Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

No bearing? You are possibly believing a false fulfillment of a major prophecy. Can't proof it.

Major prophecy? No, it is not major at all. It is only major to you.
False fulfillment? 2300 years is the date. There are many ways to get to it depending upon how you interpret the prophecy and the Bible.

Anyone can try to use the Bible to try to prove whatever they want to believe, depending upon how they interpret the Bible, and as such the Bible is utterly worthless in proving anything.

I don't need the Bible to know who Baha'u'llah was.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

 

[ratiocinator]

God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

Baha'u'llah is not god. You're justification is entirely circular. You claimed that Baha'u'llah got his agenda from god, and when asked how you know this, you claim 'god' and justify it only by quoting Baha'u'llah. It's classic theist question begging; "I know about god because of what the god-inspired scripture says, and I know scripture is true because it says it is and it's inspired by god".

 

[Trailblazer]

Your religion has connected itself to all the other major religions by saying that it has been a progression... that your guy has fulfilled all the prophecies of those older religions...

Sorry but no. The Baha'i Faith is a new independent religion and it is not 'connected' to the religions of the past just because we believe in progressive revelation. And just because Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that does not connect it to the older religions. This is a New Day of God, unlike any or the other days that came before it.

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[Trailblazer]

I think there were a couple of places where it says Jesus will come back. But would it really matter? But where does it say that the "Lamb", in the last days, switches from being Jesus to Baha'u'llah? Plus, if Baha'u'llah is the "Glory" of God, how would he also be the "Lamb"? And, why do some Muslims believe that Jesus will return?

No, there are no places where Jesus says He will come back, only places where He says He won't.
But people can make the Bible say whatever they want to believe.

Why does it matter so much to you who the Lamb of God is? These are just titles that people gave to Jesus. Jesus was called he Lamb and Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God. Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. Jesus ain't coming back. That is all that really matters.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah is not god. You're justification is entirely circular. You claimed that Baha'u'llah got his agenda from god, and when asked how you know this, you claim 'god' and justify it only by quoting Baha'u'llah. It's classic theist question begging; "I know about god because of what the god-inspired scripture says, and I know scripture is true because it says it is and it's inspired by god".

There is nothing circular about it because I never said that "I know about God because of what the God-inspired scripture says." I know that the God-inspired scripture is the Word of God because of the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. I also know that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because God enabled me to recognize Baha'u'llah, as noted below.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
I suggest that you understand the the context of this conversation before making any assumptions.

samtonga43 said: And the B.Man got this agenda from.....?

Trailblazer said: God.

samtonga43 said: And you know this how?

Trailblazer said: God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause.
(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

*** The reason I said God is because it was God who enabled me to recognize Baha'u'llah who was God's Representative on earth.

 

[ratiocinator]

I know that the God-inspired scripture is the Word of God because of the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

What evidence?

** The reason I said God is because it was God who enabled me to recognize Baha'u'llah who was God's Representative on earth.

But what you actually presented was using Baha'u'llah to justify that Baha'u'llah's agenda was from god, which is circular.

How do you know that it was god that 'enabled' you to 'recognise' that Baha'u'llah was god's representative? How do you distinguish that from blind faith because you just wanted to believe it, or made a simple mistake, or misinterpreted a feeling, or anything else. Where is the first hint of any actual evidence?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think there were a couple of places where it says Jesus will come back. But would it really matter? But where does it say that the "Lamb", in the last days, switches from being Jesus to Baha'u'llah? Plus, if Baha'u'llah is the "Glory" of God, how would he also be the "Lamb"? And, why do some Muslims believe that Jesus will return?

It has been offered that if you look at the life of Jesus and the Bab, then you can see there would be no way of seperating them as being the Lamb given in prophecy. All that Jesus faced, so did the Bab, but for twice the time. From declaration to death Jesus faced 3 years of persecution and the Bab 6 years.

The execution of Jesus and the Bab both tell us in different ways, that you can no Kill the Spirit that God has given to humanity. Which is also what the Quran has offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

What evidence?

The claims of Baha'u'llah and the evidence that supports the claims are delineated in the following post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

But what you actually presented was using Baha'u'llah to justify that Baha'u'llah's agenda was from god, which is circular.

No, what I posted was not a scripture of Baha'u'llah, it was a Baha'u'llah quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, which is a history of the early days of the Bahai Faith.

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

How do you know that it was god that 'enabled' you to 'recognise' that Baha'u'llah was god's representative? How do you distinguish that from blind faith because you just wanted to believe it, or made a simple mistake, or misinterpreted a feeling, or anything else. Where is the first hint of any actual evidence?

