Atheism vs Theism

[alsome]

If one believes in Pascal, then one believes in god.

I don't see the gamble, dust into the wind is just that ! Ask Adam.

 

[Martin]

I've begun to think that the whole theist-atheist dichotomy is missing the point.

 

[alsome]

Right now, I think the gods are psssed with Earth and us ! If they exist I mean ?

 

[alsome]

Has everyone seen the film 'soyant green'? They killed off the old people fist, and then made of them into little nibbles of....

 

[Trailblazer]

Ergo, I am sure pretty sure He or She would consider the intellectual sin of believing in gods without evidence an abomination.

I agree, God would not want anyone to believe in Him without evidence.

God does not want us to believe just for the sake of believing, to gain a reward or avoid a punishment, not even knowing anything about the God they are believing in. God wants to be known and obeyed, not just believed in.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

 

[Trailblazer]

Right now, I think the gods are psssed with Earth and us ! If they exist I mean ?

I agree. God is trying to get our attention, and until He does, He is going to continue on the rampage.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's silly. If there were not representative Baha'i views, then you would be unable to recognize the difference between being Baha'i and not being Baha'i.

Baha'is share common beliefs but we relate to them differently and we practice our faith differently because we have different backgrounds and different personalities. Do you think all Christians are the same?

If I find a given god of a given heaven to be immoral, getting into that heaven would be hell.

You might see it differently on the other side..... I used to think that way, not because I thought God was immoral, but because I thought God was cruel for all the suffering caused by the material world He created, so I told God that I do not want to be anywhere near Him in this life or in the next. I thus made my own hell, because being distant from God is hell. I am still not going to forgive God for all my suffering but He knows that and I think he forgives me for feeling that way, knowing the suffering I have endured, and I suspect my tune will change after I die and the suffering is over and I realize what it was all for. But for now, I am still angry, although not as angry as I used to be.

 

[ppp]

Baha'is share common beliefs but we relate to them differently and we practice our faith differently because we have different backgrounds and different personalities. Do you think all Christians are the same?

Are you under the impression that representative is a synonym for "same"?

You might see it differently on the other side.

Then it wouldn't be me on the other side. That would be someone else.

I used to think that way, not because I thought God was immoral, but because I thought God was cruel for all the suffering caused by the material world He created, so I told God that I do not want to be anywhere near Him in this life or in the next. I thus made my own hell, because being distant from God is hell. I am still not going to forgive God for all my suffering but He knows that and I think he forgives me for feeling that way, knowing the suffering I have endured, and I suspect my tune will change after I die and the suffering is over and I realize what it was all for. But for now, I am still angry, although not as angry as I used to be.

I don't quite think that way. But I do feel for you, and am sorry that these things plague you. My feelings, anger or otherwise, are necessarily directed at people.

 

[columbus]

I agree. God is trying to get our attention, and until He does, He is going to continue on the rampage.

God could easily get our attention.
Just give us a bit of information that isn't more plausibly attributed to a human making things up. But there is demonstrably no God who cares about us that much.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you under the impression that representative is a synonym for "same"?

Representative means typical of a class, group, or body of opinion.
There are no typical Baha'is, all we share are common beliefs.

Then it wouldn't be me on the other side. That would be someone else.

That may well be true, because all that goes with to to the spiritual world aka afterlife is your soul, which is the sum total of your personality. As such, when you land on the afterlife landing strip, you will BE whatever you were in this life.

I don't quite think that way. But I do feel for you, and am sorry that these things plague you. My feelings, anger or otherwise, are necessarily directed at people.

How could you? You do not believe that God exists.
Nowadays, my feelings of anger are mostly directed at myself, not at other people.

 

[Trailblazer]

God could easily get our attention.
Just give us a bit of information that isn't more plausibly attributed to a human making things up. But there is demonstrably no God who cares about us that much.
Tom

And just how do you think God could relay that information?

Sorry, the only way God can relay information is through a human because that is the only way we an ever understand that information since we are also human.

 

[ppp]

Representative means typical of a class, group, or body of opinion.
There are no typical Baha'is, all we share are common beliefs.

The common beliefs would be the typical part.

How could you? You do not believe that God exists.

I couldn't. Which is why your saying that you used to think the way that I do made no sense.

 

[columbus]

And just how do you think God could relay that information?

Sorry, the only way God can relay information is through a human because that is the only way we an ever understand that information since we are also human.

I cannot believe in a god as limited as your God image. I just can't.

I understand that your beliefs are important to you, and without your vague claims about how limited God is they'd be obviously irrational. But I don't believe God is like that.
Tom

 

[ppp]

Sorry, the only way God can relay information is through a human because that is the only way we an ever understand that information since we are also human.

Then God cannot be omnipotent.

 

[Martin]

Forget "God". An outdated idea with too much baggage.
Just sit quietly, and connect with your heart. Connect with the stillness.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then God cannot be omnipotent.

Gimmie a break.
This has nothing to do with any limitations of God, it is related to the limitations of humans.

Sorry, the only way God can relay information such that a human could understand God is through a human because that is the only way we can ever understand that information since we are also human.

 

[columbus]

Sorry, the only way God can relay information such that a human could understand God is through a human because that is the only way we can ever understand that information since we are also human.

You keep insisting that God is limited this way. I see no reason to believe that.
Tom

 

[ppp]

Gimmie a break.
This has nothing to do with any limitations of God, it is related to the limitations of humans.

Sorry, the only way God can relay information such that a human could understand God is through a human because that is the only way we can ever understand that information since we are also human.

You can have all the breaks that you need.

What you are basically saying is that God is limited in what he can do, by the limitations of what humans can do. You do not get what omnipotence is. If God is omnipotent, then he can have no limitations. He could communicate any message directly with anyone, at anytime without exceeding human capacities. Or he could just change us all to be able to receive his messages.

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. Anything. ANYTHING!

 

[Trailblazer]

You keep insisting that God is limited this way. I see no reason to believe that.
Tom

God is not limited, humans are limited.
Humans cannot understand God without a mediator.... That is why the Bible says:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

That was true when the Bible was written, but according to my beliefs Jesus is not the mediator for this age because the Dispensation of Jesus has ended. Baha'u'llah is the mediator for this age because we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

You do not have to believe any of that but those are my beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can have all the breaks that you need.

What you are basically saying is that God is limited in what he can do, by the limitations of what humans can do. You do not get what omnipotence is. If God is omnipotent, then he can have no limitations. He could communicate any message directly with anyone, at anytime without exceeding human capacities. Or he could just change us all to be able to receive his messages.

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. Anything. ANYTHING!

Gimme a break.
Essentially, you are telling God what He should do, because you think God can do it since God is omnipotent.

It is YOU who does not understand what omnipotence is. Omnipotence means God is totally in charge and that means God does not take any orders from any humans.

God is not your short order cook. Logically speaking, God an omnipotent God would never take orders from humans. God does not want to communicate directly to humans and that is why He doesn't even if He could. Mature adults understand that and they accept God's method of communication which is through Messengers. Babies who want their bottle just want their bottle, but they will never get what they want because an omnipotent God does not take orders from humans. Like duh.

The following excerpts from longer passages summaries what it means to be omnipotent.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284