Baha'is and a new form of discrimination?

[Vinayaka]

Hi......... Bahai just doesn't want to irritate Israel in any way. If they were to openly try to convert Jewish folks in Israel then they would get shut down pretty quickly, and they have planted their roots there.

But, yes, in a Bahai World non-Bahais would have no voice, vote or full status. In fact there is no reason why a future UHJ in a majority Bahai World might not enact Babi Law that Bahais could turn non-Bahais out of their homes for Bahai use..... it's there in the writings after all.

This makes the most sense of all explanations. It's the overt proselytising. If another country enforced anti-proselytizing laws against the Baha'i (not just Baha'i but everyone else) they'd seek a better relationship with those governments too.

 

[Vinayaka]

Very hypocritical and another example of the double standard Baha'is practice. Israel tells Baha'is they are not allowed to convert Israelis, Baha'is happily oblige. Iran tells them the same thing, they spit in the face of the Iranian government, claim that their right to freedom of religions has been infringed, and make a great deal of fuss about the whole issue including but not limited to condemning Iran and throwing whatever they have at them at every chance they get.

I think Israel has a lot more clout, with certain backers that someone might be well advised to stay clear of.

 

[YmirGF]

I think Israel has a lot more clout, with certain backers that someone might be well advised to stay clear of.

GOD?

 

[Vinayaka]

GOD?

Could be, but no, just some entity that thinks it's God. I'm being diplomatic, in parallel to this case.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Very hypocritical and another example of the double standard Baha'is practice. Israel tells Baha'is they are not allowed to convert Israelis, Baha'is happily oblige. Iran tells them the same thing, they spit in the face of the Iranian government, claim that their right to freedom of religions has been infringed, and make a great deal of fuss about the whole issue including but not limited to condemning Iran and throwing whatever they have at them at every chance they get.

That's not true. The Baha'is are required to faithfully obey the government and laws of the country where they reside. The only exception is recanting our faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'is are required to faithfully obey the government and laws of the country where they reside.

As are all citizens of all countries, as far as I know. Nothing unique about this.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As are all citizens of all countries, as far as I know. Nothing unique about this.

Of course, but my post was in response to another suggesting Baha'is in Iran 'spit in the face' of the Iranian government. That is not true despite heavy persecution of the Baha'is since the Iranian revolution in 1979.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm curious why they don't "teach the faith" in Israel.

Baha'is seem to disagree that Israel didn't exist back then:

"in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá'u'lláh, Bahá'ís do not teach the Faith in Israel."

The problem is with the religious conservatives in Israel. They do not want people proselytizing Jews to Christianity/Islam/Baha'i, etc.. The headquarters of the Baha'i World is in Haifa, Israel and the Bahai's are very concerned about offending their host country. Baha'is hope this will change in time.

To call this discrimination BY Bahai's is simply misinformation.

 

[George-ananda]

This makes the most sense of all explanations. It's the overt proselytising. If another country enforced anti-proselytizing laws against the Baha'i (not just Baha'i but everyone else) they'd seek a better relationship with those governments too.

AS @oldbadger was alluding to, the problem is with the religious conservatives in Israel that do not want proselytizing of Jews to any religion period. Bahai's are just following Israeli law in Israel.

 

[Vinayaka]

AS @oldbadger was alluding to, the problem is with the religious conservatives in Israel that do not want proselytizing of Jews to any religion period. Bahai's are just following Israeli law in Israel.

Tons of people of all faiths ... liberals, conservatives, and non-faiths dislike or abhor proselytizing. It's certainly not just the conservatives of Israel.

 

[George-ananda]

Tons of people of all faiths ... liberals, conservatives, and non-faiths dislike or abhor proselytizing. It's certainly not just the conservatives of Israel.

True, but the Bahai's would call what they do just teaching about their faith and not proselytizing.

 

[Vinayaka]

True, but the Bahai's would call what they do just teaching about their faith and not proselytizing.

Oh yeah I know that way too well. Missionaries are called pioneers. The whole thing is meant to deceive, but frankly, nobody whatsoever is fooled. People just aren't that dumb. It is what it is. "My religion is better than yours, and here's why." There is a ton of pressure to 'share'. We Hindus outnumber Baha'i by a thousand to one, yet on these very forums, we're outnumbered. It's a joke.

 

[YmirGF]

To call this discrimination BY Bahai's is simply misinformation.

I never implied that it was.

We Hindus outnumber Baha'i by a thousand to one, yet on these very forums, we're outnumbered. It's a joke.

It's closer to 15,000 to 1, but hey...

 

[oldbadger]

AS @oldbadger was alluding to, the problem is with the religious conservatives in Israel that do not want proselytizing of Jews to any religion period. Bahai's are just following Israeli law in Israel.

Yep. It's fair enough.
I certainly wouldn't stand on a street corner mouthing off about 'Come over to Deism!' .

They have too much invested in Israel to make a single mistake.

 

[Jedster]

The relationship between the Baha'is and the Israeli government is very good. One of the issues for the Israelis is another proselytizing religion.

Israel, Teaching the Faith in

The mix of politics and religion is so volatile the Baha'is are wise to steer clear of it completely.

Baha'is shouldn't be proselytizing anyhow. On this forum I personally avoid discussing certain aspects of the Baha'i Faith with the Israeli Jews here.

What would happen if I started proselytizing to Israeli Jews about the Baha'i faith? There is no Baha'i authority monitoring my activities but it is out of respect for the Universal House of Justice that I don't overstep that boundary.

Hi @adrian009
Is not also so, that Bahais can only visit Israel for periods of service in the main centre?


