Baha'i and Messengers

[loverofhumanity]

Yes that's the standard overall statement, and it seems well, until you look at the details in the words, where this platitude gets contradicted repeatedly. Who is the 'manifestation' that represents atheists?

Our common humanity is what represents us all nothing else.

 

[KWED]

Neither we nor the universe created itself.

Was that supposed to be a response to my post, because it didn't address anything I said. It is a straw man of the worst kind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How can they, when you say that all religions other than yours are out-dated?

The spiritual laws are eternal and never become outdated. But things like stoning, crucifixion and cutting off of hands, social laws, do become outdated and need to be replaced from age to age with more humanitarian laws.

 

[KWED]

The spiritual senses can only be acquired through prayer, meditation, reflection and reading the Word of God. These powers can recognise God and His Prophets.

If one reflects one earthly things he will become informed of them and if he reflects on the Word of God he will come to know God.

More circular logic.
You: You can only understand god through spiritual senses.
Me: How do you acquire these spiritual senses?
You: By understanding god.

This forum is the first time I've really encountered Baha'i apologists, and WADR, they are by far the worst for this kind of thing. Almost every argument rests on one fallacy or another. And the complete lack of self awareness is somewhat unnerving. It's almost as if there is no recollection of the last argument made. I have never come across so many contradictory claims made with such complete lack of understanding of the implications.

 

[ppp]

The spiritual laws are eternal and never become outdated. But things like stoning, crucifixion and cutting off of hands, social laws, do become outdated and need to be replaced from age to age with more humanitarian laws.

So the Baha'i doctrines will have to be replaced eventually with more humanitarian laws?

 

[KWED]

God knowing what will happen in the future is not the same as God predetermining those events.

Correct.
We are talking about the Baha'i god's predestination of events so they are fixed and unchangeable (as expressly explained by that god's messenger).

Infallible omniscience has much the same end result, but that is a different discussion.

 

[KWED]

I think the way it works is that only those who do not believe in God are the ones who pretend there is no evidence for God.

There is no "pretence".
There is no evidence for god.
It is religionists who pretend that the human body or the sea or your feelings are "evidence".

 

[loverofhumanity]

Was that supposed to be a response to my post, because it didn't address anything I said. It is a straw man of the worst kind.

Lets look at the intricacy and complexity of the human body. It has been studied and researched for thousands of years and yet the greatest minds still have not been able to fully understand it not to mention the mind and brain.

I do not believe that something so highly organised and meticulously automatically functioning could exist without the assistance of a Higher Intelligence. Then there’s the universe and nature etc.

You are entitled to your own views but to me, every atom in existence is proof of a God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

More circular logic.
You: You can only understand god through spiritual senses.
Me: How do you acquire these spiritual senses?
You: By understanding god.

This forum is the first time I've really encountered Baha'i apologists, and WADR, they are by far the worst for this kind of thing. Almost every argument rests on one fallacy or another. And the complete lack of self awareness is somewhat unnerving. It's almost as if there is no recollection of the last argument made. I have never come across so many contradictory claims made with such complete lack of understanding of the implications.

To you it’s fallacy to me it’s truth. Thats your understanding and I respect that. Just out of interest, what Baha’i books have you read? I think to judge another’s belief one should be very well versed in it.

 

[KWED]

So it magically appeared out of nowhere

What do you think "divine creation" is, exactly?
Also, you should be aware by now that science does not claim that this universe appeared, as is, out of nothing.

with an inbuilt do it itself kit to generate nature, the human body and a universe with laws.

That is very simplistic, but yes. From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe either contained, or had the ability to produce, materials and processes that could form stars, planets, life, etc.
At that point there was no guarantee that it would happen, but it could.

 

[KWED]

Lets look at the intricacy and complexity of the human body. It has been studied and researched for thousands of years and yet the greatest minds still have not been able to fully understand it not to mention the mind and brain.

Apart from being a mere "god of the gaps" argument, the human body is very well understood. Are you not familiar with modern medicine?

I do not believe that something so highly organised and meticulously automatically functioning could exist without the assistance of a Higher Intelligence.

That is just the argument from personal incredulity. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean on one else does.
Why do you think that all those expert doctors and surgeons and consultants don't share your views about this? What is it that you know that they don't?
Also, you should be aware that the human body is pretty badly "designed" and constructed. It's why we need all those doctors and surgeons and researchers, etc. If there was a "designer", it certainly isn't a "higher intelligence".

Then there’s the universe and nature etc.

