Before Big Bang

[Magic Man]

Do you not know a father's love?
That is why life is so important.
All of the other planets are for his purposes as well, But this one for us is of extra special importance because we are literally his Children.

OK, so then answer the other questions. Why does he need to intervene? Did he forget something? Did he mess something up that needs to be fixed? Was he reminded of something by humans telling him about it?

You also didn't respond to my post directly preceding that one. Can you give me some examples of his intervention?

 

[JMorris]

Do you not know a father's love?
That is why life is so important.
All of the other planets are for his purposes as well, But this one for us is of extra special importance because we are literally his Children.

:cover: well........ its good to be reminded why i stopped participating in this forum for so long........

 

[madhatter85]

OK, so then answer the other questions. Why does he need to intervene? Did he forget something? Did he mess something up that needs to be fixed? Was he reminded of something by humans telling him about it?

You also didn't respond to my post directly preceding that one. Can you give me some examples of his intervention?

I wouldn't say need, but rather he wants to. He wants to because he loves us and wants us to grow while we are here on the earth. That is the whole purpose for this life is for us to learn and grow.

And a loving God that was so involved with his children for such a long time would not just pack up and leave. If there is any time in human history where divine guidance is the most needed, it is now. Which is why we have a prophet on the earth today. Which is why we have had prophets in the past, beginning with Adam.

 

[madhatter85]

:cover: well........ its good to be reminded why i stopped participating in this forum for so long........

yeah i quit for a while too because of all the negativity and bickering.

 

[Magic Man]

I wouldn't say need, but rather he wants to. He wants to because he loves us and wants us to grow while we are here on the earth. That is the whole purpose for this life is for us to learn and grow.

Then shouldn't he have set it up that way to begin with? Why does he have to come back and change things now?

And a loving God that was so involved with his children for such a long time would not just pack up and leave.

Hold up. Now he was involved with us for a long time? I thought we were talking about a god who set everything up and let it go. At least that's what Hawking was talking about.

Plus, that's missing the point. Why would he have been involved to begin with?

If there is any time in human history where divine guidance is the most needed, it is now. Which is why we have a prophet on the earth today. Which is why we have had prophets in the past, beginning with Adam.

Why now? What makes you think right now is any worse than any other period? It seems to me you're falling for the whole "the world's ending" BS that every generation in history has believed. There's nothing worse about the earth right now than there was 100 years ago, or 1,00 years ago.

 

[madhatter85]

Then shouldn't he have set it up that way to begin with? Why does he have to come back and change things now?

Do you not believe in free will?

Hold up. Now he was involved with us for a long time? I thought we were talking about a god who set everything up and let it go. At least that's what Hawking was talking about.

Plus, that's missing the point. Why would he have been involved to begin with?

would you not be involved with your children after having them?

Why now? What makes you think right now is any worse than any other period? It seems to me you're falling for the whole "the world's ending" BS that every generation in history has believed. There's nothing worse about the earth right now than there was 100 years ago, or 1,00 years ago.

on the contrary, I'm not worried about "The world ending" I'm talking about spiritual survival. There are plenty of more convenient things but human nature has not changed, and yes, things are indeed a lot worse than it was a millennia ago. Wars and contentions on a global scale with more destructive powers available to us. the corrupt leaders of companies that were designed to help us but are now simply about the bottom line. The moral degradation of society being acceptable and even fashionable. Yes sir things are worse.

 

[Magic Man]

Do you not believe in free will?

First, no. Why would I believe in free will?

Second, who cares? Are you really implying that our free will is what makes him intervene? So, what you're saying is that he did mess up and is fixing things.

would you not be involved with your children after having them?

I always love these analogies. Equating a human parent with their human children to an all-powerful being that created or organized the universe with humans is a bit of a stretch and is unhelpful.

It doesn't matter how I would act with my children. I wouldn't expect your god to be very much like me.

And, again, the main point is that Hawking said that if God exists, he set everything up and and let it go. You said that jives with what you believe. And yet, here you are contradicting that.

on the contrary, I'm not worried about "The world ending" I'm talking about spiritual survival. There are plenty of more convenient things but human nature has not changed, and yes, things are indeed a lot worse than it was a millennia ago.

If human nature hasn't changed, then why are things so much worse now?

Wars and contentions on a global scale with more destructive powers available to us.

There have always been wars. There is less conflict and killing compared to the number of people now than there was 500 years ago.

the corrupt leaders of companies that were designed to help us but are now simply about the bottom line.

Kind of like the corrupt politicians and religious leaders of every generation?

The moral degradation of society being acceptable and even fashionable. Yes sir things are worse.

What moral degradation? This is what I'm talking about. You buy into the whole "moral decay of society" thing. There's no such thing. Did you happen to miss slavery, revolutions, discrimination against most minorities including Mormons, witch hunts, the Crusades, the Inquisition? Did you happen to miss all of that, or are you just ignoring it?

Things can sometimes seem worse now mostly because we're alive now. 100 years ago was no worse than 500 years ago, despite what those people thought. You also have to remember that these days we hear about a lot more stuff. 50 years ago, we didn't hear the story about the Austrian guy who kept his daughter in the basement and had children with her for decades. Now, we hear every little thing that happens anywhere in the world.

