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Before Big Bang

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Yes, it is, when the one thing explains the idea in terms most people can understand.

Sure, and yet calling the gravity and density of a singularity "infinite" works pretty well as a layman's description.

How is this even an explanation? Finite, and infinite are two completely separate ideas. It is either infinite, or finite. there is absolutely no in between. If they mean one thing and say another it's hypocritical.

"Lay term" is no excuse for misrepresenting the information.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:

The big bang theory is a scientific theory based on many verified observations and a lot of data.

The only verifiable evidence I know of for the popular big bang theory is cosmic background radiation and redshift.

Redshift seems to be in doubt yet the high priests of cosmology won`t even consider their evidence may be flawed.

Do you know of any other verified evidence?
It it sounds like you do.

Edit:

Come to think of it the uniformity of cosmic background radiation has taken a few hits lately as well.

None of the predictions of the background temperature based on the Big Bang was close enough to qualify as successes, the worst being Gamow’s upward-revised estimate of 50 K made in 1961, just two years before the actual discovery. Clearly, without a realistic quantitative prediction, the Big Bang’s hypothetical “fireball” becomes indistinguishable from the natural minimum temperature of all cold matter in space (2002, 9:73-74, parenthetical item in orig., emp. added).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/30

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/30
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/30
 
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madhatter85

Transhumanist
:rolleyes:

Let's look at this the right way:

The big bang theory is a scientific theory based on many verified observations and a lot of data. It's not simply conjecture, like someone saying "Oh, well, it must have been some kind of god, because I can't imagine any other way". Nice try at discrediting it with your dishonesty, though.

You have misrepresented not only the theory of the big bang, but have misrepresented our beliefs as well. Saying there is a God is not caused by simply not being able to explain phenomenon. A lot of Atheists think that a belief in God is somehow a way for us to "explain the unexplainable." This is a false way of thinking.

My belief in God does not rest on the shoulders of not being able to explain something any other way. In fact, I believe that through science we can learn how God performs his works.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
One, you are talking to an atheist, you should be aware that I do not count religious books or scriptures as empirical evidence. Two, where does it say there is a contradiction between the Big Bang and the existence of a creator?

you make the mistake of thinking I am against the idea of the big bang theory because of my belief in God. This is wrong.

The Big bang just simply does not add up. I can see why scientists would think of it as one possibility. However, It is conjecture based on pieces of information we have gathered about the universe, but recent findings (even as early as the late 70's) suggest otherwise.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Only if you mean "empirical" as in "derived from or guided by experience". However, that's not what was meant. Basically, the evidence for your god is some people's words.
No, my belief in God is supported by those witnesses. However, the core of why I believe in God is through personal experience. I am my own witness and so is every other active LDS member. Our witness is then reinforced by the witness of those around us.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Here is my theory on whats going on. (repost from an early thread).

Many religious people are becoming more accepting of a big bang because it matches their own genesis story closely with minor modifications.

The current scientific theory indicates from the repeatable evidence of Hubble's red shift phenomena, that all viewable galaxies appear to be expanding away from a central point in our universe. Extrapolating back in time, we get to the point, where all matter must have been in a single tiny place/volume, a singularity, which consequently exploded to give us our expanding universe ie the "Big Bang". Lets call this singularity the Alpha point. Yes there s a chance this is wrong and it was actually used as a football at Wembley Stadium, but most of the available evidence points to this rather large singularity back at our beginning.

It would be bit foolish to challenge this evidence, it is fairly strong. This leads us to 3 possible types of Universe. The first as initially proposed by Einstein and Hoyle was consistent with the historical concept that the universe was locked in a continually static state. In 1927, Georges Lemaître, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest, predicted that the recession of a nearby spiral nebulae was due to the expansion of the universe. Keep up the good work, Brother. Because of the red shift phenomena this static model has been demonstrated to be false. This leaves us with the remaining two possibilities.

It could be a continually expanding universe, in other words the gravitational attraction of the total universe is not enough to arrest the expansion, so the universe will expand add infinitum. The down side of this is that eventually the stars will run out of fuel, die and drift further and further apart until we end up with a dilute wide spread dead cold dark universe and that's that. It also implies the big bang was a one off event, very suspect (Who put it there? Where did it come from?)