ETA BTW, I am also fairly certain that the LDS have a similar arrangement when they opened their Brigham-Young university in Jerusalem.

regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi @adrian009
Is not also so, that Bahais can only visit Israel for periods of service in the main centre?


ETA BTW, I am also fairly certain that the LDS have a similar arrangement when they opened their Brigham-Young university in Jerusalem.

regards

Hi @Jedster,

I understand the matter of the LDS Mormons building their campus in Israel was approved with a formal agreement they would not carry out their missionary work or teaching.

The Baha'is have several hundred staff based in Haifa/Akka. None of them are considered permanent residents. It is also a place where thousands of Baha'is visit each year on pilgrimmage. The arrangement allows us to have very good relationships with the Israeli government and Baha'is are free to enter and leave Israel with ease.

 

[stvdv]

According to the first verse of the Most Holy Baha'i book, if you do not Believe in Baha'u'llah and do not follow his orders you are astray even if you perform every righteous of deed:
"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Aqdas, verse 1)
So basically you are never considered a guided person unless you become a Baha'i. However the citizens of Israel how no right to become Baha'is unless they get out of the country and never return back:

I read/interpret this verse totally different.

This verse just says "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants". I see no problem in this verse IF you are not a servant of God

Spiritual life is a personal journey. Problems start when people make their personal choice into a dogma for others. Humans do this, not GOD

 

[stvdv]

"The Universal House of Justice has received your email message dated 29 June 1995 and we have been asked to respond.

You have asked how the policy of not teaching Israelis applies in the situation in which you have contact with an Israeli via an "interactive relay chat" (IRC) connection. The House of Justice has not asked the friends to avoid contact with Israelis. When you discover that a person you are in contact with via IRC is an Israeli, you should feel free to maintain friendly contact, but you should not teach the Faith to him. If he has already developed a personal interest in the Faith and seeks more information, you should refer him to the Offices of the Bahá'í World Centre in Haifa.

For your information, the people in Israel have access to factual information about the Faith, its history and general principles. Books concerning the Faith are available in libraries throughout Israel, and Israelis are welcome to visit the Shrines and the surrounding gardens. However, in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá'u'lláh, Bahá'ís do not teach the Faith in Israel. Likewise, the Faith is not taught to Israelis abroad if they intend to return to Israel. When Israelis ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest.

1. 
   With loving Bahá'í greetings,
   Department of the Secretaria" (Israel, Teaching the Faith in)

So basically, Baha'u'llah and Baha'is seem to be discriminating against Israelis in the most important of all matters (eternal salvation and guidance) and an Israeli can never be guided and is always astray as long as he refuses to leave Israel and convert to Baha'ism, vowing never ever to return to his homeland for permanent residence.

Again I read these words so very different than you do. But I must say, my goal is to see "unity in diversity". So I look for the good in others

This answer clearly instructs NOT to proselytize Bahai faith to Israelis. Wonderful. Not even stimulating further interest. Even better; feels like perfectly respectful towards Israelis. They already have a religion. Proselytzing would be bagatellizing and belittling their faith and is "not done".

So these words are exactly the opposite of what you read into them. These words are exactly what I believe Bahaullah original was teaching. I am not a Bahai, but my feeling of Bahaullah is that He does not want people to proselytize. Meaning "Respect other's their belief".

 

[Niblo]

.....In Islam this is the doctrine of intention/neyyat, which says that each good work (prayer, but also charity) has religious value only if it is preceded by the correct intention. One has to form the intention, I am going to pray the salat as Muhammad and Islam has taught me, and then begin the prayer, in order to have obeyed the law of praying. (the salat is the 5-times per day obligatory prayer).

Correct.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

No one said anything about enrolling.

As for the rest of your statements, Baha'u'llah clearly disagrees with you:

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." (Aqdas, verse 1)
​

It's clear that you have to first recognize Baha'u'llah, then do whatever he says. And these two duties are not separable or else you are considered astray even if you perform every righteous deed.

The thing about religion is, everyone "gets" it at their own level, according to their capacity. For me, the first paragraph of the Aqdas that you have quoted here is about the religious value of "works" (the ones the Aqdas goes on to prescribe, such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimmage, inheritance, marriage, divorce, tithes (huququllah) and so forth). It says that "good works" (such as these) do not have religious merit unless they are based on "recognition" (`erfaan). `Erfaan is the consciousness born of a mystic encounter with the divine, it is sometimes translated as gnostic knowing.

The context is that Bahais from Islamic backgrounds have been pestering Baha'u'llah for some years for a book of laws they can follow, to replace the Islamic Shariah code and the Bab's Bayanic law. Eventually Baha'u'llah agrees, and compiles and composes the Aqdas (some of its contents already existed in other works), but he begins by saying (my paraphrase) you can pray and fast all you like, but if you don't have `erfaan in your heart it's not worth a bean, as a way of pleasing the Beloved.

Christianity has the same concept, in the form of the much-disputed relationship between faith and works. The Bahai approach is like the Catholic one: first faith, then good works. In Islam this is the doctrine of intention/neyyat, which says that each good work (prayer, but also charity) has religious value only if it is preceded by the correct intention. One has to form the intention, I am going to pray the salat as Muhammad and Islam has taught me, and then begin the prayer, in order to have obeyed the law of praying. (the salat is the 5-times per day obligatory prayer).

Naturally you can understand that first paragraph in other ways, as you wish. My reading is shaped by reading the Arabic, and knowing the Islamic context of the terms Baha'u'llah uses there.