Blessed Mary ever Virgin mother of God!

    Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

    Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    John sanctified in the womb!

    Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

    Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

    Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

    Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

    The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

    11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!


    From Genesis to revelation!

    First promise of salvation!

    Gen 3:15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Total war: enmity

    None of satans works are found in Mary, she belongs entirely to God!
    Even consecration herself to God at a very young age.

    Isa 7:14

    1 kings 2: 17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.

    18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.

    19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

    20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

    2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

    Heb 2:7

    Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

    Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun.



    Mary is the great sign of the divinity of Christ!

    Isa 7:14
    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Matt 1:23
    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Lk 1:35
    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Lk 2:35
    a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

    Matt 27:54
    Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Jn 2:3
    And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

    Jn 2:11
    This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    Rev 12:1
    And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    Rev 12:5
    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


    A good tree!

    Matthew 7:18
    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
    Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

    Mother of Divine Grace!

    Hebrews 4:16
    Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    The throne of Grace is the throne of Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

    We come boldly to this throne cause Mary is our mother and advocate!

    Mary is the storehouse of divine graces!

    Lk 1:28
    And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.


    Salvation is to be found with Mary!
    Jesus Christ is our salvation! Lk 2:30
    He is Lord, and He is with Mary! Lk 1:28
    Mary found our salvation! Lk 1:30
    Consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38


    Queen of heaven
    In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen
    Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
    And king of heaven so Mary is queen of heaven

    A Royal greeting!

    Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
    Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

    God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

    This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

    In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

    Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
    29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
    30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

    Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
    Mother of divine grace


    Mary is our spiritual mother


    Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

    Genesis 3:20
    And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    John 19:26-27
    When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

    Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
    What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

    As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

    Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

    Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
    A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

    The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

    Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

    Ark of the new covenant!
    The dwelling place of God!
    God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
    read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
    In the ark was the word of God!
    In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
    In the ark was the mana!
    In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
    Bethlehem means house to of bread!

    Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Holy mother of God!

    Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
     
  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    The verses mentioned certainly show that Mary was a virgin before Jesus was born. No verse says that she remained that way for her whole life. Mathew 12:46 clearly says Jesus had brothers who would have been born the regular way, without God's help. Mary was a great woman and the mother of our savior but nothing in the Bible says she did not go on to enjoy a full and normal life as a married woman.
     
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  3. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:35 says Jesus would be the Son of God. So Mary was the mother of the Son of God. That is a big difference than being the mother of God.
     
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  4. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

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    you write an incredibly large amount of words in your OPs

    it’s possible that the large volume of information makes it difficult to respond, since there are so many many verses and comments to unpack and discuss

    just to get a few tiny thoughts in, I might attempt to respond to a few verses:

    luke 1:43.... Elizabeth does NOT call the child within Mary the mother of God

    John 19:27... Jesus does NOT refer to Mary as his mother

    Revelation 12:17... the woman is NOT Mary. One must try to use reason and understanding to determine what the dragon symbolizes as well as what the woman symbolizes

    imo
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @actsfourthirty.....
    The Bible does not teach that Mary is the mother of God, nor does it suggest that Christians should either worship or venerate Mary.
    • Mary never claimed that she was the mother of God. The Bible explains that she gave birth to “the Son of God,” not God himself.—Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32.

    • Jesus Christ never said that Mary was God’s mother or that she was worthy of special devotion. In fact, he corrected a woman who gave special attention to Mary’s happy role as his mother, saying: “No, rather, happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it!”—Luke 11:27, 28.

    • The terms “Mother of God” and “Theotokos” (God-bearer) are not found in the Bible.

    • The expression “Queen of Heaven” in the Bible refers, not to Mary, but to a false goddess worshipped by apostate Israelites. (Jeremiah 44:15-19) The “Queen of Heaven” may have been Ishtar (Astarte), a Babylonian goddess.

    • Early Christians did not worship Mary, nor did they give her any special honor. One historian states that early Christians “would have rejected cults and probably feared that undue attention to Mary might evoke a suspicion of goddess worship.”—In Quest of the Jewish Mary.

    • The Bible says that God has always existed. (Psalm 90:1, 2; Isaiah 40:28) Since he had no beginning, he cannot have a mother. Furthermore, Mary could not have held God in her womb; the Bible makes clear that even the heavens cannot contain him.—1 Kings 8:27.
    The earliest evidence of devotion to Mary dates from the late fourth century C.E. At that time, the Catholic Church became the State religion of the Roman Empire. As a result, many who had a pagan background became nominal Christians. The church had also adopted the unscriptural teaching of the Trinity.

