astral projection is biblical

[Jollybear]

I already addressed this. Moses himself said that God had no form, even after this encounter with God. The references to God’s face, hand and back are all synkatavasis, or God condescending to us, lowering Himself to our level of understanding, explaining things in ways that we can understand. He had no actual physical body, but He made these statements so that Moses could understand what God was saying. This is the universal teaching of Christianity and Judaism alike. Your interpretation matches up neither with what the Jews have to say about the passage nor what we Christians have to say.

God has no form, he is Spirit, but Spirit can take on form, God can take on a PRE incarnate form, which he did with Moses. If God did not appear as a form to Moses, then God would not have talked about his back, hands and face to him. He would have just easily said “I’ll show you levels of my glory, but the fullness of my glory (face) you must not see.” That would be quite easy to understand.

Plus, do you speak for all Jews and all Christians? I don’t think so. Even Justine myrter one of church fathers agrees that this was a pre incarnate form of God.

Plus one more thing, if you’re going to say that God only became an incarnate form at the time of Jesus, in the form of Jesus, then you’re saying in essence that Jesus (form of God) was not with the father from the beginning. Now I’m sure you don’t want to say that do you?

I’ve been over this point ad nauseum, but you still just don’t quite understand. No, God does not force us to sin. But ecstasy (the particular type of “OBE” that God gives, if the particular case of ecstasy does result in something of an OBE) is a completely different experience between the self-induced OBE that you describe. So you cannot say that, because ecstasy is holy, your self-induced OBE’s are as well. They are two totally different things and have no connection to each other whatsoever. Stop with the strawmen and face reality. What God gives us in the state of ecstasy is not at all like the technique you promote. You absolutely cannot say that, because ecstasy is holy, self-induced OBE’s are as well, because the two are completely different. There is no double standard whatsoever in saying so. One is holy and the other sinful in the same way that fornication is sinful, but loving sex between two married spouses is not. Outside their proper contexts, the actions become sinful. Do you get it yet? I’m tired of explaining the same point over and over. If you are blind to this, then no argument of mine will open your eyes.

Ok, so if God gives an OBE, which comes with ecstasy, then it’s ok, but if we do it, it’s not ok. You’re saying the difference is in the ecstasy. Ok, well why then am I still allowed to pray if I don’t have ecstasy, but I am not allowed to induce an OBE without ecstasy? Again, that’s not consistent. This is like if I invited a friend over to my house and told him “you can only come in if you have a big smile on your face from ear to ear, if not, then you cannot enter the door” would that not be weird? Yes it would be. Of course he can come in that door whether he has a grin from ear to ear or not. In other words, why does ecstasy which makes it different entering that “door” sorta speak, now make it OK to have that OBE, but if you don’t have that ecstasy, now you’re not allowed to have that OBE (enter that door)? What makes the ecstasy now make the person permitted to enter? Tell me that?

Wrong. Prayer is, by definition, communion with God, and not a rebellious act.

It CAN be a rebellious act, but even if at a particular time it’s a rebellious act, it would still at the same time be communication with God. But, if God told you to stop praying and go do something else, and you kept praying, yea, your still communicating with God, but your rebelling at the same time. You see, it’s not ABOUT praying, it’s about being in union or ONE with God.

How? How can self-induced OBE’s be used FOR God? All you’ve been able to mention so far is asking God for suggestions on where to fly—and that doesn’t count for much. It’s like asking who to slaughter, to use an earlier comparison.

Seriously, you have to give up that comparison; it is EXTREMELY WEAK beyond measure. OBE’s are not even closely compared to murdering someone. So asking God where to travel in the spirit realm is nowhere close to asking God who should I kill today? It’s just nonsensical in comparison. Like if you ask yourself where should I go on a hike today, do you see any remote similarity in that compared to asking who should I kill today? It’s the same with an OBE. Now add to it, we ask God where would he like us travel, what’s wrong with it? So yes it does count for much.

No. We will never sin once in Heaven. We know that to sin means to suffer and die, and to be cut off from God, Who is Life, Love and Light. Once we experience Heaven, we will never, ever want to sin again, nor will we ever sin. We know the hell and suffering that sin brings. We won’t ever want that again, when comparing suffering apart from God to rejoicing with Him. We will experience the LAST Judgement on the day of resurrection, meaning, we will forever be in Heaven, if we are saved, and there will be no more sins committed that need to be judged. We’ll still have our free will, yes, but we are always going to choose God over sin without exception once in Heaven. I’m leaving nothing out. If anything, the point you made argues even further against your argument that the whole of the OT is an extension of the Exodus typology.

So we will never sin once in heaven? You sound very sure of this, but you have no way of knowing that since you even admit free will, will still exist in heaven. And if free will exists in heaven, then the POTENTIAL to sin is still there, even if we concede that the likelihood of sinning up there is small, the potential regardless would still be there if free will is still there. So therefore you cannot be so sure of this, you don’t know, if Lucifer and a third of the angelic host who were perfect in holiness and one with God, and had no sin nature and no influence of evil around them, used their will to exercise sin and rebellion against God, how can you be so sure it won’t happen again? You cannot be 100% sure of that. Also if you are 100% sure of this, then free will cannot exist in heaven in that case. So yes, in light of that, my typology of the Israelites in Canaan land (heaven) and them rebelling and being thrown out of Canaan land (heaven) can work. Plus, I said Canaan land, I did not say Eden, which was guarded. So even in the third heaven, there are more levels, just like levels in Canaan land. Gotcha!