So, no, sir, things are not worse. They just seem that way to you because it's apparently human nature to think that our times are worse than the times that came before us, the same way every new generation of music is worse than the music we grew up with.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Do you not believe in free will?

Tis a side note and not really relevant to the thread...but to answer the question. No.... There is no such thing.

If you posit a god that is the "organizer" then once he/she/it set the wheels in motion there would be no reason for it to intervene if it endowed man with free will. This is not the characteristics of your god from the OT. It sets the wheels in motion but periodically buds in.

 

[Autodidact]

Do you not know a father's love?
That is why life is so important.
All of the other planets are for his purposes as well, But this one for us is of extra special importance because we are literally his Children.

I gather your God is not omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent?

 

[logician]

"Truthfully/Logically, concerning what's in existence, is there any difference in one stating:

1. In the beginning ...God

vs.

2. In the beginning ...Bang

...hmmm?

"

No, which makes god concepts unnecessary and superflous, especially in a chaotic multiverse where matter and energy have existed forever.

 

[madhatter85]

First, no. Why would I believe in free will?

If there is no free will there is no point in living, you are just a puppet.

 

[Autodidact]

There can be simply because there can be. Whether one allows for it or not (not saying this with a smarty tone ...it's just a fact).

And, by the same token, it's quite possible that there is not. We don't know.

God is God of all or God is not God at all. There is nothing in our existence that is not upheld by his power ...in simplicity, if he would not think on it (this universe) it simply would not exist.

Exactly. So you should drop this "God of the Gaps argument. It's bad theology. You end up with a tiny and steadily shrinking God. God, if any, set up the whole shebang.

The argument that we don't know X, Y or Z, therefore God must have done it, is doomed to lead to a crummy little tinkerer God. Why? Because as soon as we figure out X, Y, or Z, which we usually do, there's one less corner for your puny God to hide.

There's no "God of the Gaps," but a God of all that exist.

Or no God. Those are the only two reasonable choices.

 

[Magic Man]

If there is no free will there is no point in living, you are just a puppet.

A puppet of whom? If you take away god, there's no need for free will. For you, I assume free will is the ability to choose God's will or not God's will. If there's no god, there's no God's will, and therefore no need for a term like "free will".

 

[madhatter85]

A puppet of whom? If you take away god, there's no need for free will. For you, I assume free will is the ability to choose God's will or not God's will. If there's no god, there's no God's will, and therefore no need for a term like "free will".

Free will is the ability to chose to turn left or right. If there is no free will you do not get to make that choice. You clearly do not understand the nature of God by making such obscure comments regarding fee will.

 

[madhatter85]

I think it's that people just want to refuse the idea that God is really that simple.

God loves us and gives us the opportunity to chose for ourselves. we are able to chose good or evil it's up to us.
God may intervene to the point where it will not affect our free agency.

 

[Magic Man]

Free will is the ability to chose to turn left or right. If there is no free will you do not get to make that choice. You clearly do not understand the nature of God by making such obscure comments regarding fee will.

Huh? So, you're saying that without your term "free will" I can only choose to turn left?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with your last sentence. This isn't hard. Free will is the ability to not follow God. That's the whole idea behind it. If you take away God, the term "free will" becomes meaningless.

I think it's that people just want to refuse the idea that God is really that simple.

How simple? You haven't shown him to be simple at all.

God loves us and gives us the opportunity to chose for ourselves. we are able to chose good or evil it's up to us.
God may intervene to the point where it will not affect our free agency.

What does this have to do with anything other than proving my point about free will? You say right here that we're able to choose good (God's way) or evil (not God's way) thanks to God. Therefore taking God out of the equation, as I do as an atheist, renders the whole free will idea meaningless.

Anyway, as to the whole intervention thing, you still haven't explained why God would need to intervene. Did he mess something up? Did he forget something? Did things not work out the way he expected them to? What changed between the time he set things up and the time he had to intervene to require his intervention?

 

[Autodidact]

I think it's that people just want to refuse the idea that God is really that simple.

God loves us and gives us the opportunity to chose for ourselves. we are able to chose good or evil it's up to us.
God may intervene to the point where it will not affect our free agency.

And how did you come to be the only person on earth who knows the true nature of God?

I think it's that people just want to refuse the idea that God really doesn't exist.

God doesn't exist, and gives us nothing, because he doesn't exist. God doesn't intervene, because he doesn't exist.

Does it bother you that I'm not citing any source for my assertions with which you disagree?

 

[madhatter85]

Huh? So, you're saying that without your term "free will" I can only choose to turn left?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with your last sentence. This isn't hard. Free will is the ability to not follow God. That's the whole idea behind it. If you take away God, the term "free will" becomes meaningless.



How simple? You haven't shown him to be simple at all.



What does this have to do with anything other than proving my point about free will? You say right here that we're able to choose good (God's way) or evil (not God's way) thanks to God. Therefore taking God out of the equation, as I do as an atheist, renders the whole free will idea meaningless.

Anyway, as to the whole intervention thing, you still haven't explained why God would need to intervene. Did he mess something up? Did he forget something? Did things not work out the way he expected them to? What changed between the time he set things up and the time he had to intervene to require his intervention?

you know i really wouldn't mind replying but we have derailed the point of this thread.
If you want to discuss further create a new thread

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So what are we supposed to be debating.....because I agree..we have drifted.