    The doctrine of the Trinity led many in the church to conclude that if Jesus were God, then Mary must be the mother of God. In 431 C.E., a church council in Ephesus officially proclaimed Mary the “Mother of God.” Mariolatry—the excessive veneration of Mary—flourished after this Council of Ephesus. And as those from a pagan background joined the church, images and icons of the Virgin Mary gradually took the place of their fertility goddesses, such as Artemis (Diana, to the Romans) and Isis.

    In 432 C.E., Pope Sixtus III ordered a church to be built in Rome in honor of the “Mother of God.” It was built near the site of an earlier temple erected in honor of Lucina, the Roman goddess of childbirth. One author described this church as “an enduring symbol of the assimilation of the Great Mother of the pagan cults to the cult of Mary after the Christianization of Rome.”—Mary—The Complete Resource.

    So the question must be asked....was Roman Catholicism the 'Christianization of Roman paganism' or was it the 'Roman paganization of Christianity'?
     
  6. actsfourthirty

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    thanks for sharing
    I believe it does

    brothers does not imply the same mother
    The 12 sons of Jacob has 4 mothers

    Matt 1:21-23 one child singular

    Lk 1:38 I do not have sex with a man

    thanks
     
  7. actsfourthirty

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    thanks

    lk 1:43 says mother of God
    And as Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of his person she is the mother of God
    Not of the divinity not the source of God but mother of Jesus who is God
    That’s my faith anyway
     
  8. actsfourthirty

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    sorry I should keep it simple I suppose

    Jn 19:27 Jesus call her woman here and in Jn 2 to remind us of gen 3:15

    rev 12 not Mary? Ok

    who is it?
    Who is the child?

    thanks
     
  9. actsfourthirty

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    your free to share you’re faith and this is mine
    I never said worship Mary
    Thanks
     
  10. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I would never question your faith or your right to believe what you want. I would only point out that in Luke 1:34 Mary tells the angel that she has not had sex. But that means she has not had sex up to that time. Not that she will never have sex. I can tell someone that I have never eaten sushi and then go out the next day and eat sushi. I was not saying that I would never eat sushi but that I had never eaten it up to that time. Faith is a good thing but sometimes one must look at the details and not just believe what someone tells us.
     
  11. actsfourthirty

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    Thanks for sharing

    It is in the present tense perpetual is implied
    If I do not know man when I am betrothed to a man then it refers to a perpetual state of being
    Remember they sacrifice a normal married life to obey God and bring the savior into the world

    also

    Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Only christ is born of Mary according to scripture:

    Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary according to scripture:

    Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

    Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

    Biblical principles:

    Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

    A son singular not a family:

    Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Only the God-man is born of a Virgin-mother
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You don't have to.....a picture is worth a thousand words.....
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    What ever happened to Exodus 20:4-5...?
    "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them". (RSVCE)

    This undue devotion to Mary is a blatant breach of the second Commandment....

    You titled your thread "Biblical Mary" but I believe that your Bible quotations are twisted like your Catholic doctrine....you force her into your quoted verses, but they do not fit with what the rest of the Bible teaches.

    There is very little in the scriptures at all about Mary, other than that she was the chosen mother of Jesus Christ. Since her son and his apostles barely mention her, and that there is not a single passage of scripture that identifies Jesus as equal with his God and Father, Mary never was "the Mother of God".....that, according to the Bible, is a blasphemous doctrine. Mary is virtually equal, if not more important than Jesus in Catholic theology. There is nothing "biblical" about that.

    You're welcome.
     
    #12 Deeje, Jun 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  13. actsfourthirty

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    thanks for sharing

    first it is a big subject so let’s take one thing at a time
    I’ll be happy to answer all your concerns

    worship is due to God alone!
    Adoration
    Reparation
    Offering of sacrifice

    Veneration is not worship
    Your parents are owed veneration or honor
    As scripture says honor thy father and mother
    Also give honor where honor is due
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you....I believe that an in depth investigation is necessary for something this serious.
    Blasphemy did, after all, carry the death penalty. We would not want to, even unwittingly, be found guilty of that.

    OK, lets take the words for "worship" in the Bible and examine them in their original form. English can be a bit misleading.