But after the Last Judgement, Satan is made utterly powerless. You yourself said that there is no devil to tempt us once we are in Heaven. There is also no devil to take us away from Heaven. NEVER does the Devil take us away from God, ever. God is the One Who sentences people to Hell, not Satan.

The Babylonians were not in the land tempting the Israelites to sin against God (devil is not in heaven tempting us to sin against God) but the Israelites sinned against God of their own free will (people can sin against God in heaven of their own exercise of their free will). The Babylonians could not steal the Israelites out of the land, God gave them over to the Babylonians for exile (God gives the sinful souls over to the devil for exile). You’re never going to get out of this point, I’m going to make it vice grip tight.

If the Temple is us, then others force their way in and snatch us away from God, forcibly setting up idols and destroying us. If we work off of your typology, then it is sinners and demons that destroy us. Christ promised that this would never happen. Only God can destroy us, not sinners or demons.

No, the temple is OUR BODY, our body is not US, the US is our spirit IN the body. Gotcha again! So demons and sinners don’t set up idols in us, WE either set them up or allow them to be set up. Also if you think God is the only one that destroys us and not demons, then self inducing an OBE should be ok, because a demon cannot harm me then like you said before, so now your contradicting that.

 

[Jollybear]

Also, now who’s changing the typology? We said in the beginning that it was the Hebrews, not the Temple, who represent the faithful. Further, here you say that the Temple represents the body. Are you now giving up on the Hebrews’ tents being representative of their bodies, then? Are you now changing the typology to avoid some nasty contradictions?

Oh you think you got me, but you really don’t, let me explain: Yes the Hebrews tents do typify the EARTHLY body, the temple typifies the HEAVENLY body (2 cor 5:1). Gotcha! lol So there is no contradiction.

The Temple is destroyed. The place where God made His dwelling is destroyed. If you believe that the land of Canaan is always a type of Israel throughout the entire Bible, then you must believe that even the third heaven is conquered by Satan—twice. The invaders wholly conquered the land of Israel and all that is in it, twice. If you do not think that they captured Heaven itself (as in the third Heaven), then you must admit that the land of Israel is not Heaven—further contradicting yourself. You are proving my point about how the Exodus typology cannot be used across the whole of Biblical history. You have no way out of this. I’m a pro at weaseling out of things, and believe me, there’s no escape from the predicament you’re in. You have two choices: Attempt to further defend your argument about the Exodus typology being applicable to the whole of Biblical history and further refute yourself, or concede the argument and admit that the Exodus typology cannot be used for the whole of Biblical history.

Yes, the invaders conquered the Israelites twice and exiled them and took over the land. But they did not take over the garden of Eden which is guarded by an angel with a flaming sword. So yes, Satan can conquer souls in heaven, but not souls in the garden of Eden, in other words, there is levels to the third heaven, just as there are levels to Canaan land. Plus even if you want to say Satan went into the garden of Eden and conquered them, well, he was allowed in the garden of Eden technically in the beginning. So even if I did say he went into Eden and took the souls by making them sin, that just means he is taking land, that is the soul is the land or property of God, he stole it, it does not mean he is stealing Eden’s land. So the invaders take over the land, exile the people. Satan takes over the soul that sins, the soul is the property or land of God and when the soul sins, they get exiled away from God. Remember the bible also says that the Israelites were the inheritance of God and God was the inheritance of them.

You’ve done the complete opposite, actually. You’ve debunked your own argument.

Not exactly, look above.

Once the Hebrews flee Egypt, that’s the start of the Exodus and the Exodus typology. Once the Hebrews get to the Promised Land and settle, that’s the end of the Exodus, and the end of the Exodus typology. How hard is that to understand?

That’s very hard to understand, that’s how hard. Because the stories connect, thus the typology would as well. The two stories are not independent of each other.

To foreshadow something means to hint at a future event. This is not limited to typologies, but also extends to hints and prophecies in general.

True, but the Old Testament is also typologies. All of its history is and it’s laws. The countless examples of the prophets, apostles using metaphors and parables testifies to this reality. If I were to quote them, it would probably take me quite awhile to gather and type out every quote.

Have you in fact read the early Church Fathers? The great Biblical exegetes are Origen of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great. Ss. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Polycarp and the other early Church Fathers don’t have too many Biblical commentaries known to us, so of course you wouldn’t have found them saying anything against your opinion. If the Fathers spent their time refuting every false interpretation of the Bible, they wouldn’t have time to teach the true interpretation of Scripture. Suffice it to say that no Father used the Exodus typology to cover the whole of Biblical history, and they certainly didn’t try to read as much into it as you do.

Yes, I read the early church fathers (the ones who knew the apostles), I have not read the fathers AFTER the earliest ones though. I was simply not interested to do so because I have confidence in thinking for myself, however, I was interested in reading the earliest fathers because they knew the apostles, so their work and insights are of utmost value. I’m not saying the other fathers work is not valuable, it surely is, but in my view the earliest would be greater. But anyway, that’s a sideline. Your saying the early fathers would not have time to refute all the bad interpretations and beliefs, to this I say, wrong, totally wrong. What’s our life span anyways? 80 years on average? Is that not enough “TIME” to preach truth and refute every major lie and falsehood out their? I say, yes, that is MORE than enough time. Just look at our 20 pages of detail back and forth, it only took us about a month or so, not even a fraction of 80 years, and you’re telling me the early church fathers did not have time to refute false teachings? Not to mention, that is what most of them gave themselves to full time, and we have jobs. So, don’t give me that now.