The final choice is one where the universe expands rapidly initially but slows down under the influence of the universal gravity, eventually stopping and then collapses back on itself, to a tiny point again (lets call this the Omega Point). It is fully possible immediately following the collapse that this omega point becomes an alpha point which then immediately explodes again repeating the process in a new big bang and off we go again as a cyclic universe. (So our universal singularity is the alpha and the omega point. - PUN)

I concur with Einsteins later model, this final explanation seems most logical, as in nature, the simplest possibility is usually the correct mechanism. However many of my scientific colleagues have done some serious maths and physics concluding that from current observations there is not enough matter to produce the gravity needed to arrest the expansion and initialize a contraction. There is a short fall in the mass by about a half. Hence the current massive research into this hidden stuff called "Dark Matter". There is also the general assumption that time and the universe started uniquely at this "big bang" event and that nothing existed before this event, This is often based on the scientific comment that the physics gets a bit weird with these super particles so as we cannot observe them or anything prior we can therefore not demonstrate anything that would be acceptable scientifically as we have no evidence prior to the big bang. There may be nothing before the Big Bang or there may have been something that existed prior to the Big Bang, or possibly a God took it from Wembley Stadium and put it there.. again a probability but this time there is no evidence to support any of the hypothesis.

In terms of our current universe this is true, since it was born in this big bang, This does not mean that there was nothing before. It just says we don't have enough evidence yet to comment on anything before this period. I therefore would suggest one major possibility is the cyclic universe. It then relies on the relatively simple concept that it has always existed and will always continue to exist naturally, without having any super deity having to have whipped it up in his kitchen.

But I have just stated that my colleagues have proved this is not possible. The beauty of science. After testing of new ideas a hypothesis can be modified as many times as are necessary, gradually honing it, ultimately culminating with a match that is the truth.

OK what I am about to hypothesize is my own theory based on the knowledge I have gained in my 40 years as a scientist. The above calculations boil down to the simple GMm/R^2, ie the gravitational equation.

Now our old mate Einstien came up with another simple formula himself ie E=mc^2.

Lets do a quick substitution

E=mc^2
therefore
m=E/c^2

Now we have

GMm/R^2

Substitute m=E/c^2

(Gx(E/c^2)x(e/c^2))/R^2

=GEe/c^4R^2

Why have I substituted Mass for its energy equivalent?

Consider the Big Bang an explosive event packing a lot of energy. Whether immediately because of breach of the Schwartzchild radius equivalent or delayed due to the intense gravitational force, one of the first things to expand away at the speed of light from the "big bang" alpha point, is light itself, photons. If the Universe is 15 Billion years old then this would represent a sphere of 30 billion light years diameter at present. (Although its SN distance would calculated as a much greater distance.)Lets call this the photoshell. (have you ever watched footage of an old nuclear blast?). As the embryonic universe cools various Bosons and Fermions coalesce out of the chaotic maelstrom of very hot quark soup cools immediately after the big bang. This might have been 3 minutes or 300,000 years later (not important) matter and anti matter annihilate each other generating a large number of photons, and a small residual excess of matter.

As I wasn't actually there at the time, I will have to put my neck out a bit here. May I suggest that it started as basically a massive spherical explosion, with an initial central single very large detonation (read Impulse) radiating force outward. This seathing blob bang thing has huge inertia so a lot of the energy remains contained for a short time while it expands to accommodate being continuously blown outward and apart. The outer surface of the expanding cloud will be cooler than the inner zone allowing earlier condensation of quarks to hadrons and generating vast quantities of photons. Given conservation of momentum laws, the rate a particle will move away from an explosion (its Velocity) is inversely proportional to its mass. Thus given, all particles came under the influence of this explosive force almost simultaneously, assuming the same impulse (ie Force x time), then we could expect to see, a series of expanding shells where the outer ones consist of the lightest particles traveling a extremely high velocity (eg Leptons such as electrons) followed by succeeding shells of heavier slower particles, proton (Hydrogen) shell, neutron shell, alpha particle shell (Helium).... Uranium shell etc...etc. traveling away at slower speeds. It would be nice to see some these shells but they are probably so far away now we may never be able to observe them.
Would they emit any detectable radiation?

