Atheism vs Theism

[Trailblazer]

If God is omnipotent, then he can have no limitations. He could communicate any message directly with anyone, at anytime without exceeding human capacities. Or he could just change us all to be able to receive his messages.

Atheists say God is omnipotent because that means that God to do what they want God to do, but they never mention that God is omniscient because the logical implications of omniscience is that God knows more than they can ever know.

The logical implications of God's omniscience are as follows: If God chose to use Messengers to communicate that means that was the BEST way to communicate -- in order to achieve His goals. Obviously, if direct communication to everyone was the BEST way for God to achieve His goals an omnipotent God could have used that method.

Moreover, the observable fact that God has never communicated directly to everyone has the following logical implications: God does not want to communicate directly to everyone, because an omnipotent God could communicate directly to everyone if He wanted to.

Atheists consider themselves logical yet this basic logic flies right over their head.

 

[alsome]

God / angels / messenger / Mary / Jesus / Christ / God.
Never, ever, kill the messenger !

 

[columbus]

Sorry, the only way God can relay information

God is not limited, humans are limited.

You just claimed that God is incapable of relaying information without human spokesmen, then claimed that it's humans that are limited, not God.

I agree that humans are very limited, because God makes us that way. But you're also claiming that God is limited to Messengers, such as your favorite prophets. I don't believe that.

Moreover, the observable fact that God has never communicated directly to everyone has the following logical implications: God does not want to communicate directly to everyone, because an omnipotent God could communicate directly to everyone if He wanted to.

A more plausible implication is that God doesn't care about humans.

You keep limiting God to your religion, while claiming that God is Almighty. I don't find that a credible line of argument at all.
Tom

 

[ppp]

Atheists say God is omnipotent because that means that God to do what they want God to do

You are just changing the topic (again) from what omnipotents means to some fiction you have made up about what I want. And the thing is, even if I were one of your fictitious atheists, who somehow "wants" a being that they do not believe exists to do some thing, it still would not change the fact that omnipotence means that the being could do anything at all. Anything.

God does not want to communicate directly to everyone, because an omnipotent God could communicate directly to everyone if He wanted to.

That is what I said. And you told me I was wrong. :-D

 

[coconut theology]

God could easily get our attention. ...
Tom

What did you have in mind?

 

[coconut theology]

Forget "God". An outdated idea with too much baggage.
Just sit quietly, and connect with your heart. Connect with the stillness.

1. Your heart is not "still", and can never be. It is always thinking, even if it is thinking about trying not to think. 2. The human heart (mind), carries a great deal of pain, suffering, sorrow, anguish, regret, failures, and so on, but also, joys, pleasures, moments of peace, and successes amidst the life in this present world.

Trying to escape such through self-'mental' retardation is futile and ultimately meaningless. You know it (but run from it), and I know it.

God? God is easy to know is real, and no matter where you look, or don't look, external to internal, the knowledge of God cannot be escaped, only attempted to be ignored.

 

[columbus]

What did you have in mind?

Here's the rest of my post which you don't seem to have noticed.

Just give us a bit of information that isn't more plausibly attributed to a human making things up. But there is demonstrably no God who cares about us that much.

There's lots of ways to do it in this Age of Information. Mass communication is now a real thing. I realize that the primitive folks who invented Scripture didn't know about it, but God did.
Ya know. If God exists.
Tom

 

[coconut theology]

Here's the rest of my post which you don't seem to have noticed.


There's lots of ways to do it in this Age of Information. Mass communication is now a real thing. I realize that the primitive folks who invented Scripture didn't know about it, but God did.
Tom

Are you saying 'word of mouth' (WOM) is outdated? - (PDF) The Effect of Word of Mouth Communication on Marketing Performance –Case Study of Condor Brand from Customer perspective

Why Word-Of-Mouth Is The BEST Marketing Tool You Have

Why Word Of Mouth Marketing Is The Most Important Social Media

I "noticed" just fine your response, but you have neglected anything specific, and left it purposefully generic. I am asking you to be specific.

PS. the Bible is in every language, and also digitized. It is indeed electronic, and the information freely available.

 

[columbus]

Are you saying 'word of mouth' (WOM) is outdated? -

Outdated isn't the word I'd use.
Unreliable would be much closer. For an unimportant subject, WOM would be sufficient evidence, usually. Especially if the WOM weren't making an implausibly extraordinary claim.

But for important, implausible, claims WOM isn't reliable. Quite the contrary, people make ridiculous claims all the time and I usually don't believe them.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

You just claimed that God is incapable of relaying information without human spokesmen, then claimed that it's humans that are limited, not God.

No, I did not say that God is incapable of relaying information without human spokesmen:

I said: Sorry, the only way God can relay information such that a human could understand God is through a human because that is the only way we can ever understand that information since we are also human.

My whole point is that humans cannot understand direct communication from God, so it is a human limitation, not a limitation of God.

I agree that humans are very limited, because God makes us that way. But you're also claiming that God is limited to Messengers, such as your favorite prophets. I don't believe that.