Also you don’t know how much the fathers read INTO the Old Testament. Many of their letters were generalized. Even St Paul said he had many more things to say, which he did not want to write but speak to the church in person. Wouldn’t it be nice to have heard all of that? Oh yea, they had a lot more detailed thoughts then just what they wrote down, come on.

 

[Jollybear]

By looking at the Tradition of the Church. By looking at whose interpretation is in line with the Fathers.

Yea, and my meditation about Canaan land is in line with the bible and the tradition of the church and the interpretation of the fathers, and you say yours is and mine is not. Ok, how do we figure out who’s is now?

I’m not changing anything, and I’m being perfectly consistent. Just because Canaan is a type of Heaven in the Exodus story does not mean that it is a type of Heaven in the rest of the Bible.

You’re not being consistent, you’re contradicting yourself. Your saying Canaan land typifies heaven in the exodus but it does not once the Israelites enter the land and settle. That is a contradiction. But you justify the contradiction by saying it’s a different story once their settled in the land. This justification is ridiculous because they’re not separate stories. A separate story would be if I went to the book store and bought two separate books, both novels of life stories of two different people who have nothing to do with each other and then read their story. But in the case of the exodus and the Israelites settling in Canaan land, it’s the SAME STORY. It’s just a continuum of that story. Think a part 1 and part 2 of a movie series vs two completely different movies.

Foreigners ARE Gentiles, by definition, not a type of them.

A Jew born in the united states who migrates to Canada is not a foreigner huh? Lol. That’s funny, your funny

Anyone who’s not a Jew is a Gentile and a foreigner. The Church is the Third Temple, not just an antitype of the Temple, as we learn from John 2:19 and 1 Corinthians 12:27. You’re still trying to stretch the Exodus typology over the rest of the Biblical history.

1 Kings 8:41 is not a typology, but a foreshadowing. Solomon’s prayer came to full fruition when the Gentiles, AKA the foreigners, came into the Church, which is the new Temple.

You just contradicted yourself, you just said 1 Kings 8:41 is not a typology yet you say the church is the temple. Ok, well the church being the temple of Solomon is a typology then. Solomon’s temple to you is a typology of the church that the gentiles come into. Ok, so now, if the gentiles (foreigners) come into the church (temple) and the church (temple) is seated in heaven (Canaan land) then the gentiles can visit heaven.

Oh yea! Gotcha

As I said, if the Fathers spent all their time refuting every false idea that ever came up, there would be no time left to preach the Truth. Did the Fathers teach every correct interpretation of Scripture there is? No, of course not.

They had more than enough time to preach every correct interpretation and refute every false one. And they probably did, they just did not write it down, they did preaching lectures verbally. But of course those aren’t going to be on record.

But the question you need to ask yourself is, is your interpretation in line with what the Fathers teach? Would they ever have advocated such self-induced OBE’s as you describe? Would they ever have agreed with your position? No.

Oh yea, I believe they most certainly would agree with my position. You wait and see, after you die you’re going to find out that your position on this subject is incorrect.

Our current bodies are called “tents” because they are mortal, subject to decay, and easy to tear apart—and in the end, will be dissolved and destroyed. This is how the Fathers interpret 2 Corinthians 5, among them being St. John Chrysostom. Our bodies are NOT called “tents” because we can leave them whenever we like or because we spend as much time outside our bodies as in them, but because they are flimsy and easily destroyed.

If your going to use the analogy of the tent, you have to be consistent with everything about a tent. If the body is the tent, then the person living in the tent is the spirit, if a person can sleep and live in a tent and then leave and walk about outside the tent, then you have to be consistent with that part of the analogy and realize the soul can travel outside the tent (body). GOTTA be consistent. The body is not JUST a tent because it’s flimsy, it’s also a tent because our spirit lives IN IT but does not have to STAY in it, just like a person does not have to stay stuck in a tent 24/7.

The same way I always deal with empty conjecture without support: I dismiss it for being unfounded speculation on something about which we know nothing. We have no idea where the idea of a silver cord originally came from, and no evidence to make a guess one way or the other.

You just said a part of scripture is not inspired by saying this. You’re not being orthodox now. The bible says “all scripture is inspired of God, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16) now does it say that it’s useful for making good guesses, particularly about the silver cord? Nooooooo, it does not. But you’re saying Ecclesiastes is making a good guess. If that is the case, then it’s not inspired of God. Looks like you’re in heresy. The fact that they knew of this silver cord shows us that they witnessed it. When God reveals truths, he does so through experience. You think God just said “hey, you know you have a silver cord attached to your soul and body, and when you die it snaps?” come on, no, he or others in his day experienced and witnessed this silver cord just like astral projectors see and witness it today when they self induced an OBE. The fact he mentions the silver cord is evidence in itself they knew of this thing self induced OBErs have touted for awhile now.

 

[Shiranui117]

Forgive me for waiting so long before posting a response. I haven't been an active poster on the Internet in general recently, just lurking. I suppose this conversation deserves continuation.

You misunderstood my point. I am not disagreeing that the “blessings” were visible, that’s OBVIOUS. My question to you is and which you have not answered in this response here, how did laban know WHEN Jacobs God was blessing him vs WHEN his lesser gods were blessing him?