Larger coalesced objects were quasi-stable, exploding regularly until smaller lumps (Hadrons) that were more stable remained all moving outward from the force of the initial impulse. Now these particles all have measurable mass, are affected by gravity and the laws of conservation of momentum apply. Because of the difference in mass between our lightest particles eg electrons and the "mass less" photons (although one would think they must have some tiny mass because they are affected by gravity), there would be a huge distance between the outer Photo shell and the next inner Hadron shells the first of which will be the neutrino shells then the negative electron shell. Muons in close succession then a big gap to the positively charged inner Hadron layers of the Proton and neutron shells

Another interesting feature of this model, if I am correct so far, would be the presence of a larger outer negatively charged shell composed of lighter leptons such as electrons. Well within this shell will be the smaller heavier shell of protons this time with a positive charge. Given positive attracts negative one might ponder what interesting effects and interactions these two spatially separated charged spheres may initiate.

The whole point of this model is that it consists of a number of shells within shells, a bit like an onion. We as humans on earth reside within the inner most shells, the heaviest zone. So how can I prove all this? I am not sure I can at present, but as another hypothesis such as those by supernatural creator "anti-chance" theorists here. I believe it is as valid and probably has more thought process in it. Importantly it is not excluded by anything in physics.

But whats all this got to do with the universe contracting you say?


Continued Part 2....
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
continued from previous...

So Far All calculations of potential mass have been calculated based on the hadron content of the universe. When added up this falls short of the expected amount. Dark matter has been suggested as the repository of the missing matter but it also falls a bit short.

I would now like to offer my "Bright Matter" theory.

That which has been excluded from this standard universal gravity calculation is the photo-shell, because it is considered massless. I contend that in a closed universe this photosphere must be part of the equation. Hence I suggest much of the missing matter is in fact that mass which was converted to energy E=mc^2 ie light photons (and mega heaps of them at that) which I now represents mass as M=E/c^2=hv/c^2.

If I am correct, then we may indeed have sufficient total Mass/Energy Equivalent to generate enough gravity to arrest the universes expansion allow a contraction back to our initial condition (alpha/omega point) and further to suggest it is quite possible we have a cyclic universe. Lets call it The Phoenix theory.

The problem then becomes, if it has been there the whole time, and will continue to be there forever more, cycling through the phases of explosion expansion, contraction, explosion....ad infinitum. If so, is there a need for a god, when it simply just "is" ie it exists full stop. No start, no finish. In other words the big bang may have occurred as a direct consequence of the previous universes collapse, passing through the alpha omega point and not by chance.

Now this isn't science, it is me hypothesizing a theory based on my knowledge as a scientist, but I would think a bit before dismissing it out of hand.

From my understanding the energy density of the universe was dominated by photons (with a minor contribution from neutrinos) only 10^-5 seconds (ie 0.00001 seconds) after the initial Big Bang. Some theories indicate, similar to a black hole, gravity retained light for a short period. I am not sure I agree totally with their interpretation. But that is another discussion. It is not particularly important as we all concur that a some point, shortly after the big bang there was a very large burst of light, predominantly in the gamma region from nuclear interactions rather than Xray-UV-Vis-IR typical of far weaker electronic transitions.

The evidence we have would seem to bring us very close in time to the actual Big Bang event. In fact we can go back to within 10^-37 of a second of it, with some degree of certainty and evidence. If these are correct I think it would be fair to say that processes which are causal resulted in a predictable out come ie light is emitted.

Surely Particle Physics after 50 years has demonstrated enough evidence overwhelmingly supporting the theory for even the most skeptical. Again Particle Physics is a wonder world of probabilities but its macro effects are very predictable.....


The post then continues to describe pre-evolutionary cosmology, and the initiation of life....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1627046-post228.html

Cheers
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
.... but most of the available evidence points to this rather large singularity back at our beginning.

It would be bit foolish to challenge this evidence, it is fairly strong.

I simply don`t see this.

Do you have an opinion of Arp`s papers on the inconsistent redshift of some quasars and their associated galaxies?

The uniformity of CBR doesn`t bother you a bit when set against the predictions of the BB?
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Arl has cataloged several abnormal quasar - galaxy associations, and proposes that velocity is not the only phenomena that can change a photons apparent energy ie red shift. The problem he points out is that these objects have red shift calculated speeds approaching 80%-100% the speed of light. He may have a point. If the red shift is not due to the tired photon theory, then in these regions of the universe hydrogen must have a lower relative mass and or electric charge such that the electronic transition to various quantum electronic shell jumps and the emission of photons is of lower energy and therefore wavelength. Although if my undergraduate Special Relativity still stands then as an object of mass M approaches the speed of light we get an increase not decrease in the apparent mass, length contracts and time dilates. But its all relative.

