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Featured Atheism vs Theism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by questfortruth, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    If an atheist becomes more like Orthodox Christian (atheist becomes closer to Orthodox Christianity), then he becomes closer to any religion, e.g. pantheism, Islam, Catholicism, antropotheism, deism.

    Proof:

    Atheism is infinitely remote from any religion.

    Thus, the Pascal Wager has perfect sense. It is the step to improvement.



    The theist thinks, that for any person the step towards God is an improvement. The atheism is infinitely remote from any theism and from any religion. Thus, if any atheist becomes more like a Christian, he becomes more like a Muslim. And if any atheist becomes more like a Muslim, he becomes more like a Christian. That is all message I bring in.

    I mean, if an atheist would accept Christianity, he would become closer to Islam than ever before.

    You would become "practical theist." You could ask the local church community: "are practical theists in Heaven?" Faith is deeds. Faith is faithfulness.

    I have answered the question. The question was: what if an atheist starts to read the prayers, to go to church (and go through all the ceremonies, including baptism), to make good deeds, does he become saved from hell? If all that time he would remain an atheist? He would be practical theist. Hence - theist: "I will judge by deeds" (Jesus Christ).

    No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."

    The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."

    If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).

    I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).

    The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV
    If an atheist becomes more like Orthodox Christian (atheist becomes closer to Orthodox Christianity), then he becomes closer to any religion, e.g. pantheism, Islam, Catholicism, antropotheism, deism.

    Proof:

    Atheism is infinitely remote from any religion.

    Thus, the Pascal Wager has perfect sense. It is the step to improvement.



    The theist thinks, that for any person the step towards God is an improvement. The atheism is infinitely remote from any theism and from any religion. Thus, if any atheist becomes more like a Christian, he becomes more like a Muslim. And if any atheist becomes more like a Muslim, he becomes more like a Christian. That is all message I bring in.

    I mean, if an atheist would accept Christianity, he would become closer to Islam than ever before.

    You would become "practical theist." You could ask the local church community: "are practical theists in Heaven?" Faith is deeds. Faith is faithfulness.

    I have answered the question. The question was: what if an atheist starts to read the prayers, to go to church (and go through all the ceremonies, including baptism), to make good deeds, does he become saved from hell? If all that time he would remain an atheist? He would be practical theist. Hence - theist: "I will judge by deeds" (Jesus Christ).

    No. The practicing theism (practical theism) is good as well. Why? Because Jesus has said: "I will judge by deeds." As well Jesus said: "I do not want the death of a sinner."

    The faith is the faithfulness. If an atheist would faithfully follow the 10 commandments, including "Love your God", he can go to Heaven through practical theism. How could atheists love a "fictional" character? No problem, in my youth I was loving Robin Hood and took examples from him. It was my "invisible friend."

    If there is no hell, then there is no bottom of hell. Hence, hell has no bottom. It is the "bottomless pit" (Bible).

    I afraid, that not. They are infinitely remote. All good religions are angry against abortions and suicide. The atheism allows them. Thus, the atheism comes from satan, theism comes from God. "There is nothing in common between good and evil" (cf. Bible).

    The atheists have no chance to defeat the logic of a single theist. Why? Because God's names are Truth, Logic, Mindfulness, and Reason. Theists always win the logic battle: "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NIV
     
    #1 questfortruth, Sep 13, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  2. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    First, pantheism, anthropotheism, and deism are not religions. They are simply a view of what god is and is not.

    What, based on Stephen's videos, makes you think that Pascal's Wager is a step to improvement? Did you listen to all three in the series, or just this one?
     
  3. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    They are theisms. Atheism is infinitely far away from all religions and all theisms.
     
  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
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    Yikes. I watched that whole 11 minute video expecting to hear some objections to the Wager and his responses. But alas, those are apparently in subsequent videos?

    There are a few major problems with Pascal's Wager.

    The first has to do with what is being believed. The first premise of the argument is that God is utterly incomprehensible. In Pascal's words, "we are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is." If that's the case, then what is it that theists like Pascal are actually doing what they say they believe God exists? How can we say we believe something exists when we don't have any clue what the thing is? It makes no sense. It would be like me saying I believe 2fp9823fh23foi2uh3f exists. Huh?

    Second, Pascal's argument presumes that we can choose what we believe, after evaluating which beliefs will or won't benefit us. This is simply not how beliefs work. As I've argued elsewhere, to believe means to be genuinely convinced something is true. If I genuinely believe God exists, I can't just wake up tomorrow and decide I'm not convinced of that anymore because I don't see it benefitting me. Similarly, no atheist can simply decide that they believe in God now because it might somehow benefit them to do so. So Pascal's whole premise of how belief works doesn't match reality.