Alright, I'm going to make this as simple as I possibly can, so that even little children can understand it.

Laban had flocks, but they didn't really grow under his care. Laban had Jacob shepherd and take care of his flocks. When Laban's flocks grew under Jacob's care, and became really big, healthy and numerous. Now, when Laban was taking care of his own flocks, the flock didn't prosper, and he knew his own gods weren't blessing him. But when his flocks grew under Jacob's care, Laban knew that Jacob's God was blessing him, because Jacob only had one God.

Yes, when you self induce an OBE, your learning more about your soul and spirit DIRECTLY, you’re experiencing it. You learn more about the spirit realm DIRECTLY through experience.

You don't need OBE's to learn about your soul and spirit, or experience it.

You cultivate the virtue of courage by letting go and projecting out of the body and facing whatever comes your way in that realm.

Yeah, like jumping into unknown waters without a life jacket. There could be some nice sea turtles, or sharks that will tear you to pieces. That's rashness, not courage.

When you invite God into the experience, you can learn what it’s like to meet God in that realm through the avenue of an OBE(please don’t come back with the argument, you can learn God in the body, we’ve been their).

But if you CAN experience God while in the body, then what's the point in trying to do the same thing in an OBE? It just makes things unnecessarily complicated.

That guy who told me he visited heaven through a self induced OBE, when I asked him what it was like vs what hell was like. He said in heaven everyone was very happy all the time, loved each other, they were all one. In hell everyone was bitter and angry and hated one another. I can reasonably suppose that heaven would have made him love God more since the experience of being there.

You don't need an OBE to know any of that, either.

Also I think God wants me to do it, yes, I think he is trying to stretch me spiritually and my spiritual senses and train them and get away from the physical senses and to LEARN this stuff inside out through direct experience, how else can you learn this stuff, for real now? You can’t learn it just by reading a book, let’s get real. You have to have practical information and practical exercises and a direct aim and then DO IT and experience it.

You should look into Hesychasm. Read some of the Desert Fathers. Read The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus. Those will give you some ideas about how to start leading a spiritual life. They're full of practical information and practical exercises, have a direct aim, and recount the experiences of those who have done it. They are great guidelines.

I am giving you and am more than willing to give you resources and direction in pursuing an authentically Christian spiritual life that is founded on the Apostolic Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures. Yet I fear that my attempts to point you in that direction are being ignored. If you want to embark on the spiritual life, then I am willing to help you in that endeavor, unworthy and unprofitable sinner that I am.

The bible says in Hebrews 5:11-14 and 6:1-3 “ I feel many things that are going on in the Christian church are ENFANTILE. Even their prophesying and speaking in tongues (which I have had some pretty awesome and real experiences with that) are infantile.

Oh, agreed. Which is why I'm moving toward Orthodox Christianity, because it is at that more mature, mystical level. It's not stuck at that infantile level like what you have in low-church, Charismatic Christianity.

I believe and feel God wants me to move higher, a lot higher, and higher is an understatement, I mean BEYOND higher. I believe God wants everyone to go beyond higher, but hardly ANYBODY is ready for it. I like the typology of Elijah and the prophets, Elijah was at the river, but the prophets were at a distance. God wants us not to be at a distance. He wants us to go deeper, and most people don’t know what deep is, they have their pathetic small version of what “deep” with God is, but God wants to throw that on its head and really show them what deep is. I feel the church (not everywhere) and ourselves are holding ourselves BACK, at a distance.

You would like the Orthodox teaching on theosis, I think. It does stress this spiritual maturation and development, and such maturation and development is very strongly encouraged in Orthodox circles.

Christians and the occult don’t OWN their terminology, terminology is owned by everyone, what matters is NOT the terminology, but rather the MEANING behind the terminology and if the terminology in the occult is the same in meaning to the different terminology in Christianity, then the dividing wall SHOULD come DOWN. If the meaning behind terminologies is NOT the same, then the dividing wall should go ahead and stay UP. But, the meanings behind the different terminologies I have shown in some cases in this debate ARE the same.

They are the same because you deliberately try to make them so. The Christian terminologies and the occult terminologies have incompatible differences in nuance and connotation. Just because they share one definition in common doesn't mean that we can ignore all the other contradictory definitions. If each word has many different connotations or nuances, and only one or a few of them overlap, we cannot call the two synonomous. Think of it like a Venn Diagram. Just because there is an overlapping area does not mean that the two circles are identical to each other.

You’re making the world black and white, and the world does not work like that.

I am stressing the black and white because you only want to see the grey.

To validate the part of occultism that I THINK the bible PROMOTES and does NOT condemn, but NOT all occultism do I seek to validate.

Why seek to validate parts of occultism, rather than bringing people from the occult to Christianity by showing them how Christianity is the proper embodiment and fulfillment of everything that is good in occultism?

A true Christian IS an occultist, just not the perverted version of occultism. And a true occultist is a Christian, just not the perverted version of Christian.

I like this here. But why maintain ties with the perverted version of occultism at all, instead of wholly embracing Christianity?

O yes of course, how did I not see this response coming? This fits what I said above; the Christian world for the most part is in ENFANTILE Christian living. Most Christians are living by their physical senses instead of training their spiritual senses and being tuned out of their physical senses. So, does God want us to live by our physical senses? Be careful now how you answer this because I’m going to trap you. If you say yes, then I will ask you why through the whole bible the opposite seams to be the truth, that the physical senses is what God is trying to damper. If you say no, then I will ask you, why don’t the ministers and priests here our prayer requests at a distance?

