@ adrian009
I am not so sure about being grateful to God for being alive, as I did not ask to be born but I guess you could say it had to be the will of God or it would not have happened. I have long since forgiven my parents, mostly it was my mother I had to forgive, but I am not so sure about God. I do not understand all the suffering God allows, particularly suffering of animals who are innocent, and I do not think I will ever reconcile this in this life. I do not look forward to the afterlife , hoping it will be any better than this life and eternity is a long time to exist if it is no better. Hopefully I will make some spiritual progress before I cross over to the other side and I will have a better attitude.
Yes, I agree the Revelation of Christ is amazing. No, we would not be having this conversation if it weren't for Him, but He would not exist if it were not for those who prepared the way for Him. Just remember what Baha’u’llah warned about elevating any of the Manifestations of God over any other. Of course it is the approach that makes people blind, but because most Christians take the approach that Jesus is the Only Way so that makes them blind to any other Manifestation of God before or after Jesus.
I still do not think it is necessary to acquire a deep understanding of the religions of the past. Hopefully we can agree to disagree about this.
That is something a Baha’i can do if they want to but not everyone wants to or has the time. Why should Baha’is be the only ones who understand all religions whereas all the others only understand their own religion? I still have a deficit of knowledge of the Baha’i Faith and given the world situation that is a much higher priority to learn. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah has abrogated unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it. History is behind us, the old world order is crumbling, and the New World Order is rising in its stead.
“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
Thanks for the quotes about the importance of studying the Bible, but the context was people who wanted to study the Bible, and he was addressing people who are
interested in the Bible. Of course Abdu’l-Baha is not going to discourage people who are interested in studying the Bible, but I never considered knowing the Bible a requirement for being a Baha’i. Don’t we have enough requirements already?
According to Shoghi Effendi, here is the Baha’i position on Christianity and the requirement for Baha’is regarding Christianity and Islam, Jesus and Muhammad. I have no problem with any of this as it is reasonable.
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” ..........
Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muhammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.” The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110
Note that the quote says “unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of
both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of
both Muhammad and Jesus Christ. But people hardly ever talk about Muhammad, and if they do it is derogatory. I give you a lot of credit for starting the threads about Muhammad and Islam but it sure did not seem like either one is accepted by many people. Was the mission of Muhammad so much less important than the mission of Jesus?
I have always wondered about that quote from Shoghi Effendi. What about the divine origin of Judaism? Would there even be a Christianity if the Prophets in the OT had not come and prepared the way for Jesus and His mission?
I guess I am just tired of Christianity taking center stage. I understand that is the way it is in the Western world but as Baha’is we are not “Westerners;” we are world citizens.
Please note that 22% of the world population are Muslims and 33% are Christians, but by the year 2060 there will be more Muslims than Christians, and that trend will continue into the future. Don’t you think it is more important for Baha’is to understand Islam and the Qur’an? I for one am a lot more interested in the Qur’an than the Bible. Then again, I have always been a bit if a rebel.
When I became a Baha’i, I was under the impression that the Baha’i Faith was a new religion that stands alone and on its own merit. Sure, there was history leading up to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but the Qur’an is the most recent history, so why isn’t Abdu’l-Baha telling us to study the Qur’an? I admit it, I have a feeling of antagonism towards the Bible and Christianity because of all the harm they have done to so many people and because of the interactions I have had with Christians over the years.
Do we have a new Revelation from God or not? If we do, I do not understand why we have to live in the past. But I guess some people have free time so they have time to read history. I don’t have that luxury. I do not even have time to read the Baha’i Writings. Then again, all people have very different life circumstances.
Do you have any quotes from Baha’u’llah that say we should study the Bible? I do have a problem with considering what Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi or the UHJ say as equivalent to Baha’u’llah, because they are not infallible. Moreover, these are suggestions, not commandments.
Thanks for the quotes, but I am very familiar with all of those. However, I am not going along with the idea that Paul did not corrupt the Gospel of Christ just because it says that in the “authoritative” Baha’i Writings or because the UHJ said it. I have a mind and I plan to use it, not just follow blindly. All one has to do is read what George Townshend wrote to know that
the Church completely changed the gospel message, and it was because of Paul. They would not have been able to do what they did without what Paul wrote because they would not have a leg to stand on. This is confirmed by another author I am reading, Udo Schaefer, and he cites a lot of references. I plan to post a new thread on that as soon as I have time to type it up.
Who am I to argue with you? Obviously you know the Bible and I don’t. The HUGE problem is that the Bible can be interpreted to mean whatever you want it to mean, which means that there is no way anyone can ever really know what it means. However, I am not a blundering idiot. I can see what happened to Christianity and some of it happened because of Paul. Anyone who looks at this
objectively can see it. I have learned a lot from atheists who were formerly Christians who have no dog in this fight.
Let me ask you a few simple questions. Did Jesus say He rose bodily from the grave or did someone else write that? Did Jesus say He ascended into the sky bodily and will return as He ascended or did someone else write that? That is in Acts 1:10-11, courtesy of Paul, and I know it by heart because I have discussed it with Christians for years, over and over again. Those two verses have led Christians astray for thousands of years and made it absolutely impossible for them to EVER recognize Baha’u’llah as the return of Christ. Did Jesus ever say that we had original sin and that He sacrificed Himself so we could be saved from original sin? Did Jesus ever say that He (the same Jesus) would return to earth and rule as a King? Did Jesus ever say that bodies would rise from graves when Jesus returns? Much of this comes from the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve and that was put together with what Paul wrote in Cor. and Thess. These false doctrines could not have been fabricated just by using the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
I know that quote from the Kitab-i-Iqan by heart. Note that it says --
until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation -- which means that Christians should have recognized Muhammad rather than clinging to the Bible.
I know your personal take is that you like to know about all the religions, and that is fine if that interests you and you have the time. I am sure you already know what there is to know about the Baha’i Faith, but I only started serious learning about it six years ago. I consider it better use of my time to learn as I can about the Baha’i Faith. As I told you before, I do not have a burning interest in religion, I never have, but I do believe that Baha’u’llah is the Manifestation of God for this age and that this is the Day of God, so that is not something I am going to brush aside.
I know enough about Christianity to be able to talk to Christians about it and I learn more every time I talk to new people. I know enough to talk to Christians and explain what the Baha’i Faith is and how Baha’u’llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies. I do not need to know their scriptures in order to teach the Faith.
I am not going to learn Christianity or the Bible in depth. That is much too big of a feat for me to accomplish at this stage of my life. I have so many problems in my life, so many real world things that I have to deal with day in day out, and I feel the time I do have is better spent posting on the forums. Besides that, it would not matter how much I know about the Bible or Christianity because I do not want to debate the Bible or Christianity with Christians. I have no interest in convincing Christians of anything. Christians who are true seekers are the only ones who will ever become Baha’is. The rest of them will cling to their traditions until the day they die. That is their choice since we all have free will.