I know because of the evidence. It is because I was able to recognize the evidence as evidence that I know everything I know, including what Baha'u'llah said, that it was God who enabled me to recognize the evidence.

Once one knows then one believes everything that was revealed by Baha'u'llah and His appointed interpreters. It is a package deal that Baha'is accept by virtue of Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, for no reason, Baha'is start the counting of the days, that get turned into years, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. Where do Baha'i get that from? How do Baha'is justify doing that? And why would they do that? Because they can make it end on the year The Bab declared himself in 1844. For Baha'is, a great year to end it. But it was not a good year to start counting from.

In the end It matters not where the Baha'i got that from, as we have provided evidence that Christians had already come up with this date on many occasions.

I give the proof again CG and I can say I am sad that you still choose this line of argument in full knowledge of this.

Here it is in detail, I will link to a picture in the explanation given by Biblical Scholars.

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

File:2300days.jpg - Wikipedia

File:Ezrachonology.jpg - Wikipedia

File:TwentySevenAD.jpg - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The OP is about convincing atheists with evidence, and you went off topic to talk about me. Then you blame me for not staying on topic? What display of dishonesty.

No, you were the one who got off topic and started talking about me and launched personal insults, as usual. All I ever do is try to defend myself from the personal insults. It is all in the posts for anyone who cares to know the truth, although I doubt anyone here cares about these antics.

 

[night912]

No, you were the one who got off topic and started talking about me and launched personal insults, as usual. All I ever do is try to defend myself from the personal insults. It is all in the posts for anyone who cares to know the truth, although I doubt anyone here cares about these antics.

And here you are again after saying that you are done with talking to me. You're such an honest person.

 

[samtonga43]

God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

So you say it was God because MrB said it was God?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you say it was God because MrB said it was God?

Yes, but FIRST I had to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Everything hinges on that one claim because if He was a Messenger of God, everything He revealed was from God.

 

[samtonga43]

No, you were the one who got off topic and started talking about me and launched personal insults, as usual. All I ever do is try to defend myself from the personal insults. It is all in the posts for anyone who cares to know the truth, although I doubt anyone here cares about these antics.

You won't want to know what I think, Tb, but I am going say it anyway, and hope that you will think about it.

Why are you doing this? You are becoming more and more irrational as time goes by. You say that all you ever do is try to defend yourself against personal insults.

Can't you see that you are placing yourself in the firing line? Why not do something else? You are certainly doing your faith no favours whatsoever.

 

[samtonga43]

Yes, but FIRST I had to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Everything hinges on that one claim because if He was a Messenger of God, everything He revealed was from God.

"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel"

Colossians 2:9: “For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.”

John 14:7: “If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel"

Colossians 2:9: “For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.”

John 14:7: “If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

This has been explained in great detail now, no need to have our own ideas about it anymore.

Jesus was indeed the 'Self of God' amongst us, the embodiment of the Holy Spirit, the giver from God of life, virtues and law.

This is applicable to all of God's chosen Messengers and it is why Christ is the first Messenger and will be the last Messenger, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, but that is not the property of flesh, the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is Light and Life.

So if we see Christ in the Son Jesus, we can see that same Christ in the Father Baha'u'llah, we finally get to see the full splendour of Christ as the Glory of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You won't want to know what I think, Tb, but I am going say it anyway, and hope that you will think about it.

Why are you doing this? You are becoming more and more irrational as time goes by. You say that all you ever do is try to defend yourself against personal insults.

Calling me irrational is a personal insult. I suggest that you ask yourself why you need to talk about me instead of sticking to the subject matter of this thread.

I was talking to @night912 when I said that all I ever do with him is try to defend myself against his personal insults. I was not talking about 'other people' because nobody on this forum hurls personal insults at me except him and you. Do you want to get reported for hurling personal insults at me?

Can't you see that you are placing yourself in the firing line? Why not do something else? You are certainly doing your faith no favours whatsoever.

I suggest you ask yourself why what I say bothers you so much, if it does. If it bothers you, why don't you just ignore what I post and stop posting to me? If it doesn't bother you why don't you get off my back?

I am not trying to do my faith any favors. I just respond to posts that are posted to me.

If I am on the firing line why is it that only you and @night912 are firing at me? I have no problems with anyone else on this forum. Logic tells why.

I post to Christians all the time and I see no Christians on this forum hurling personal insults at me yet you look for every opportunity to do so.

I suggest to ask yourself if judging other people is doing any favors for your faith, given what Jesus said about judging other people.

