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Biblical Christianity?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I give up. It's not personal, but it's not worth my trying to spell it out more clearly than I have without just repeating myself. Who you seem to think I am, I'm not that.

You gotta read my posts.

I don't share your sentiments. I do share some of your logic. Gotta read it first.

1. I did. I have to separate your posts like this so I can read it. It's not personal.

2. Some are, though. I don't know the point you're making when you're separating those who don't believe how you do to those who do.

3. I can see that.
I know your position; but, what is your point after coming to that conclusion?


4. I don't know. That's a good question.
I'd say, from their view, that saying the bible is the word of god is using inspired words to help dictate god's how they are to interact with people and god's creation.

5. So I get what you're saying...
in what you disagree with. It's very hard to find your points. After you found out some christians put their faith in idolism, is that it?

6. Is there a way to get you to understand their point of view or is that it?

I don't agree with you. I'd like to talk about it if your posts are less defensive (don't take it personally) and more open.

I know you're against bible-christians...I'm sure that's not it??

I used the numerals so you can read my points and see where we agree. I try to separate the points since I write long posts.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But why not just say that as devout followers, versus culturally religious? You have that same thing in all religions. There are always those who just identify with their culture's religion, and there are those who are devotees. There is no need to call that "Biblical" to try to set them apart somehow.

But personally I'll add this here. What I have seen of "Biblical Christians", is not what I would call truly devout at all. It's not about a true, sincere, humble devotion to God. It's about claiming to have the truth, setting themselves apart from those who are in error, or "not Biblical". It's a presumption of hubris, and anything but humble and devout.

If I were you personally, I'd drop that term, if you think that means "devout".


And what does that matter? The notion the average Christian actually had access to scriptures to search for themselves, is completely false. That was not a reality until the last few hundred years after the invention of the printing press. Prior to that, it was told to them.

Secondly, and fatally to support the notion to search the scriptures, most people were illiterate. Only the privileged few could even read until modern times, since the introduction of public education systems.

So these people knew and followed God, completely without the Bible. They had neither access to one, nor could read it if they had. So then the question is to you, is the Bible really as important as you've been told? This is a very different world, and calling what you see today in the practice of Christianity as "Biblical", is a complete and total projection of themselves into history, a creation myth about themselves, in other words. There is no similarity, other that this - the human heart.

And that is what Christianity is about.
I see the Bible a testimony and revelation of Jesus Christ. The old testament records God's interaction with the Jewish nation and prophetic promises to Israel through which the Messiah would come to the world. The new testament records the arrival, life, and finished work of Christ as the Savior of humanity. That is biblical Christianity.

Those who use the scriptures for purposes other than pointing to Jesus or to set themselves apart from others in a prideful way are doing so in contradiction to the bibilcal scriptures and life and example of Jesus Christ.

I said many are biblically illiterate in reference to today when the scriptures are readily available. I agree that in the past many did not have access, could not read, or the scriptures were not complied, printed, and available. Yet, God has always responded to those who seek Him and revealed Himself in Christ in accordance with the scriptures.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see the Bible a testimony and revelation of Jesus Christ. The old testament records God's interaction with the Jewish nation and prophetic promises to Israel through which the Messiah would come to the world. The new testament records the arrival, life, and finished work of Christ as the Savior of humanity. That is biblical Christianity.
That is also what the Roman Catholic Church believes. Do you consider them Biblical Christians? Whenever I've heard that term used, it is to distinguish them and their beliefs and doctrines from other branches of Christian belief and practice, directly suggesting those other Christians are operating outside the teachings of the Bible, presuming themselves to be right and the other Christians wrong. Is that not an accurate statement?

Those who use the scriptures for purposes other than pointing to Jesus or to set themselves apart from others in a prideful way are doing so in contradiction to the bibilcal scriptures and life and example of Jesus Christ.
Which ironically, includes those who use the term Biblical Christian to set themselves pridefully apart from others, in contradiction to the example of Jesus.If Biblical Christianity means believing in what scripture teaches, then all Christians are Biblical Christians and the term is meaningless.