It's awfully polite of you to point out your trap, but it was unnecessary. God wants us to utilize both our physical and spiritual senses. However, both are currently impaired through our sin and fallen state. Yet God will ultimately restore both our physical and spiritual senses to their proper function--and indeed, the Saints are already experiencing a foretaste of this restoration of senses.

Wrong, wrong, what the magi did was astrology, NOT astronomy. The Greek lexicon which I have already showed you, clearly defines the magi as sorcerers, ASTROLOGERS, soothsayers, priests, wise men. That is NOT astronomy. How do you deal with that?

We've been over this. Astrology and astronomy were two sides of the same coin back then. Only later did they branch off into separate disciplines

 

[Shiranui117]

Well for one, you’re wrong because the word “star” in the greek is “aster” and it means “a star” . . . angel in the lexicon is NOT there.“angel’s” in the greek is “aggelos”

I know perfectly well what the words say. But you're only looking at the bare words on the page, which is your mistake. You're not going any deeper than the surface level.

Now whether the star moved or came down over the manger, I have no argument either way. But if it did come close to earth, then it would have been one small hell of a star. Also the magi were not just “curious” and so went over to check out the sight of this star, they were prepared to give gifts to Jesus and to come and worship him, they KNEW before they got to the manger that this star was Jesus star. Again, how do you deal with all this? Oh right, you can’t. That’s why your jumping all over the place.

As a matter of fact, I can deal with it. St. John Chrysostom dealt with it 1700 years ago. NPNF1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I'm going to quote some relevant sections from that:

What then do they allege? “Behold,” say they, “even when Christ was born a star appeared; which is a sign that astrology may be depended on.” How then, if He had His birth according to that law, did He put down astrology, and take away fate, and stop the mouths of demons, and cast out error, and overthrow all such sorcery?

For if ye can learn what the star was, and of what kind, and whether it were one of the common stars, or new and unlike the rest, and whether it was a star by nature or a star in appearance only, we shall easily know the other things also. Whence then will these points be manifest? From the very things that are written. Thus, that this star was not of the common sort, or rather not a star at all, as it seems at least to me, but some invisible power transformed into this appearance, is in the first place evident from its very course. For there is not, there is not any star that moves by this way, but whether it be the sun you mention, or the moon, or all the other stars, we see them going from east to west; but this was wafted from north to south; for so is Palestine situated with respect to Persia. In the second place, one may see this from the time also. For it appears not in the night, but in mid-day, while the sun is shining; and this is not within the power of a star, nay not of the moon; for the moon that so much surpasses all, when the beams of the sun appear, straightway hides herself, and vanishes away. But this by the excess of its own splendor overcame even the beams of the sun, appearing brighter than they, and in so much light shining out more illustriously.

In the third place, from its appearing, and hiding itself again. For on their way as far as Palestine it appeared leading them, but after they set foot within Jerusalem, it hid itself: then again, when they had left Herod, having told him on what account they came, and were on the point of departing, it shows itself; all which is not like the motion of a star, but of some power highly endued with reason. For it had not even any course at all of its own, but when they were to move, it moved; when to stand, it stood, dispensingall as need required: in the same kind of way as the pillar of the cloud, now halting and now rousing up the camp of the Jews, when it was needful.

In the fourth place, one may perceive this clearly, from its mode of pointing Him out. For it did not, remaining on high, point out the place; it not being possible for them so to ascertain it, but it came down and performed this office. For ye know that a spot of so small dimensions, being only as much as a shed would occupy, or rather as much as the body of a little infant would take up, could not possibly be marked out by a star. For by reason of its immense height, it could not sufficiently distinguish so confined a spot, and discover it to them that were desiring to see it. And this any one may see by the moon, which being so far superior to the stars, seems to all that dwell in the world, and are scattered over so great an extent of earth,—seems, I say, near to them every one. How then, tell me, did the star point out a spot so confined, just the space of a manger and shed, unless it left that height and came down, and stood over the very head of the young child? And at this the evangelist was hinting when he said, “Lo, the star went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.”

“And wherefore,” one may say, “did He attract them by such a vision?” Why, how should He have done? Sent prophets? But the magi would not have submitted to prophets. Uttered a voice from above? Nay, they would not have attended. Sent an angel? But even him they would have hurried by. And so for this cause dismissing all those means, God calleth them by the things that are familiar, in exceeding condescension; and He shows a large and extraordinary star, so as to astonish them, both at the greatness and beauty of its appearance, and the manner of its course. . . Think it not therefore unworthy of Him to have called them by a star; since by the same rule thou wilt find fault with all the Jewish rites also, the sacrifices, and the purifications, and the new moons, and the ark, and the temple too itself. For even these derived their origin from Gentile grossness.269 Yet for all that, God, for the salvation of them that were in error, endured to be served by these things, whereby those without were used to serve devils; only He slightly altered them; that He might draw them off by degrees from their customs, and lead them towards the highest wisdom. Just so He did in the case of the wise men also, not disdaining to call them by sight of a star, that He might lift them higher ever after. Therefore after He hath brought them, leading them by the hand, and hath set them by the manger; it is no longer by a star, but by an angel that He now discourses unto them. Thus did they by little and little become better men.

