1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Belief versus knowledge

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Cockadoodledoo, May 27, 2018.

  1. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +45
    Religion:
    Now I don’t know
    Let’s say That I write a book containing chapter after chapter of supposedly truth,
    And then I ask you to believe it.
    I ask you to believe it because, obviously, by yourself you can’t verify the truth.
    Wouldn’t it have been better if I had took some other approach,
    An approach whereby you didn’t have to rely on your powers of belief?
    An approach whereby you had firsthand knowledge of the truth.

    For example let’s say you’re an Eskimo in the Artic,
    And I give you a book describing the properties of a magnet and claim it’s the truth.
    A better approach might be to show you a magnet and some iron filings,
    And demonstrate what a magnet can do.

    So let’s take another example........the Bible versus a personal miracle.
    (A personal miracle may for example be the constant vision of a cross in the sky witnessed by all humanity)
    Whereas the Bible supposedly contains truth but can’t be verified & requires belief,
    The cross in the sky gives all firsthand knowledge of the truth of God.

    So I would say knowledge is superior to belief.
    So why then are we not presented with knowledge in this way to verify God’s existence?
    Why go to all the trouble of documenting ‘facts’ in the Bible if, at the end of the day, belief is required?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,947
    Ratings:
    +17,802
    Religion:
    Judaism
    You seem to view Eskimo (a questionable term) with curious condescension.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,126
    Ratings:
    +37,789
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    In epistemology, belief by itself is not considered knowledge.

    For something to be considered knowledge, it must meet at least three tests, so to speak (plus a very technical condition I'll not go into here, for the sake of simplicity):

    First, it must be a belief.

    Second, it must be a true belief.

    Third, it must be justified. That is, one must have a good reason, or "justification", for thinking one's belief is true.

    So, knowledge in epistemology is "a justified true belief", and not merely a belief -- or even merely a true belief.

    By the common standards of epistemology, some key claims in the Bible that are often enough called, "knowledge" by the faithful, would not in fact be considered "knowledge" to an epistemologist -- even if they happened to be true beliefs, but still were not justified true beliefs.

    For instance, the notion God exists most likely would not be considered knowledge by rigorous epistemological standards even if it were a true belief that God exists.

    In this case, the 2,300 year old traditions of Western epistemology jive well with the OP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +45
    Religion:
    Now I don’t know
    I suppose in a way.......
    I find it a bit strange that I could spend a year reading the Bible (and not fully understanding it) when a simple cross in the sky for all to see would suffice.

    Or is that an unreasonable request?
     
  5. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,521
    Ratings:
    +2,817
    Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets -- neither Freud nor research -- neither the revelations of God nor man -- can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction

    Carl Rogers.

    That's about the best quote I know to cut through the crap.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,947
    Ratings:
    +17,802
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I suspect that the theoretical possibilities would include ...
    • you're not very bright,
    • you're looking at it through the wrong lens, and/or
    • you're the victim of unreasonable expectations.
    I'd recommend discounting the first and focusing on the latter two.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +45
    Religion:
    Now I don’t know
    I’ve read all the New Testament and a third of the Old Testament,
    It’s the longest book I’ve ever partly read.

    If you were God do you think you’d take his approach to religious matters and why?
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,947
    Ratings:
    +17,802
    Religion:
    Judaism
    And that speaks volumes.

    If I were God I wouldn't waste my time sparring with juvenile efforts to ridicule the tanakh.
     
    #8 Jayhawker Soule, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +45
    Religion:
    Now I don’t know
    Is it not reasonable to ask questions?
    Surely curiosity’s a good thing?
    And are there some questions off limits?
    And what’s the Tanaka, is it the Old Testament?
     
  10. Base12

    Base12 In time, you will see it.

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2015
    Messages:
    147
    Ratings:
    +39
    Religion:
    Christian
    Whether you are talking about the Bible, Science or 1+1=2... everything starts out as a theory until proven as a fact.

    You mention a Magnet...
    Jesus rules with an Iron Rod. The Iron Rod *is* a Magnet and represents Electromagnetism.

    You mention the Cross...
    When One studies the meaning Scripturally, One will find that the Cross represents the Human Chromosome.

    The problem is that some folks don't want to know the facts as they are uncomfortable with them. That's the real problem here.
     
