Audie
Veteran Member
" oneness includes everyone"
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Baha'i and Messengers
- Thread starter ppp
- Start date
" oneness includes everyone"
Audie
Veteran Member
You dont really believe in cause and effect, do you.
Not reliable. This involves faith.
There might be facts ABOUT Baha'u'llah, but this doesn't suggest what he says and claims is factual. This is what we dispute, that all this God talk and claims, and rules, has any factual basis. Theists are notorious for not presenting facts to bolster beliefs and claims.
You say facts are important but then don't offer sufficient facts to present an objective and rational conclusion for what you believe.
You admit there are no facts for a God, but then you say you rely on what Messengers claim. What makes them correct? What facts are there that these people are authentic and we can just take their word for it?
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Foolish and dishonest in your eyes. You are very welcome to your opinion.
What facts demonstrate there is an actual "spiritual sense"?
Could it be that this is just a mental state where reason is suspended so that non-factual concepts can be manifested in the imagination and an experience be created by the self? This is called illusion or fantasy.
If you insist it is real experiences, then what facts and data can you show us you are correct, and not just convincing yourself a fantasy is real?
IOW, focus on facts and actual sensory data and you will have credible understanding about what is true. But if you reflect on religious concepts that have no factual basis you can create an illusion of mind that seems real, and offers no test in reality.
Feel free to present facts and a coherent argument as to why my suggestion is false.
Everything we know has a cause external to itself. Nothing brings itself into existence
because to cause itself means it has to exist before it exists. This is logically impossible.
Audie
Veteran Member
Thats fine, i just pointed out that you dont
show any evidence that you actually believe
in cause and effect - and you again sidestepped my point.
Audie
Veteran Member
Suit yourself but the ancient wisdom
applies to all.
I didnt of course specify you, when i spoke of it
being foolish / dishonest to pretend to know things,
and the beginning of wisdom being to know what one
does not know.
So you think thats just my opinion, applies to nobody?
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Billions of people all over the world believe in God. This proves man has a spiritual nature with spiritual senses that are reflected in a belief and lifestyle modelled on that belief. The possibility scientifically that all these billions are deluded is untenable. Added to this, they come from many different religions but believe in God.
Your argument is saying that many billions of people are experiencing illusions created by their own mind and is nothing but a fantasy and mental state instead of realising that man is a spiritual being innately because he was created to know and worship God which these people claim.
If one does not pray, meditate and reflect on the Words of God regularly how can he expect his spiritual senses to be healthy. From lack of use our spiritual senses deteriorate to the point we think we do not possess them. But to those who regularly study the Word of God , reflect on it and act virtuously their spiritual senses are fully functional.
What are the spiritual senses.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’í World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá (‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s Section Only), Pages 317-318
But while one is full of self or ego, the spiritual senses will be clouded and one will not be able to perceive the truth even if it be right in front of him.
There are certain requirements to unlock truth that must be fulfilled before one can see God. They are mentioned by Baha’u’llah in His Book of Certitude.
The Originator of the cause and effect process is God. Cause and effect is but a process that had to be initiated by Someone because as stated it could not initiate itself if it wasn’t in existence to do so!
Audie
Veteran Member
So you say.
But face it- no law or theory survives even one exception.
" special plesding" is hardly worthy of even a hand wave.
Lets no have you claiming " logic" built of such.
And of course your statement of " fact" that
the universe had a beginning is simply assuming then pretending it is a fact.
Not impressive.
Nor is the claim contained in it, that you know
more than any astrophysicist on earth.
Also not impressive.
You dont know that much. See " beginning of wisdom".
Nobody on earth knows whether the universe had a beginning.
Nothing is gained for your faith by pretending otherwise.
Audie
Veteran Member
Billions of people are superstitious, which
BTW superstition and religion have a very broad overlap.
It demonstrates something about the human
mind. It does not prove astrology or any other superstition.
Your " proves spiritual" is nonsense as you cannot even define " spiritual" . Never mind
the unique standard for " proof ",
On the ego question, its mighty egotistical
to claim to know more than any astrophysicist.
The universe has neither beginning nor end. It always existed. By beginning and end I’m referring to bodies such as stars and planets which are born and die not the entire existence which always existed. The universe may have had a beginning but other universes always existed.
The world of creation has had no beginning and will have no end (Abdul-Baha)
Thats untenable. The majority of the world’s people are intelligent people. And they believe in God and prayer etc.
Audie
Veteran Member
You really are attempting to deny that billions
of people are superstitious, and that superstition / religion overlap?
And using the old " popularity"
(argumentum populum) fallacy as PROOF
of something?
Talk about untenable.
Evolution is a fact of life. God always existed. Cause and effect applies to that which is created but not God Who is eternal.
Audie
Veteran Member
Special pleading again.
There is zero logic in fallacies.
And
Nobody knows if the universe had a beginning or a cause.
Are you going to keep pretending to
be using logic and know more than any
astrophysicist on earth?
You again forgot to say if you believe in
prophecy.
The immortal body is the Spirit we all have.
Jesus said we need to be born again from the human flesh by the spirit of faith to embrace the Holy Spirit that is Christ.
All people when this life ends live on in the spirit world. Heaven is nearness to God, hell is remoteness. So we can partake of heaven in this life and death does not overtake, but we can be dead here and dead in the spiritual world as well.
So God's Kingdom on earth is not some fancy, it is an age when the majority of humanity embraces the Love of One God in service to each other.
Regards Tony
There was no widening of the teachings of Baha'u'llah compared to Jesus so the teaching is not better in any way.
Maybe it is worse. It is easy to love humanity in a vague airy fairy way, but harder to love each person individually.
There is no true love unless that love is the same for all humanity.
Regards Tony
The core virtues are never outdated.
Abdul'baha always offered thay no one has to change their religion, they just have to practice the core values taught in all God given Faiths, as that is where we will find our unity.
That could be the issue, if one does not believe God gave us those core values. That also does no matter if one also wishes to practice those values for the good of all humanity.
Regards Tony