No, it’s not an end in itself, but I am dealing with one thing at a time here. The end in itself is, if you can whither a fig tree or walk on water in itself, you have discovered through direct experience a whole other level of reality and how to tap it and use it in many diverse ways for the benefit of life.

Withering a fig tree and walking on water were done by Jesus to teach us. By your later response, I can tell that you're completely missing out on what Jesus was teaching in doing those things.

There was no underlying ulterior reason for why I said “your Lord” instead of “my Lord” or “our Lord”. Yes I consider Jesus my Lord, but that is not why I said “your Lord” I said your Lord in order to make it personal for you and direct the question and make the question personal for you. Jesus, who is YOUR Lord, said we could whither fig trees, ok, don’t you take Jesus statement seriously? Surely you must since he is YOUR Lord, ok, well then, deal with my question and answer it. How do we whither fig trees? Actually you still have not answered it, instead you have asked me questions, I should have told you I won’t answer your questions until you first answer mine which I have asked you first. But instead I answered yours anyhow. So now, to my question?

I have already answered your question. I apologize for accusing you as I did.

AHUH! I got you trapped now, you’re in for it, lol, ….Ok, you said we work a miracle (whither fig tree) through faith in God, love for God and the grace of God. So if we do this, then you say even THEN we might not have the fig tree whither because God has to WILL the miracle through us, we don’t do the miracle. Your wrong, I am going to quote Jesus AGAIN, the context of this quote is that WE can do this miracle when we wish, it’s not caused BY wishing, but when we wish and do the exercise, then the miracle can happen. Here is what Jesus said in Matthew 21:18-21

Where does He say "when we wish"?

I'm going to give you a commentary on verse 21 in my study Bible which I think will help you: "While it is not recorded that an apostle literally moved a mountain, the Fathers are clear that they had this authority if the need had arisen (certain Saints did make crevices appear in mountains). . . Beyond the literal meaning, this promise is also an illustration of the power of faith and prayer in all areas of life. "Whatever we ask, without hesitation and believing in God's power, we shall receive when we ask for spiritually profitable things." -Theophan the Recluse

So Jesus is not just saying, have a mental belief,

If you think that "faith" means "a mental belief," you are very badly mistaken.

 

[Shiranui117]

You want to know the point of Jesus withering the fig tree was? He was hungry and the tree had no fruit, so he cursed it and he knew how to curse it. The disciples asked him how he did it. Here is another point of the miracle, to teach his disciples how to do this. The point is not so much the fig tree, it’s how to do this sort of thing, whether it’s a tree or something else.

I laughed out loud when I read this! Ahh, you speak of wanting to move beyond an infantile level of Christianity, yet it seems you are still in that level yourself. I'm not insulting you, I just find it incredibly endearing to see such words.

Now, if you want to understand what Jesus taught by withering the fig tree, then listen: The fig tree represents the Jews of Jesus' time who did not believe Him. They had all the outward appearances of a fruit-bearing tree; they followed the Law, prayed, and claimed to be awaiting the Messiah. The unbelieving Jews appeared to be ready to bear fruit, having put out leaves, but when they were inspected, they were found to be fruitless, and so cursed for their hypocrisy. It is the same as the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:

6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

Jesus stopped a storm, walked on water, and withered a tree. The withering the tree and walking on water does not seem to have a point (but it does) but stopping the storm seems to have more of a point, to save their life.

Jesus' walking on water and stopping the storm were to teach His disciples that He had control over nature. He was showing them a taste of His divine power. Jesus' allowing Peter to walk on the water with Him was to show the merits of cooperating with and trusting in Him, and how having true faith in God will allow one to transcend the turbulent waves and storms of this life.

And Paul elsewhere said we are being conformed into the image of Jesus, or becoming LIKE Jesus, ok, becoming like Jesus should be walking on water, withering fig trees, stopping storms, not just praying, living morally good, that’s a HALF Jesus. Paul and John said we are becoming LIKE him, not HALF like him (Romans 8:29 1 John 4:17 and Galatians 4:19).

Another reason you should look up the Orthodox teaching on theosis. You echo the teaching very well.

Ok, well, that begs another question, what if we do it with the same motive as Jesus had, then would it be egotistic?

If we do it for the spiritual benefit of others, then no, it is not egotistic, but to help our brethren in Christ. It's not a magic show done for entertainment or to puff ourselves up, but a lesson to instruct and edify those around us.

You even said in your above twisted version of lot casting that sorcery is changing (that is influencing) someone’s lot. God changed or influenced the LANDING of the lots and that fulfills sorceries definition. No matter . . . if you influence it either by sleight of hand or by real magic, that fulfills the definition of sorcery. Because sorcery is when the lot is influenced, one who influences the lot, or fate, or fortune.

Again, you're still misunderstanding. "Influencing the lot" here doesn't mean influencing how a coin lands. It means changing fate, changing the sequence of events through magic.

Nothing except to show that we need to use our own independent will and faculties that God gave us.

I've never disputed that. I think we're talking past each other at this point.

Just because you dismiss the point does not make the point invalidated. You have a prejudice against a word, that’s sad, if the word has the same meaning, or can have the same meaning, then it’s ok to use it. There should not be any dividing wall.

They have A same meaning. They do not share ALL the same meanings, nuances, usages or connotations. So no, it is not okay to use the two synonomously. To do so would be to rape the English language, and do injustice to both Christianity and occultism.

Oh you think you got me, but you really don’t, let me explain: Yes the Hebrews tents do typify the EARTHLY body, the temple typifies the HEAVENLY body (2 cor 5:1).