I said many are biblically illiterate in reference to today when the scriptures are readily available. I agree that in the past many did not have access, could not read, or the scriptures were not complied, printed, and available. Yet, God has always responded to those who seek Him and revealed Himself in Christ in accordance with the scriptures.
Even if they have never even heard of the Bible, or the Gospels, I'll add. Would you agree with that?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
That is also what the Roman Catholic Church believes. Do you consider them Biblical Christians? Whenever I've heard that term used, it is to distinguish them and their beliefs and doctrines from other branches of Christian belief and practice, directly suggesting those other Christians are operating outside the teachings of the Bible, presuming themselves to be right and the other Christians wrong. Is that not an accurate statement?
The good news about Jesus is not all that the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches. I was raised in the Catholic Church and there is a lot more required by the Church for salvation and eternal life than simply trusting Jesus Christ. I was never taught Christ is sufficient. I did not read the scriptures while a Catholic so I never knew what they really said on the subject. I know for a fact that I was not a biblical Christian while a Catholic. I can't speak for all.


Which ironically, includes those who use the term Biblical Christian to set themselves pridefully apart from others, in contradiction to the example of Jesus.If Biblical Christianity means believing in what scripture teaches, then all Christians are Biblical Christians and the term is meaningless.

It is prideful when some set themselves apart with a arrogant, self-exalting attitude, but it is not prideful if one simply uses the term to distinguish between true or false teachings to prevent deception of themselves and others. It is not meaningless when you consider that many people or groups add extra requirements to the scriptures, disregard, or twist the teachings of the Bible for their own agendas, gain, or control.


Even if they have never even heard of the Bible, or the Gospels, I'll add. Would you agree with that?

Yes, even if one has never heard of the Bible, I believe God will lead a sincere seeker to Himself and ultimately that person's beliefs will line up with the scriptures because they are God's words about Himself, humanity, and temporal and eternal reality. This is happening right now in Islamic countries.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The good news about Jesus is not all that the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches.
Could you clarify the above?

I was raised in the Catholic Church and there is a lot more required by the Church for salvation and eternal life than simply trusting Jesus Christ.
False. [see below]

I was never taught Christ is sufficient.
Then you weren't listening and/or reading Catholic materials.

I did not read the scriptures while a Catholic so I never knew what they really said on the subject.
That's on you as don't you have a Bible? Right now I'm in a 20 week study of Matthew's gospel at my local Catholic Church, and I was involved in another multi-week study of the gospels last year.

I know for a fact that I was not a biblical Christian while a Catholic.
Catholics are "biblical Christians".

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that you've found a church that you feel comfortable in, but please be careful not to misportray what Catholicism does actually teach.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you read a book without interpreting it? No. Anyone who has ever written a response essay knows this. So everyone who reads the Bible is, unless they have an outside authority, going to interpret it differently. For us Jews, we have halakhah holding us together, although admittedly we there is more than one halakhah to go around. For Catholics, they have the Pope and the Magisterium.

But Protestants, who are the ones who claim Bible only, each end up being their own Pope. In a million ways, Protestants depend on Tradition without even realizing it. For example, why do they worship on Sunday? It's not in the New Testament. Where do they get the canon of the New Testament? Not one of the authors gave a Table of contents -- they inherited the TOC from the Catholics, who got it via the authority of the Church. They got their TOC for the Tanakh from us Jews (why they would consider another religion to be authoritative for them is beyond me).
Sort of. Catholics have Christ, not the Pope. The position of Pope is historically very problematic for them. I think they are stuck with it rather than needing it. The pope couldn't hold anything together as evidenced by the Reformation, which (I consider) was an angry, toxic mess. Also Christians have Christ, not the Bible, to keep us together. The Bible has been, similarly, problematic -- a real hot potato.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sort of. Catholics have Christ, not the Pope. The position of Pope is historically very problematic for them. I think they are stuck with it rather than needing it. The pope couldn't hold anything together as evidenced by the Reformation, which (I consider) was an angry, toxic mess. Also Christians have Christ, not the Bible, to keep us together. The Bible has been, similarly, problematic -- a real hot potato.
The structure was that of the early Church with Jesus as a "pope" of sorts and the apostles as "bishops". IOW, as Jesus and the apostles were said to have done in the gospels, they "taught with authority".

However, even back during Jesus' time, authority often was questioned and sometimes rejected by many, such as we saw with the divisions within Judaism.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Is there really any such thing, or is this a mythology? I believe it is a created myth in order to bolster an image of authority to a particular set of beliefs and values, typically conservative/fundamentalist in nature. It is a moniker created as a political slogan in order to create a sense of validity and authority to their specific views."It's not my words, but God's!", which is of course a false position for any human to say. Everything read from the Bible, is subjective to personal or group interpretations. Recognizing that fact, begins to open oneself to self-awareness and our particular biases which divide rather than unite.