It has been proposed interstitial gravitational lenses could also explain some of Arls anomalies.

These objects are not close, they are some of the most distant in both distance and time.

One of the problems of observable astronomy is that we can never see the far side of the universe, we can only see a small presumably representative local region. It is assumed that the big bang was spherical and symetrical, however this is not necessarily correct. For example conservation of angular momentum and the fact that spin is a quantal dimension, indicate we could be dealing with a flattened sphere or disk initially, or even a flare event. So while I see it as quite feasible to see perturbations in the regularity of red shifts, it is not at all surprising we see the odd blue shift and other phenomena.

As one of a myriad of hypothesis in pre big bang space it is equally logical for example to have two or more extremely massive objects each of subcritical mass attracted to each other through gravity gradually spiral about their common center of gravity, maintaining their angular momentum, coming closer together and getting faster and faster ultimately colliding at time 0 creating a critical mass which explodes ie the big bang.

Its the conservation of angular momentum that intrigues me, suggesting that there was not "nothing" before the big bang but in fact a definite something big and it was spinning, and probably very similar to what we observe today.

Cheers
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
How is this even an explanation? Finite, and infinite are two completely separate ideas. It is either infinite, or finite. there is absolutely no in between. If they mean one thing and say another it's hypocritical.

"Lay term" is no excuse for misrepresenting the information.

Way to miss the point yet again. "Infinite" in this case gives the person an idea of the idea they're talking about. When people hear that, they get an idea of what is meant. That's the point of language, is to communicate ideas in ways that others can understand. For instance, I could say someone looks like Richard Gere. They're not the same person, and they may not even look that similar aside from a couple of features, but it at least gives you and idea of the appearance of the persona I'm talking about.

linwood said:
The only verifiable evidence I know of for the popular big bang theory is cosmic background radiation and redshift.

Redshift seems to be in doubt yet the high priests of cosmology won`t even consider their evidence may be flawed.

Do you know of any other verified evidence?
It it sounds like you do.

Yup, just go ahead and read about it, and you'll see all of the evidence. I'm not getting too far into it with you, since I know you've already been presented with the evidence, and yet you choose to be as closed as a fundie on the subject.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
You have misrepresented not only the theory of the big bang,

No, I haven't. The big bang theory is a scientific theory based on a lot of data and observation that's been verified by many different scientists, exactly as I said.

but have misrepresented our beliefs as well. Saying there is a God is not caused by simply not being able to explain phenomenon. A lot of Atheists think that a belief in God is somehow a way for us to "explain the unexplainable." This is a false way of thinking.

My belief in God does not rest on the shoulders of not being able to explain something any other way. In fact, I believe that through science we can learn how God performs his works.

Great, then it's based on a personal experience you had. Either that or a myriad of other improper assumptions. Regardless, it's not based on evidence that can be tested or reproduced on command.

My belief in God does not rest on the shoulders of not being able to explain something any other way. In fact, I believe that through science we can learn how God performs his works.[/quote]

No, my belief in God is supported by those witnesses. However, the core of why I believe in God is through personal experience. I am my own witness and so is every other active LDS member. Our witness is then reinforced by the witness of those around us.

OK, so you believe it because you yourself have witnessed it, but unfortunately you can't quite show it to anyone who wants to see. That's the difference. Scientists have witnessed the evidence for the big bang theory, and they can explain it and show it to anyone who wants to see it.

To a rational person, that's a huge, huge difference.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I simply don`t see this.

Do you have an opinion of Arp`s papers on the inconsistent redshift of some quasars and their associated galaxies?

The uniformity of CBR doesn`t bother you a bit when set against the predictions of the BB?

Yes, we know. For an intelligent, reasonable guy, I'm surprised you've been taken in by this conspiracy theory. But to each his own.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Yes, we know. For an intelligent, reasonable guy, I'm surprised you've been taken in by this conspiracy theory. But to each his own.

I`m an intelligent reasonable guy because I don`t accept heresay and innuendo to establish my beliefs but if that`s all you`ve got to support your position so be it.

Can you account for these serious anomalies within the expansionist big bang theory?

Speak to my points please and lay off the ad hominum.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I`m an intelligent reasonable guy because I don`t accept heresay and innuendo to establish my beliefs but if that`s all you`ve got to support your position so be it.

Can you account for these serious anomalies within the expansionist big bang theory?