    In Hebrew it is "hish·ta·chawahʹ" and in Greek it is "pro·sky·neʹo."....the act of bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission; or simply the paying of respect. It adequately translates that idea in the scriptures.

    "Proskyneō", according to Strongs Concordance, means....

    "From πρός (G4314) and a probable derivative of κύων (G2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)."
    It goes on to say...

    1. "to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
    2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
    3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
      1. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
        1. to the Jewish high priests
        2. to God
        3. to Christ
        4. to heavenly beings
        5. to demons

    ......to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship."

    So what do we have here? And how does "worship" differ from "obeisance", which is the same word?

    Lets take the magi who came seeking the king of the Jews when Jesus was born, for an example.
    Matthew 2:11...
    " and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."

    Did the magi "worship" Jesus as a God....or did they do "obeisance" to honor him as the future king of the Jews? Its the same word. The magi were Babylonian astrologers, so it was apparently their custom as a gesture of good will to honor a new member of a royal family. This was not a gesture prompted by God however, because these worshippers of foreign gods were used by the devil in an attempt to have Jesus killed. God had the birth of Jesus made by angels to shepherds who were out guarding their flocks at night.

    The magi did not get directed by the "star" to the "house" (not the stable) where Jesus was living until after it had guided them to Jerusalem and to a jealous and wicked king who, upon hearing that a new "king of the Jews" had been born was furious and wanted to do away with him. It was a threat to his own dynasty.

    God warned the magi in a dream to go home via another way, so when Herod discovered that they had not followed his instructions, he had all the male infants two years of age and under put to death. But Jesus was now safely out of harm's way after Joseph was also warned to take the child to Egypt. Read Matthew ch 2.

    OK, now that we have established the difference between worship that is given to God and honor that is given to a human being...including Jesus, what is given to Mary that belongs only to Jesus?

    In instances where the Israelites bowed down and prostrated themselves to God, it was always in humble submission to his will, or as an act of gratitude, or in displaying reverence. Can that be given to humans? Yes, as long as it is recognized that "obeisance" given to any human is not "worship" and that context dictates which meaning should be understood.

    So, what is accorded to Jesus, Mary and the Saints in Catholic worship?

    The belief that Jesus is God incarnate is a misinterpretation of John 1:1, amongst others. There is not a single statement from God or Jesus that he is anything other than the divine son of God. He is divine in his origins as he was "the only begotten son of God" long before he came to the earth to be born as a human. He existed "with" God as the "Logos" or spokesman for God and was active in that role from the time when creation began. His title "only begotten" is "monogenes", which in Greek is the word used for an only child. Since the Bible makes reference to many "sons of God" including Adam, how is Jesus unique in his sonship?

    Colossians 1:15-17 answers that question....
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

    He is the "firstborn" in being the first and only direct creation of God.....who created all things "through" and "for" his firstborn son. This son is an "image" or reflection of his Father, but he is not God. There is only one Creator and the son was used to fashion all the raw materials that his Father brought into existence. God was the architect, but the pre-human Jesus was the construction engineer.

    His role with regard to mankind is also unique....he is the only appointed Mediator between God and men.
    1 Timothy 2:5...
    "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".
    That leaves no room for any other person to intercede for sinful mankind....not Mary and not the saints.

    No one is to pray to Jesus, or any other personage, because only God is "the hearer of prayer"....all our prayers are to be addressed to the Father, in the name of the son, showing that we acknowledge his unique role as Mediator.

    Well, that will do for starters....over to you....
     
    #14 Deeje, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It is simply dishonest to posit "veneration" to be exactly the same as "worship", thus we see the same lie being repeated ad nauseum.
     
  16. actsfourthirty

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    thank I’m impressed with you’re knowledgeable

    you’re right obeisance and reverence are not worship example:
    1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

    All reverence and honor we give to Mary and the saints ends I Jesus for they are saints thru His merits all the glory is ultimately directed to the holy savior.

    one mediator
    Yes Jesus is the only mediator of justice
    But he share this with his apostles

    2 Corinthians 5:19
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconcilingthe world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
    Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

    Even to the point of sharing his being just judge Matt 19:28

    as to prayer anyone in the communion of saints can pray and intercede for one another and especially the saints who were men and women of God with virtuous lives live for God and especially Mary His mother who found favor even with God Lk 1:30
    And Jesus honors Her in particular cos of His obedience to the commandment honor thy father and mother and in Jn 2 the disciples believed cod of her intercession
    James 5:16 prayer rev 5:8 prayers of the saints
    All to the glory of God in Jesus Christ our holy savior
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

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    No human, including Jesus was to be worshipped. Any honor or reverence, given to such was “obeisance”.