In reality, there never was such as thing as "Biblical Christianity", especially in the early church. There was no Bible for the early Christians. There was no "official collection" of books that they all agreed upon, and held up as a source of authority for the first couple hundred years. Yet, they were Christians, who did not have a "Bible", let alone "follow" it.

What were they really following then, if it wasn't the Bible? What is Christianity about then, if it's not about "following the Bible"? What is it supposed to be following then, if they Bible is handled in such ways that people hide their prejudices behind what they are reading? Is Christianity founded in the Bible, or something else? What is the reality of Christianity, since "Biblical Christianity" is a created myth?

With the contradictions in it, people have to choose which verses they align with. Many conservative Christians don't realize what all is in the Bible. Everyone has to pick and choose, but they seem to think they believe the whole Bible. Wrong!
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The good news about Jesus is not all that the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches.
That is also equally as true of those who self-identify as Biblical Christians. There is a whole litany of extra-Biblical beliefs and practices they engage in as well, yet somehow overlook in their criticism of the other things Catholics add as part of their traditions. They themselves add stuff too, such as getting politically involved to keep prayer in school, teachings of creationism alongside real science, so-called "sanctity of marriage" agendas, adding music or not to services, having their hair cut or not, women wearing slacks or skirts, worshipping on Saturday or Sunday, full immersion baptism or sprinkling, tongues talking or not, and a whole litany of beliefs they all claim are supported by scripture.

The Catholics claim to be able to support their practices with scripture as well. They are all doing the exact same thing they accuse the other of doing in error. It is simply the pot calling the kettle black, in other words.

I was raised in the Catholic Church and there is a lot more required by the Church for salvation and eternal life than simply trusting Jesus Christ.
As far as I know salvation for Catholics is based on how they read the Bible, just as salvation for Protestants is based on how they read the Bible. Both are "Biblical" according to each respective school of thought.

I was never taught Christ is sufficient. I did not read the scriptures while a Catholic so I never knew what they really said on the subject. I know for a fact that I was not a biblical Christian while a Catholic. I can't speak for all.
I would challenge the claim that you came to the view that you did simply by reading the Bible. The sequence was probably something along the lines of someone telling you what the Bible teaches, and then showing you the passages to support that, which you read and could see for yourself which confirmed what they just told you. Am I correct? Catholics do the same thing. The only difference is how they read it, with which presuppositions held in mind as they read a passage, versus the presuppositions held in mind for the "Biblical Christian" when they read a passage.

The challenge I make to all this is that looking at someone just reading it from a completely blank slate, without any suggestions from anyone whatsoever, will they in an absolutely independent fashion conclude the same things as one particular group does over the other? I more than doubt that. Having no beginning frame of reference in reading the texts will leave them with something that will be quite foreign to the beliefs that any one particular group holds. If you find at the end of the day, "I believe pretty much everything they teach in the Nazarene church," for instance, only confirms the prior conditioning that went into what was being read.

Granted, there are underlying reasons why someone is attracted to a set of teaching over another, which I have no doubt pertains to yourself as well as anyone leaving one group for another within a religion, that's as true of me as it is of you, but make no mistake, how you read a text will be conditioned by the thoughts and ideas of those who share similar temperaments and views as yourself. All in all, what we read is completely relative to our subjective realities.

Claims it is "objective" let alone "authoritative" because you read it as something external to yourself, is simply false. The subjective self interprets what is "objective", because it sees itself in it. All interpretations are primed by the context within which one reads it, filtered through one's own subjective conditioning of culture, language, beliefs, and personal and group values. This is universally true, without exception.

It is prideful when some set themselves apart with a arrogant, self-exalting attitude, but it is not prideful if one simply uses the term to distinguish between true or false teachings to prevent deception of themselves and others.
But it is prideful to judge another's approach to God as "false teachings" or "deception of themselves and others". I keep coming back to Paul's wisdom when he explicitly talks about this attitude of judging another's beliefs and practices as "false":

One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.​

In other words, if a Catholic uses a rosary and recites the Lord's Prayer in mantra sytle of worship, who are you to judge another man's servant? He or she does so to the Lord, as Paul says. Who are you to say they are practicing "false teachings" or or deceiving themselves or others? This does not seem in accord with the Spirit of Truth. It is consistent with pridefulness, however.