No, I did not say that God is limited to Messengers, I said humans cannot understand communication from God with a mediator, which is the Messenger.

A more plausible implication is that God doesn't care about humans.

It makes no sense at all that God does not care about humans. Why would God create humans if God did not care about humans? God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining so God has no need for humans. Everything that God bestows upon humans is for our benefit, not for God's benefit, because God has no needs.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

You keep limiting God to your religion, while claiming that God is Almighty. I don't find that a credible line of argument at all.
Tom

God is certainly not limited to my religion, or any religion, as God has no limitations.

 

[columbus]

I "noticed" just fine your response, but you have neglected anything specific, and left it purposefully generic.

Because I've been discussing this lack of Divine Information for years and gotten tired of religionists who seem to think that they're the first Christian(or whatever) I've met. Lots and lots of humans have tried to convince me that while God won't talk to me, He sent them to explain it all.

Their favorite prophets.
Their favorite Scripture.
Their favorite God.

It's all about them. And how if I were just smart enough to recognize their authority, God would like me to, and communicate directly. But first, I have to recognize their position as Official Spokesman for God. And stop listening to those heretics who don't interpret the correct English translation of the Bible the way God told everyone to.
Tom

 

[columbus]

No, I did not say that God is incapable of relaying information without human spokesmen:

Yes you did.
And you keep repeating it over and over.

God cannot communicate with humans. He is forced to go through "Messengers", because He cannot make humans capable of being communicated with.

You keep saying this, it's a fundamental tenet of Bahai. God cannot just explain what is real to everyone, because then your religion would have no reason to exist.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

even if I were one of your fictitious atheists, who somehow "wants" a being that they do not believe exists to do some thing, it still would not change the fact that omnipotence means that the being could do anything at all. Anything.

These atheists are not fictitious. Maybe you are not one of them but they do exist. I know that only too well because I posted to one of them almost daily for six years.

God could do anything does not mean God does everything He could do... Do you understand the difference?
God can do anything does not mean God does everything atheists want God to do... Do you understand the difference?

Baha'u'llah's definitions of the omnipotent God are picture perfect, and they align perfectly with logic.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

In short, God only does what God desires and chooses to do, not what humans want Him to do, UNLESS what we want God to do is aligned with God's Will.

There is no way to weasel out of this and pretend you are logical.

 

[coconut theology]

seem to think that they're the first Christian(or whatever) I've met.

I think you think too much of 'you'. Self-importance. I didn't think it, say it, or intimate such a thing, and it is not really relevant whether I was (and am not) or not.

 

[coconut theology]

Unreliable would be much closer.

Study please? I would like facts, not biased aprioric rhetoric. Of course, I cannot take 'you' as authority.

 

[coconut theology]

For an unimportant subject, WOM would be sufficient evidence, usually. Especially if the WOM weren't making an implausibly extraordinary claim.

What makes what I have said 'extraordinary' and what foundational unchanging standard did you base that position upon, scientifically?

For instance, books in libraries are written by authors.

 

[coconut theology]

God cannot communicate with humans. He is forced to go through "Messengers", because He cannot make humans capable of being communicated with.

God has, does and yet still can communicate with mankind. The evidence is there from the beginning even until now, and there is no reason to suspect it would ever cease.

God is never "forced". About anything.

God not only did make mankind capable of being communicated with, God even today communicates with mankind on several levels, and in differing manners, directly and indirectly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes you did.
And you keep repeating it over and over.

God cannot communicate with humans. He is forced to go through "Messengers", because He cannot make humans capable of being communicated with.

I agree, that is what I have been saying in so many words. God has to go through "Messengers" because humans are not capable of understanding direct communication from God. The only way God could make humans capable of understanding Him is if God recreated humans so that they had a divine mind, like the Messengers have, but if God had wanted to create humans that way God would have created them that way; so the logical conclusion is that God never intended for humans to understand God directly, without a mediator. And of course history demonstrates that God has always used a mediator to communicate to humans, and it is only atheists and a handful of believers who believe they can go directly to God who have a problem with mediators.

You keep saying this, it's a fundamental tenet of Baha'i. God cannot just explain what is real to everyone, because then your religion would have no reason to exist.
Tom

The need for a mediator/Messenger is fundamental tenet if every Abrahamic religion and most of the other religions, even though they do not state it the same way Baha'is do.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[ppp]

These atheists are not fictitious. Maybe you are not one of them but they do exist. I know that only too well because I posted to one of them almost daily for six years.

If your alleged 'atheist' actually wanted some god to do something, then he would have to be believe that god was there to do things. In which case, he could not have been an atheist.

God could do anything does not mean God does everything He could do... Do you understand the difference?

I do. But the thing is Trailblazer, that you started off by saying that your god could not speak to humans. And you tried to tell me I was wrong to say that an omnipotent being could. Now you have back pedaled on that, and agreed that if your god existed that he could speak to everyone. That is all that I said. Thank you for agreeing that I was right.

.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has, does and yet still can communicate with mankind. The evidence is there from the beginning even until now, and there is no reason to suspect it would ever cease.

Then how come atheists are not getting the message?