You're still wrong; our bodies are not antitypes of the Temple. Nowhere does St. Paul say that THE Temple in Jerusalem is a type of the heavenly body. He DOES liken our heavenly body to a mansion, though.

In addition, the Temple is destroyed not once, but twice. St. Paul says that our heavenly body will be eternal in the heavens. The Temple was not eternal; it was destroyed twice, and has been gone for nearly 2,000 years.

Yes, the invaders conquered the Israelites twice and exiled them and took over the land. But they did not take over the garden of Eden which is guarded by an angel with a flaming sword.

Irrelevant. Just give it up already; you're spinning your wheels in the mud. None of the Israelites lived in the Garden of Eden, so you cannot use the invasions of Israel and the exiling of the Israelites as a type of demons invading Heaven and stealing the saved out of God's Kingdom.

So yes, Satan can conquer souls in heaven, but not souls in the garden of Eden, in other words, there is levels to the third heaven, just as there are levels to Canaan land. Plus even if you want to say Satan went into the garden of Eden and conquered them, well, he was allowed in the garden of Eden technically in the beginning. So even if I did say he went into Eden and took the souls by making them sin, that just means he is taking land, that is the soul is the land or property of God, he stole it, it does not mean he is stealing Eden’s land. So the invaders take over the land, exile the people. Satan takes over the soul that sins, the soul is the property or land of God and when the soul sins, they get exiled away from God. Remember the bible also says that the Israelites were the inheritance of God and God was the inheritance of them.

Now you're just posting a convoluted mess of ideas and hoping that something sticks. We absolutely, positively will not sin when we are in Heaven. We find this in Revelation 21: Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Sin is the cause of all pain, all death, all sorrow and crying. You should be familiar with the Scriptural verse, "the wages of sin is death". If there will be none of these things in Heaven, then neither will there be sin, the root of these things.

That’s very hard to understand, that’s how hard. Because the stories connect, thus the typology would as well.

Not at all. Again, making it so that little children can understand: In the Exodus story, you have one setting, one storyline, and one set of characters. In the rest of the Bible, it's a different setting, story and set of characters. There's almost nothing in common between them. Yes, one comes after the other, but the only connection they have is sequence. The only character common to them both is God. None of the characters from the story of the Exodus are around once the Kingdom of Israel is established. The setting from the story of Exodus (Egypt, the Red Sea, the desert of Sinai, Jordan, Canaan) is different from the setting of Israel (completely based in the united Kingdom of Israel, and then later in the Two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah). Since neither the characters nor the setting are the same, we can't take the same meanings from Exodus' story and setting, and apply them to Israel's story and setting, because they're different. If the stories and settings are different, then the meanings that we can pull out of them are different too.

Does that make more sense?

True, but the Old Testament is also typologies.

Notice what you said: Typologies. It's not all one big typology, but many typologies.

 

[Shiranui117]

God has no form, he is Spirit, but Spirit can take on form, God can take on a PRE incarnate form, which he did with Moses. If God did not appear as a form to Moses, then God would not have talked about his back, hands and face to him. He would have just easily said “I’ll show you levels of my glory, but the fullness of my glory (face) you must not see.” That would be quite easy to understand.

Yet Moses himself said that God had no form. How do you reconcile this?

Plus, do you speak for all Jews and all Christians? I don’t think so. Even Justin Martyr one of church fathers agrees that this was a pre incarnate form of God.

Post his exact words, please, and cite them.

Plus one more thing, if you’re going to say that God only became an incarnate form at the time of Jesus, in the form of Jesus, then you’re saying in essence that Jesus (form of God) was not with the father from the beginning. Now I’m sure you don’t want to say that do you?

Jesus existed before He was incarnate, as John 1 makes clear. Do you understand either Jesus' Incarnation or the nature of the Trinity?

Ok, so if God gives an OBE, which comes with ecstasy, then it’s ok, but if we do it, it’s not ok. You’re saying the difference is in the ecstasy. Ok, well why then am I still allowed to pray if I don’t have ecstasy, but I am not allowed to induce an OBE without ecstasy?

I'm growing tired of explaining the same things to you over and over, so instead, you can go through the thread and look at the dozens of times I've explained it. You're just asking me the same questions. And I'm tired of giving you the same responses back.

It CAN be a rebellious act, but even if at a particular time it’s a rebellious act, it would still at the same time be communication with God. But, if God told you to stop praying and go do something else, and you kept praying, yea, your still communicating with God, but your rebelling at the same time. You see, it’s not ABOUT praying, it’s about being in union or ONE with God.

Being in union with God is the highest form of prayer.

So we will never sin once in heaven? You sound very sure of this, but you have no way of knowing that since you even admit free will, will still exist in heaven. And if free will exists in heaven, then the POTENTIAL to sin is still there, even if we concede that the likelihood of sinning up there is small, the potential regardless would still be there if free will is still there.

Revelation 21:4.

So therefore you cannot be so sure of this, you don’t know, if Lucifer and a third of the angelic host who were perfect in holiness and one with God, and had no sin nature and no influence of evil around them, used their will to exercise sin and rebellion against God, how can you be so sure it won’t happen again?

Because this world is imperfect, and allows for sin. The New Heaven and the New Earth will be perfect.

Also if you are 100% sure of this, then free will cannot exist in heaven in that case.