It is not meaningless when you consider that many people or groups add extra requirements to the scriptures, disregard, or twist the teachings of the Bible for their own agendas, gain, or control.
Personally, I think all of them do that. It's the nature of the human ego to see ourselves as right and others who are not like us as wrong. Each mold the teachings of the Bible for their own agendas, gain, and control. It's not until we are beyond the ego that that stops. Then at that point, you begin to see all religions as doing the same thing, or rather being used the same way by the ego to support its own positions of rightness in opposition to others.

Beyond the ego, it's all seen through the eyes of Love, as simply tools which people use to seek the Divine in ways that fit their needs, be that in traditional religious forms, or some new startup form which makes the claim it's the "true religion". Again, it's all the same thing.

Yes, even if one has never heard of the Bible, I believe God will lead a sincere seeker to Himself and ultimately that person's beliefs will line up with the scriptures because they are God's words about Himself, humanity, and temporal and eternal reality. This is happening right now in Islamic countries.
I agree that if one is truly hearing and responding to God, they will all align with the Love, which Jesus taught about. They will align with it, even if they remain practicing that Love through their respective religions of birth. One does not need to convert to a religion or a practice of religion to align with the Truth that Jesus taught, to "Love God with all your heart.. and love your neighbor as yourself.". Christianity at is essence is a spiritual attitude, a practice of being in the world through a heart of Love, not a set of religious doctrines.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Is there really any such thing, or is this a mythology? I believe it is a created myth in order to bolster an image of authority to a particular set of beliefs and values, typically conservative/fundamentalist in nature. It is a moniker created as a political slogan in order to create a sense of validity and authority to their specific views."It's not my words, but God's!", which is of course a false position for any human to say. Everything read from the Bible, is subjective to personal or group interpretations. Recognizing that fact, begins to open oneself to self-awareness and our particular biases which divide rather than unite.

In reality, there never was such as thing as "Biblical Christianity", especially in the early church. There was no Bible for the early Christians. There was no "official collection" of books that they all agreed upon, and held up as a source of authority for the first couple hundred years. Yet, they were Christians, who did not have a "Bible", let alone "follow" it.

What were they really following then, if it wasn't the Bible? What is Christianity about then, if it's not about "following the Bible"? What is it supposed to be following then, if they Bible is handled in such ways that people hide their prejudices behind what they are reading? Is Christianity founded in the Bible, or something else? What is the reality of Christianity, since "Biblical Christianity" is a created myth?


That can be answered , the early Christians went by scrolls which were called books.

Then later all the scrolls were compiled into one book, which we call The Bible.

Bible means Books within a book = Bible

Thats all the bible is, books within a book.

As for Biblical Christianity,. Seeing how the scrolls were called books.
So that means there was Biblical Christianity.
It seems your trying to be an expert, but lacking what biblical Christianity really is.

If Christianity was to be called
The scrolls of Christianity
The Books of Christianity

Which all means the same thing
Biblical Christianity.

Seeing how the bible contains books within a book, which are called scrolls.
And the scrolls are called books.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Jesus said that he would guide his Church 'til the end of time, which involved adjusting to new situations but without deviating from the general norm of the gospels. IOW, the Church was never a static entity, nor could it have been and survived until today. .
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sort of. Catholics have Christ, not the Pope. The position of Pope is historically very problematic for them. I think they are stuck with it rather than needing it. The pope couldn't hold anything together as evidenced by the Reformation, which (I consider) was an angry, toxic mess. Also Christians have Christ, not the Bible, to keep us together. The Bible has been, similarly, problematic -- a real hot potato.
Hi Brick. Nice to meet ya. I love your "Liberal almost a quaker" moniker. :)

Catholics have a lot more than just "Christ." All Christians have 'Christ' but disagree on soooooo many things. Catholics have an entire catechism (a very thick book indeed) of things they agree on (plus the Bible). They have the Pope plus the Bishops in unison (I hope I'm saying this right, my Catholic friends). IOW the Magisterium. It's a far cry from the everyone interpets it for themselfism of the Protestants.