    Third, the results of belief imagined in Pascal's Punnett square-like reasoning are overly simplistic. What if the Christian God doesn't exist, but some other God does? What if a God exists who will send all Christians to a punishment of infinite torment for not believing in Her? In that case, the potential consequences of believing in the Christian God are just as dire for the Christian as they are for the atheist who doesn't believe. What if a God exists who rewards and punishes people not based on their belief in Him, but on how well they treat others? In that case, believing or not believing is completely irrelevant to the question of whether we'll gain infinite reward or infinite loss. Pascal's Wager accounts for none of these possibilities.

    In short, Pascal's Wager is a hot mess. Christians really should ditch it.
     
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  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
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    This is incorrect. There are non-theistic religions.
     
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  6. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    Theism is simply the view that there is at least one god. There are a lot of religious that are theistic. Wicca, Islam, etc. Theism is not a religion. It is a category under which most of the world's religions fall.

    I am not feeling much confidence that this is going any where, so I am just going with the basic wikipedia definition. --> Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements.

    Neither pantheism nor deism is not any of that. All deism describes is an unknowable god that created the universe and has no subsequent interaction with it., All Pantheism describes is a universe that is god. Etc. There may be religions that fall under those categories, but the categories are not religions.

    Jain is an atheistic religion. Several forms of Buddhism are atheistic. The buddhas are not gods.

    I asked you...
    What, based on Stephen's videos, makes you think that Pascal's Wager is a step to improvement? Did you listen to all three in the series, or just this one?

    No answer?
     
  7. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    The theist thinks, that for any person the step towards God is an improvement. The atheism is infinitely remote from any theism and from any religion. Thus, if any atheist becomes more like a Christian, he becomes more like a Muslim. And if any atheist becomes more like a Muslim, he becomes more like a Christian. That is all message I bring in.
     
  8. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    This is a really key point that the OP does not address.
     
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  9. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    So, this is a purely subjective thing. You prefer theism, therefore anyone that moves to what you prefer is an "improvement." Just like I think that anyone who moves away from cooking with boiled okra is making an improvement.

    "Infinitely remote" is poetic, I guess. I have no idea how you would or could quantify that. If all that you mean is that atheists do not believe theistic claims, then sure. That is true.

    I assume that you mean only in the realm of god belief. Because if you mean over all, if an atheist starts eating bacon, he becomes more like a Christian, but less like a Muslim.
    Um, okay. Why? If you don't mind me asking.
     
  10. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Which theists think that now? Because I sure don't think that. I don't even acknowledge God much, short of not being able to get away from it because Abrahamic monotheists dominate theological conversations in the English-speaking world.
     
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  11. Erebus

    Erebus Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget religions like Satanism, Setianism and Demonolatry.

    By your logic, becoming more like a Christian also makes you more like a demon worshipper ;)

    Not me. I'm a theist who doesn't believe in God. I also don't consider theism to be an improvement over atheism, they're just different ways of looking at things.

    So you have religious atheists and theists who neither believe in God nor believe other people should either. Your argument is taking a few hits here, friend.
     
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  12. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Any entity that falls for Pascal's Wager does not deserve to be called God
     
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  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Even if I took Pascal's wager, that would not make me any closer to believing God exists.
     
  14. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    I mean, if an atheist would accept Christianity, he would become closer to Islam than ever before.
     
  15. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    You would become "practical theist." You could ask the local church community: "are practical theists in Heaven?" Faith is deeds. Faith is faithfulness.
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Just what is a practical theist putting his faith in when he don't believe God exists?
    I mean I truly wish there was a righteous God.
     
  17. questfortruth

    questfortruth Well-Known Member

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    I have answered the question. The question was: what if an atheist starts to read the prayers, to go to church (and go through all the ceremonies, including baptism), to make good deeds, does he become saved from hell? If all that time he would remain an atheist? He would be practical theist. Hence - theist: "I will judge by deeds" (Jesus Christ).
     
  18. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    [shrug]
     
  19. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    On the contrary, atheists are very close to most monotheists: we simply believe in one fewer deity among many.
     
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  20. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    There is no hell.
    There is no salvation apart from behaviour change.
    Jesus is a mythical being.
    Mohammed was not a divine messenger.
    There are no angels.
    There is no paradise, apart from activation of 5ht-2a receptors.

    Be good to me, and I’ll be good to you.
    That’s it.
     
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