More personal incredulity and god of the gaps. We understand huge amounts about nature and the universe. And nothing that we understand requires a god.

You are entitled to your own views but to me, every atom in existence is proof of a God.

So you accept opinion as evidence, but not repeatable scientific experimental data.
Interesting.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you think "divine creation" is, exactly?
Also, you should be aware by now that science does not claim that this universe appeared, as is, out of nothing.

That is very simplistic, but yes. From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe either contained, or had the ability to produce, materials and processes that could form stars, planets, life, etc.
At that point there was no guarantee that it would happen, but it could.

I agree that scientifically it might have been a Big Bang but I interpret that as God commanding ‘Be’ and ‘It Is’. Please be patient with this quote but it portrays what I believe so you can understand where I’m coming from. Because I know Who Baha’u’llah is, I know this is true beyond any doubt.

It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages. This, in truth, is a matter simple of accomplishment. Such have been the evidences of My power from the beginning that hath no beginning until the end that hath no end. My creatures, however, have been oblivious of My power, have repudiated My sovereignty, and contended with Mine own Self, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Bahá’u’lláh,

 

[KWED]

To you it’s fallacy to me it’s truth. Thats your understanding and I respect that. Just out of interest, what Baha’i books have you read? I think to judge another’s belief one should be very well versed in it.

I haven't read any. I have not made any claims about the belief as a whole or the nature of its scriptures (although I might, depending on how much there is). I am just responding to the arguments of Baha'i apologists that have been made here.

 

[Audie]

We believe in cause and effect and that the existence could not have brought itself into existence.

You sidestepped EVERYTHING in my post.
Some reason for that? How about trying on at least one point?

If you "believe in cause and effect" it is rather selective.

An uncaused cause for example. You know,
a god. Believe in cause and effect?
Evidence shows not.
How about evolution? You reject that cause and effect?

Prophecy requires reversing cause and effect.
Do you believe in prophecy?

 

[Audie]

Was Bahaullah sceptical? Did he accept that the god he thought he was communicating with might just be a delusion?
Do You?

He may have been quite satisfied with making the whole thing up.
Thats the usual for " prophets".

 

[KWED]

I agree that scientifically it might have been a Big Bang but I interpret that as God commanding ‘Be’ and ‘It Is’.

So no need for god in order to get the human body, stars, oceans, etc. Natural processes and the stuff of the universe can accomplish that any themselves.

It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages. This, in truth, is a matter simple of accomplishment. Such have been the evidences of My power from the beginning that hath no beginning until the end that hath no end. My creatures, however, have been oblivious of My power, have repudiated My sovereignty, and contended with Mine own Self, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

That's just meaningless philosophical navel gazing. A word salad. Anyone could have said something similar any time in the last few millennia.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I haven't read any. I have not made any claims about the belief as a whole or the nature of its scriptures (although I might, depending on how much there is). I am just responding to the arguments of Baha'i apologists that have been made here.

Well you should because Baha’u’llah said this.

Who is the man amongst you that can rival Me in vision or insight? Where is he to be found that dareth to claim to be My equal in utterance or wisdom? No, by My Lord, the All-Merciful! All on the earth shall pass away; and this is the face of your Lord, the Almighty, the Well-Beloved.

 

[Audie]

I agree that scientifically it might have been a Big Bang but I interpret that as God commanding ‘Be’ and ‘It Is’. Please be patient with this quote but it portrays what I believe so you can understand where I’m coming from. Because I know Who Baha’u’llah is, I know this is true beyond any doubt.

It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages. This, in truth, is a matter simple of accomplishment. Such have been the evidences of My power from the beginning that hath no beginning until the end that hath no end. My creatures, however, have been oblivious of My power, have repudiated My sovereignty, and contended with Mine own Self, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Bahá’u’lláh,

The beginning if wisdom is knowing what you
know.
Its fine to believe in most anythingbthatvsuits the fancy but claiming to KNOW is something else.
Its dishonest at worst, foolish at best.

 

[Audie]

So no need for god in order to get the human body, stars, oceans, etc. Natural processes and the stuff of the universe can accomplish that any themselves.

That's just meaningless philosophical navel gazing. A word salad. Anyone could have said something similar any time in the last few millennia.

All that salad could have been condensed to three words.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So no need for god in order to get the human body, stars, oceans, etc. Natural processes and the stuff of the universe can accomplish that any themselves.

That's just meaningless philosophical navel gazing. A word salad. Anyone could have said something similar any time in the last few millennia.

It’s how I believe it all happened. God the scientist makes a whole lot of sense to me.