I agree that the Reformation was a mess. I really think Luther would have been tolerated had he not been such a terrible jerk to the Pope -- it became personal when he started calling the Pope nasty names and stuff. The eventual Catholic Reformation would have happened a little later, but it still would have happened. It was interesting to watch the two sides make nicey nice this year on the 500th anniversary.
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
The eventual Catholic Reformation would have happened a little later, but it still would have happened. It was interesting to watch the two sides make nicey nice this year on the 500th anniversary.
I'm putting the quotes in reverse order to build up in my reply. Yes. There were pressures building to bursting that Luther far as I know had nothing to do with.

I agree that the Reformation was a mess. I really think Luther would have been tolerated had he not been such a terrible jerk to the Pope -- it became personal when he started calling the Pope nasty names and stuff.
I can't say that I know a lot about Luther besides reading one middle school biography on him, but it seems a lot like he saw opportunity and took it rather than that he engineered a reformation. As a very stylish man he added his own style to things, saw a wave coming and rode it to power.

Catholics have a lot more than just Christ. All Christians have 'Christ' but disagree on soooooo many things. Catholics have an entire catechism (a very thick book indeed) of things they agree on (plus the Bible). They have the Pope plus the Bishops in unison (I hope I'm saying this right, my Catholic friends). IOW the Magisterium. It's a far cry from the everyone interpets it for themselfism of the Protestants.
The observation you make that the catechism and magisterium keep them together is unfortunate if true, because to me its like saying catholicism has failed. I'm sure you don't mean to be arguing that; but catholicism is based supposedly on the visions of your prophets (feel free to correct me) that people will someday no longer need such things and will all live happily together. I'm sure the magisterium claims to be necessary. I prefer to think that catholicism is a living creature which everything else clings to parasitically, but of course that could be my background talking.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The observation you make that the catechism and magisterium keep them together is unfortunate if true, because to me its like saying catholicism has failed. I'm sure you don't mean to be arguing that; but catholicism is based supposedly on the visions of your prophets (feel free to correct me) that people will someday no longer need such things and will all live happily together. I'm sure the magisterium claims to be necessary. I prefer to think that catholicism is a living creature which everything else clings to parasitically, but of course that could be my background talking.
I'm not Catholic, I'm Jewish. But I've studied Christianity, as I've studied all the world religions (though Christianity more than the others). The Reformation era is a critical time, so I'm familiar with it.

Why do you think Catholicism has failed because it has the Magisterium? That's like saying Judaism has failed because it has halakhah. It doesn't negate Judaism being a living religion. I see these as points of strength and stability rather than the other way around.

You mentioned Catholic prophets. Do Catholics have prophets outside the Bible? I don't know, but then again I'm not Catholic. Perhaps a Catholic can reply to that part of your post. For Jews the prophetic era is over.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Could you clarify the above?

According to the RCC Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation and justification, the sacraments are necessary among other things.

Rome’s necessary physical Sacraments
In spite of clear Biblical teaching, the Catholic Church claims that the actions and rituals of men are the effective means of grace. The sacraments are declared to be necessary for salvation and the means of grace. This teaching is so emphatic that Sacramental grace through their physical sacraments is declared to be the grace of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Church of Rome officially teaches,

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ‘Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament.”5

“The whole liturgical life of the [Roman Catholic] Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments. There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.”6

Salvation and the Sacraments | Berean Beacon

Then you weren't listening and/or reading Catholic materials.
Just the catechism.

That's on you as don't you have a Bible? Right now I'm in a 20 week study of Matthew's gospel at my local Catholic Church, and I was involved in another multi-week study of the gospels last year.
I'm glad you have been involved in a study of Matthew's gospel, but when I was raised in the Catholic Church, our family never read the Bible, none of my Catholic friends did, my Catholic relatives to this day do not, so I think it is reasonable to say most Catholics don't read the scriptures. There are exceptions, I'm sure like yourself.

Catholics are "biblical Christians".

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that you've found a church that you feel comfortable in, but please be careful not to misportray what Catholicism does actually teach.

Do you think former priests and nuns misportray Catholicism when they reveal differences they know and understand between the teachings and requirements of the Catholic Church and the message of salvation through Christ in the Bible?
Former Priests | Berean Beacon
Former Nuns | Berean Beacon
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think Catholicism has failed because it has the Magisterium? That's like saying Judaism has failed because it has halakhah. It doesn't negate Judaism being a living religion. I see these as points of strength and stability rather than the other way around.
Catholicism hasn't failed, yet; unless its in its final form. One of the claimed aims in the catholic canon: destroy all authority and power. (from 1 Corinthians 15:26) Its curious to think catholicism is going to do that with a magisterium which is itself authoritative and powerful.