    Whilst Mary was alive, she received no special mention, except that she was to be favoured as God’s choice to bring his son into the world. This included Joseph who was betrothed to Mary, but who had not yet taken her as a wife. Hence her virgin status, which was a necessary component in identifying the Messiah....he was to be born of a virgin.

    Betrothal in Bible times was seen as a binding arrangement, and like a marriage, it could only be dissolved by a divorce. Joseph showed by his reaction to her pregnancy that he was an honorable man, but once God had informed him of the situation, he fully complied.

    God’s choice of these two had to meet certain criteria. Joseph was also a vital part of it, since he would be the one to accept this child as his own, and raise him as a devout Jew, which responsibility to a large extent depended on the family head.

    It’s all well and good to honor Mary for her role, but not to exaggerate it out of all proportion. Especially is this true when we realize that mother goddess worship was already strong in the world, and the Catholic Church adopted so many aspects of that pagan worship and applied it to Mary. This is not biblical, but just another pagan belief woven into scripture by the Catholic Church so long ago, that most people have grown up believing that it’s true.....when it never was.

    Jesus is the only Mediator provided by God to serve as a ‘bridge’ between sinful humans and their God. Mankind were separated from their Creator by sin; Jesus provides communication and instruction to all of his disciples so as to bring about reconciliation with God.
    (As a side note, if Jesus was God, we would also have needed a mediator between us and him, if sin separates us from God. Something to think about.)

    Jesus’ death provided the redemption price in order for reconciliation to take place, but the only role that the apostles played was to continue what Jesus started. They were not to replace him, but to make sure that his instructions and teachings remained untainted until the last contribution to the Cristian scriptures was complete. They were not at liberty to add anything to what their Master taught.
    An apostasy was foretold, and it happened......but no one seemed to notice. Hindsight is 20/20.

    According to scripture, Peter was not given authority over the other apostles, because all 12 form the foundations of God’s kingdom. (Revelation 21:14) Peter has no special status but was given certain responsibilities. He was not the “rock” upon which the church was built.....Jesus was the “rock”. We can discuss this in more detail if you wish.
    There was no Pope in original Christianity because all the apostles all had the same responsibilities to spread Jesus’ teachings. The office of “Pontifex Maximus” given to the Pope, (thePontiff) was a pagan Roman title.

    Mary found favor with God for reasons other that what the church teaches.
    The only instances of intercession found in the Bible was whilst these saints were still alive on earth.

    James 5:16....
    “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. (NRSVCE)

    Since the saints were to sleep in death until Christ’s return, there were no saints in heaven to intercede for anyone until the establishment of God’s kingdom.
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17....
    “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.” (NRSVCE)

    Read Paul’s words there and contemplate what he said. Those “dead in Christ”, would not be raised until the “coming of the Lord” and none of those chosen for a role in heaven would be raised until then. The “first resurrection” is for those who are chosen by God for the role of “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

    Only the living on earth could pray for their brethren. The dead were all “sleeping” in death until Christ’s return.
    1 Thessalonians 4:13
    “Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers , about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as others do who have no hope.” (MOUNCE INTERLINEAR)
    Death was likened to a sleep because the Jews had no belief in life after death. They were taught resurrection, which is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it. (John 11:11-14)

    The ancient Jewish understanding of death and resurrection is an interesting subject if you wish to talk about that as well.

    As above, James 5:16 is about prayers of the righteous having power...but only whilst they were alive on earth. You cannot pray to dead saints.
    Revelation 5:8 is describing the prayers of the “holy ones” who are still alive on earth before their being “transformed” into spirit beings to take up their position in heaven. This does not take place until Christ’s return.

    That too is an important and interesting subject......

    Over to you.....
     
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  18. Alex22

    Alex22 Member

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    In ancient Greece women would say that one of the gods got them pregnant. I suspect this whole Mary story is just a rip off of that.
     
  19. actsfourthirty

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    thanks
    Our religion is revealed by God who can neither deceive or be deceived
     
  20. actsfourthirty

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    thanks

    one thing at a time
    Only God may be worshiped yes

    Is reverence and honor worship?
     
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