  11. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    48,643
    Ratings:
    +21,900
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    A belief in itself is fine but a belief in order for it to be valid will need substance to back it up.

    I'm sure most of us heard about fisherman tales, about how they had caught the biggest fish. Heh. It would help immensely for the believability department for the fisherman to actually have the biggest fish.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    It helps to actually know what the words mean, contextually.

    Know is personal; in other words, what we believe we know, informs our beliefs.

    Belief, can be evidenced, or not.

    In religious usage, belief is not specific, to personal knowing; so the personal belief, may or may not be evidenced. Thusly, the belief, is the important aspect, not whether the person believes they know, or not.

    'Know', being personal, is not apt for description of the religious belief, either in a religious sense, or a practical sense.

    /
    In non religious usage:
    Know, being personal, for example, you can personally 'know', many, things, is not good for presenting your beliefs, because what you are really presenting, is your belief; in other words, what you believe you know.
     
    #12 Desert Snake, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  13. Base12

    Base12 In time, you will see it.

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2015
    Messages:
    147
    Ratings:
    +39
    Religion:
    Christian
    Again, you can prove the existence of God all day long and some folks simple choose not to believe. Even if God himself came to talk to these people.

    Some people are simply in denial and refuse to wake up.

    Some people know God exists, yet claim otherwise due to Mental Illness or perhaps for money and/or secret agenda.

    The Bible is written in a language that has to be understood by anyone in any timeline. Thus, One can't expect it to be written in a fashion we are used to seeing.

    Actually, the Bible is written in a Holographic Language that the military uses called 'Spread Spectrum'. That in itself is proof the Bible was written by a Superior Intellect.
     
  14. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +45
    Religion:
    Now I don’t know
    I Just want to make one more point......

    Let’s say the Eskimo read the book on magnetism (see opening post),
    And asked to see a magnet and iron filings,
    But I said to him......
    I’m not going to waste my time showing you one of those magnets!
    In a way, isn’t that me being juvenile?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Base12

    Base12 In time, you will see it.

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2015
    Messages:
    147
    Ratings:
    +39
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not if you're dealing with a 'Troll' or 'Boy who cried wolf' type of person.

    If One is genuinely seeking knowledge and Wisdom, then you would have no problem teaching.
     
  16. Base12

    Base12 In time, you will see it.

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2015
    Messages:
    147
    Ratings:
    +39
    Religion:
    Christian
    By the way...

    Ezekiel 1:27
    "And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about"


    Amber is where we get the word Electron.

    Ezekiel was seeing Electrons as 'Eyes round about'.

    God is teaching electromagnetism to us in a way that can be understood by anyone at any time in any language. Quite an accomplishment!
     
  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    23,838
    Ratings:
    +13,211
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    There are several problems, here. The "cross in the sky" could always be a magician's trick, or some similar falsely understood or misrepresented "truth". Also, humans beings are not capable of experiencing truth, as a whole, and partial bits of truth are only "relatively truthful". Meaning that they are only true relative to other presumed and relative bits of truth. (We generally call these facts.) So, neither hearing the "truth" from others, nor experiencing the "truth" ourselves, is going to assure us of having gain "the truth". Because the truth is, we humans cannot access the whole truth, and partial truths are only partially true; relative to the perspective of validation.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,655
    Ratings:
    +1,698
    Contextual to the thread: Most of the time, a belief in God, means that the person personally believes they know, that God exists, via whatever.

    Sometimes, people who do not personally believe that they know, that God exists, will predicate their theism with 'agnostic theist', or such. This informs others that they personally either do not believe they know, that God exists, or, they believe that it cannot be known, whether a god exists.
     
  19. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    16,417
    Ratings:
    +6,396
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Why document any history from the past (Biblical or non-Biblical) if belief is required? Because people want to tell people things and we now have to use our own intelligence and reason to form our judgment on what we are told. I believe there are truths and errors in the Bible in my judgment.

    On a broader note, I believe we are in the process of each personally expanding our understanding. The joy of an intellectual being is in growing and expanding understanding.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,947
    Ratings:
    +17,802
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I suspect that would depend on the question.
    Surely.
    Of course.
    You clearly have much to learn, grasshopper.
     
Loading...