Judaism is a whole different story. Its a country that's been transposed into a migrant culture which nevertheless retains citizenship standards. Allow me to attempt an analogy: Judaism looks like a mobile DMV. It comes to you, but its got forms. Catholicism presupposes that all of those forms are no longer part of the process, and everybody is licensed without registering. You just drive. The magisterium is like a man who is saying "Wait, wait wait this is too crazy for me we need a DMV and a licensing program." Judaism and Catholicism are two different ways of doing things. Naturally you like what you are familiar with: structure. Don't we all? There is quite a challenge in getting rid of structure, but catholicism is supposed to take up that challenge. If it doesn't, and if it gives up on that then its not catholicism.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Catholicism hasn't failed, yet; unless its in its final form. One of the claimed aims in the catholic canon: destroy all authority and power. (from 1 Corinthians 15:26) Its curious to think catholicism is going to do that with a magisterium which is itself authoritative and powerful.
Well 1 Corinthians 15:26 says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For you to take it so far out of context as to claim it makes a catholic objective to destroy all authority and power makes me wonder how much I can have a rational discussion with you, since I can't trust you to read documents in a reasonable manner. IOW, if you can't read 1Corinthians in context, what makes me think I can trust you to read my own posts in context?

Judaism is a whole different story. Its a country that's been transposed into a migrant culture which nevertheless retains citizenship standards.
When people understand that Israel is a tribal thing (not DNA, not race, not religion) they understand it a lot better. The issue of a homeland while still being able to exist outside of the homeland becomes instantly clear, as does the idea of having a tribal religion while still being a member of the tribe without embracing the tribal religion.

I have to say, I completely don't understand your DMV analogy. I see nothing but similarity between Catholicism's use of sacred text, tradition, and canon law, and Judaism's use of sacred texts and Oral Torah. We have lots and lots of differences of course. But certainly we are alike in this one way.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Well 1 Corinthians 15:26 says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For you to take it so far out of context as to claim it makes a catholic objective to destroy all authority and power makes me wonder how much I can have a rational discussion with you, since I can't trust you to read documents in a reasonable manner. IOW, if you can't read 1Corinthians in context, what makes me think I can trust you to read my own posts in context?
Please excuse the verse reference which was off by 2. It said "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." The verse number 15:26 was wrong. I meant to refer to 15:24. I could have corrected this by quoting the entire verse, and I appreciate your taking the time to reply. :( Sorry.

To add more context I point out the beginning of the gospels begin with a figure named John the Baptist whose sermons are based upon a section of Isaiah which calls for a leveling of high and low places. For John and Jesus, these high places are figuratively talking about political power, wealth, the wise people and the righteous. The height is talking about those kind of qualities. The low places are the powerless, the poor, the weak, the uneducated and the less righteous. John the Baptist sets the stage for catholicism, a faith which is universally for all; and he interprets Isaiah to mean that all must be equal to make straight the path for the 'LORD'. Thus he opposes the various groups: sadducees, various pharisees etc. Everybody wise gets slapped down and called a viper, except for the poor, stupid and less righteous people. The poor people he complements. The theme is often repeated in Jesus statements and throughout the NT. The passage I quoted to you about the destruction of authority and power fits it like a glove. That's catholicism's vision of the future. Where does a magisterium fit into it? Eventually it has to come off like training wheels.

When people understand that Israel is a tribal thing (not DNA, not race, not religion) they understand it a lot better. The issue of a homeland while still being able to exist outside of the homeland becomes instantly clear, as does the idea of having a tribal religion while still being a member of the tribe without embracing the tribal religion.
Yes.

I have to say, I completely don't understand your DMV analogy. I see nothing but similarity between Catholicism's use of sacred text, tradition, and canon law, and Judaism's use of sacred texts and Oral Torah. We have lots and lots of differences of course. But certainly we are alike in this one way.
The appearance of similarities can mislead. Catholicism is an ideal like utopia is an ideal; and it is a goal, like equality is a goal. It is a truth in a world made out of faith, and that world wants to shape this world and become true here. In faith it already has become so in our future, but this does not imply that the magisterium holds sway over the world nor that it will. Instead it implies the end of all such things.