Matthew 7:1-3 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[samtonga43]

Calling me irrational is a personal insult. I suggest that you ask yourself why you need to talk about me instead of sticking to the subject matter of this thread.

I was talking to @night912 when I said that all I ever do with him is try to defend myself against his personal insults. I was not talking about 'other people' because nobody on this forum hurls personal insults at me except him and you. Do you want to get reported for hurling personal insults at me?

I suggest you ask yourself why what I say bothers you so much, if it does. If it bothers you, why don't you just ignore what I post and stop posting to me? If it doesn't bother you why don't you get off my back?

The following may help you to a better understanding of
The SURPRISING Meaning Of Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged

I am not trying to do my faith any favors. I just respond to posts that are posted to me.

If I am on the firing line why is it that only you and @night912 are firing at me? I have no problems with anyone else on this forum. Logic tells why.

I post to Christians all the time and I see no Christians on this forum hurling personal insults at me yet you look for every opportunity to do so.

I suggest to ask yourself if judging other people is doing any favors for your faith, given what Jesus said about judging other people.

Matthew 7:1-3 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I apologize for calling you irrational, Tb. I ought to have said that your posts are sometimes irrational, and I can see them becoming more so.

Myself and night are not the only posters here who have called your posts irrational. However, that is not to say that YOU are irrational, and I apologize again for saying that you are.

The following may help you to understand Matthew 7 on 'judging'.
The SURPRISING Meaning Of Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged

 

[CG Didymus]

A real God has to exist in order to have a real Messenger of God who represents Him.

Put another way, if a real Messenger of God exists that means a real God has to exist.

So do we have a real messenger? There should be things we look at to check that, right? So... how about by what he and the Baha'i Faith says? So I ask...

The Baha'i Faith says Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were also manifestations. Were they? Did they really exist? Are the Bible stories about them accurate? Why did one religion need to have four manifestations? Plus, not one of them was the "perfect" reflection of God, so if they don't fit the description of a manifestation, why make them manifestations? Then, some sects in Hinduism have several incarnations of Vishnu, but Baha'is never mention them, only Krishna.

Were these people manifestations? Judaism and Christianity and maybe even Islam don't make them manifestations. Did they really exist? Sure, if you believe the Bible literally. But Baha'is don't. Then the Baha'i Faith says that a manifestation is a "perfect" reflection of God. These people were not perfect.

Then there's the Krishna problem... is he a manifestation or an incarnation as believed by some Hindus? Plus, he was said to be an incarnation of Vishnu... one of many Hindu Gods. And finally, Hindus believe there were several other incarnations of Vishnu. Baha'is don't seem to recognize them at all... only Krishna.

Yeah, same old problems and they won't ever be resolved to your satisfaction. The answers matter to you but not to me because the older religions are all ancient history now and I don't care about ancient history.

Don't resolve them answer them. What is the Baha'i answer to these? "I don't care"? Is not a very good answer. But it seems to be your favorite answer. Which sounds a lot like "I don't know. And I don't care to know." Which reflects badly on your religion and its claim of "progressive" revelation. A belief that does connect all the older religions with the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

I apologize for calling you irrational, Tb. I ought to have said that your posts are sometimes irrational, and I can see them becoming more so.

Myself and night are not the only posters here who have called your posts irrational. However, that is not to say that YOU are irrational, and I apologize again for saying that you are.

Thanks. I know others have called my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational at times but they normally do not call me irrational. There is a difference. Anyone who calls my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational should say why they think that so I can understand and reply. They might still think my beliefs (or how I came to believe them) irrational, they probably will, because believers and atheists are wired very differently.

The following may help you to understand Matthew 7 on 'judging'.
The SURPRISING Meaning Of Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged

I have heard that interpretation of those verses before, but I do not agree with the way he interpreted them, mainly because he assigned a meaning out of context, by only citing Matthew 7:1-2. From the website:

Jesus immediately goes on to say:

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:1-2)

Notice the reason Jesus warns against judgment.

The danger in passing judgment on others is that we’ll have our own standard come back to haunt us, like the spirit of judgments past.​

Imo, that is a selfish reason not to judge others, because they might judge us in return, but the primary reason I do not accept that interpretation is because meaning was assigned without looking at the context.

I also omitted verses 4 and 5, so I am quoting them now.

Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Imo, the most important message in these verses is in verse 3 and that is why Jesus says more in verses 4 and 5.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Interestingly, this is almost exactly what Baha'u'llah wrote, only Jesus was nicer in how He said it.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45