Speak to my points please and lay off the ad hominum.

What ad hominem? I said you're an intelligent and reasonable guy. The fact is you, for some reason, have been taken in by this conspiracy theory. I'm not going to address your concerns because (1) they already have been in other threads that I know of, and (2) the best thing you could do to address your problems with the theory is to read expert's works on the subject.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Way to miss the point yet again. "Infinite" in this case gives the person an idea of the idea they're talking about. When people hear that, they get an idea of what is meant. That's the point of language, is to communicate ideas in ways that others can understand. For instance, I could say someone looks like Richard Gere. They're not the same person, and they may not even look that similar aside from a couple of features, but it at least gives you and idea of the appearance of the persona I'm talking about.
But that is not what Hawking suggests. There are plenty of other words that do not misrepresent what he is trying to get at. He is smart enough to utilize other words in the English language, yet he chose "infinite" to represent "finite?"

Either Hawking is an idiot, or you misunderstand the theory. I'm going with the latter.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
No, I haven't. The big bang theory is a scientific theory based on a lot of data and observation that's been verified by many different scientists, exactly as I said.
How is that any different than the witnesses of the divinity of Christ?

Great, then it's based on a personal experience you had. Either that or a myriad of other improper assumptions. Regardless, it's not based on evidence that can be tested or reproduced on command.
Scientists have witnessed the evidence for the big bang theory, and they can explain it and show it to anyone who wants to see it.
On the contrary, it can be reproduced and tested. It is done all the time when the below is followed to the letter. No Active LDS member will tell you that they got where they are in their faith without doing the following:
Moroni 10:
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
nobody ever asked anyone to take their word for it, but to find out for themselves.;)
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
But that is not what Hawking suggests. There are plenty of other words that do not misrepresent what he is trying to get at. He is smart enough to utilize other words in the English language, yet he chose "infinite" to represent "finite?"

Either Hawking is an idiot, or you misunderstand the theory. I'm going with the latter.

Well, all I can do is suggest you look further into it rather than arguing with me. A little research will clear up your misunderstanding.

How is that any different than the witnesses of the divinity of Christ?

Those scientists can show me the observations that led them to their conclusions. I can see all the evidence for myself. As far as I know, I can't do that with Jesus or the Bible.

On the contrary, it can be reproduced and tested. It is done all the time when the below is followed to the letter. No Active LDS member will tell you that they got where they are in their faith without doing the following:
Moroni 10:
Quote:
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

nobody ever asked anyone to take their word for it, but to find out for themselves.;)

And yet, first you have to take someone's word for it. Look, you can deceive yourself all you want, but the fact is that scientific observations can be shown to everyone and anyone, whether or not they "believe" in the conclusions. The same cannot be said for the Bible and Christianity.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Well, all I can do is suggest you look further into it rather than arguing with me. A little research will clear up your misunderstanding.
Already done, i suggest you do the same to clear up your misconceptions regarding the verbiage used in the Big Bang theory


Those scientists can show me the observations that led them to their conclusions. I can see all the evidence for myself. As far as I know, I can't do that with Jesus or the Bible.

And yet, first you have to take someone's word for it. Look, you can deceive yourself all you want, but the fact is that scientific observations can be shown to everyone and anyone, whether or not they "believe" in the conclusions. The same cannot be said for the Bible and Christianity.
You fail to see that you are doing the exact same thing when you listen to Hawking's theory.

Hawking Says, "I have proof, come take a look at these readings from our latest experiment." so you scurry over to see the evidence for yourself. you just acted on faith that Hawking knows how to interpret the data and present a hypothesis based on that data.

Moroni says, "Here is how you can perform the experiment yourself, and you will see what i see and know what i know. Then form a conclusion for yourself. And here is what you will be able to expect."

Do you still fail to see the similarity here? Either way you are initially acting upon someone's proposal.
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
i wonder wouldn't the first atom in the universum be god?
i mean he was the only thing there so he was omnipotent
he was the only one there so he was omnisience
and there is no where els to go so he was omnipresent
 

Amill

Apikoros
How is that any different than the witnesses of the divinity of Christ?

The divinity of Christ aint exactly something people can go back and confirm, especially since the stories don't all match up on details. On the other hand, scientific data can be confirmed by any source that has the ability to do so, and if the data legitly doesn't match other sources, the claim is reexamined with the possibility of being dismissed completely.
 
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