My DMV analogy (maybe not so clear) was part of me trying to expand on the verse that was mis-referenced and point out that while it may appear that Roman Catholicism looks similar to some branch of Judaism right now, that isn't necessarily an indication that the magisterium is part of the catholic dream.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Please excuse the verse reference which was off by 2. It said "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." The verse number 15:26 was wrong. I meant to refer to 15:24. I could have corrected this by quoting the entire verse, and I appreciate your taking the time to reply. :( Sorry.

To add more context I point out the beginning of the gospels begin with a figure named John the Baptist whose sermons are based upon a section of Isaiah which calls for a leveling of high and low places. For John and Jesus, these high places are figuratively talking about political power, wealth, the wise people and the righteous. The height is talking about those kind of qualities. The low places are the powerless, the poor, the weak, the uneducated and the less righteous. John the Baptist sets the stage for catholicism, a faith which is universally for all; and he interprets Isaiah to mean that all must be equal to make straight the path for the 'LORD'. Thus he opposes the various groups: sadducees, various pharisees etc. Everybody wise gets slapped down and called a viper, except for the poor, stupid and less righteous people. The poor people he complements. The theme is often repeated in Jesus statements and throughout the NT. The passage I quoted to you about the destruction of authority and power fits it like a glove. That's catholicism's vision of the future. Where does a magisterium fit into it? Eventually it has to come off like training wheels.
Oh, I'm so glad it was a typo!!!! Yeay! Man I thought I was in the twilight zone for a moment there. I'm so glad you are a normal person. LOL

Catholicism dreams of an ideal world to come. Most of it they believe will be achieve when, as they teach, their messiah-god returns, who will accomplish things that humanity on it's own could never manage. In this they share much of the messianic vision with us Jews, the wolf lying down with the lamb and all that. But more than in ages gone by, they are not willing to wait until the messianic era to make progress towards those ends. They believe they are to do whatever they can right now to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, help the oppressed, and work towards peace.

This doesn't mean that they are out to vanquish all authority. I don't know where you got this idea from. Indeed, I have found that the Catholic church is one of the most supportive of civil insitutions. It's hard to put into words, and is more an impression than anything else, but they kind of have a thing about God being present in the world, and so God would be present in institutions. They TRUST institutions, which is why they tend to have very little oversight/supervision and get blindsided too often. They are supportive of police departments and civic organizations, and are patriotic. OMGosh, I sound like a commercial for Blue Bloods LOL. The Vatican is not opposed to national governments -- it just wants them to get along and play nicely.

If there's any Catholics out there who feel I've misrepresented you or feel like you want to add more, please do speak up.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, I'm so glad it was a typo!!!! Yeay! Man I thought I was in the twilight zone for a moment there. I'm so glad you are a normal person. LOL
Thanks. I hope I am a normal person, too. :

Catholicism dreams of an ideal world to come. Most of it they believe will be achieve when, as they teach, their messiah-god returns, who will accomplish things that humanity on it's own could never manage. In this they share much of the messianic vision with us Jews, the wolf lying down with the lamb and all that. But more than in ages gone by, they are not willing to wait until the messianic era to make progress towards those ends. They believe they are to do whatever they can right now to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, help the oppressed, and work towards peace.

This doesn't mean that they are out to vanquish all authority. I don't know where you got this idea from. Indeed, I have found that the Catholic church is one of the most supportive of civil insitutions. It's hard to put into words, and is more an impression than anything else, but they kind of have a thing about God being present in the world, and so God would be present in institutions. They TRUST institutions, which is why they tend to have very little oversight/supervision and get blindsided too often. They are supportive of police departments and civic organizations, and are patriotic. OMGosh, I sound like a commercial for Blue Bloods LOL. The Vatican is not opposed to national governments -- it just wants them to get along and play nicely.
Thanks I will take your ideas into consideration. The idea of it somehow just fits to me. It fits all of the stories. I get what you are saying though about the belief that God is in the world. That idea really started to click for me after I took a course in the history of technology. Its I think why pagan holidays are considered now to be Christian ones and why Christians eat bacon and have yoga classes. There is nothing wrong with working towards peace. There is something un catholic to me, however, about magisteriums. There just is, and it seems like a monument to some past grasps for power among petty politicians. I can't accept it being catholic.
 
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