Sin actually IMPEDES our free will. There are more choices than to sin or not to sin. Even if we only choose not to sin, there are many different choices in how not to sin.

So yes, in light of that, my typology of the Israelites in Canaan land (heaven) and them rebelling and being thrown out of Canaan land (heaven) can work. Plus, I said Canaan land, I did not say Eden, which was guarded. So even in the third heaven, there are more levels, just like levels in Canaan land. Gotcha!

The Garden of Eden is not in Canaan. Gotcha.

No, the temple is OUR BODY, our body is not US, the US is our spirit IN the body. Gotcha again!

The only thing you "got" is a terrible understanding of our soul and body. We ARE our body, and we ARE our soul, and vice-versa. You don't understand our connection to our body; to you, our body is nothing more than a prison. This is why you're so fixated on OBE's, because you view the body as evil, a prison, something foreign to us. Such a view directly contradicts the fact that God created us body and soul, and called them both very good.

Yea, and my meditation about Canaan land is in line with the bible and the tradition of the church and the interpretation of the fathers, and you say yours is and mine is not. Ok, how do we figure out who’s is now?

Can you post a shred of evidence that the Fathers support your inane interpretation? It shouldn't be hard; the writings of many Church Fathers are available for free online.

You’re not being consistent, you’re contradicting yourself. Your saying Canaan land typifies heaven in the exodus but it does not once the Israelites enter the land and settle.

That is a contradiction. But you justify the contradiction by saying it’s a different story once their settled in the land. This justification is ridiculous because they’re not separate stories. A separate story would be if I went to the book store and bought two separate books, both novels of life stories of two different people who have nothing to do with each other and then read their story. But in the case of the exodus and the Israelites settling in Canaan land, it’s the SAME STORY. It’s just a continuum of that story. Think a part 1 and part 2 of a movie series vs two completely different movies.

If my elementary-school-level explanation of this doesn't help you, all I can tell you is to go take a basic literature class somewhere.

A Jew born in the united states who migrates to Canada is not a foreigner huh? Lol. That’s funny, your funny

This was back in the day BEFORE THERE WERE ISRAELITES LIVING OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL. Seriously kid, do you even read before you post?

You just contradicted yourself, you just said 1 Kings 8:41 is not a typology yet you say the church is the temple. Ok, well the church being the temple of Solomon is a typology then.

Really? I've explained this before.

I don't think it's a type of anything, but I do see a foreshadowing of the fact that the Gentiles came into the Church, which originally consisted of only Jews, because we Gentiles heard of God's great name, and of His mighty works. Solomon's prayer is still in effect today--perhaps not for the temple which he built, but certainly for the Church, which is the Body of Christ, which is the new Temple.
John 2:
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

The Church is not an antitype of the Temple. The Church (AKA the Body of Christ) is literally the Third Temple.

 

[Shiranui117]

Solomon’s temple to you is a typology of the church that the gentiles come into. Ok, so now, if the gentiles (foreigners) come into the church (temple) and the church (temple) is seated in heaven (Canaan land) then the gentiles can visit heaven.

Solomon's Temple was confined to the Kingdom of Israel, yes. But, since Christ is with us even until the end of the age (Matthew 28), and since Christ is wherever two or three are gathered in His Name, (Matthew 18:20), where He is, there is His Church. Yes, Christ is in Heaven, and so is His Church. But He is also with us wherever we are, and so is His Church.

So no, just because we're in the Church, does not mean we are in Heaven. At least, not in the sense you're thinking of.

They had more than enough time to preach every correct interpretation and refute every false one. And they probably did, they just did not write it down, they did preaching lectures verbally. But of course those aren’t going to be on record.

Actually, we have sermons from many Church Fathers. A LOT of what we have from St. John Chrysostom consists of homilies that he gave, and were written down by stenographers. They had ways of recording verbal teaching back then, and a lot of that verbal teaching we still have with us today.

Also, we cannot exhaust the meaning of Scripture, and the Fathers said as much.

Oh yea, I believe they most certainly would agree with my position. You wait and see, after you die you’re going to find out that your position on this subject is incorrect.

Your confidence is cute, but woefully uninformed.

If your going to use the analogy of the tent, you have to be consistent with everything about a tent. If the body is the tent, then the person living in the tent is the spirit, if a person can sleep and live in a tent and then leave and walk about outside the tent, then you have to be consistent with that part of the analogy and realize the soul can travel outside the tent (body). GOTTA be consistent.

Not at all. When St. Patrick used the three-leaf clover as an analogy for the Trinity, do you think he meant to say that God can be torn up and burned? No. With analogies, you deliberately call attention to a few select details to make a comparison. When you say that a boy is attracted to a girl like a moth to a flame, do you mean to say that the girl has the potential to be wild, dangerous and destructive, and that the boy is nocturnal, can fly and has a relatively short lifespan? No.

I think you would do well to revisit some of the stuff you learned in English class during grade school. Or, if you didn't learn this stuff, you can try to find some way to learn online or at your local college/university.

The body is not JUST a tent because it’s flimsy, it’s also a tent because our spirit lives IN IT but does not have to STAY in it, just like a person does not have to stay stuck in a tent 24/7.

Your opinion. The Fathers do not agree with you. I take my interpretation of St. Paul's words directly from the Fathers.

You just said a part of scripture is not inspired by saying this. You’re not being orthodox now. The bible says “all scripture is inspired of God, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16) now does it say that it’s useful for making good guesses, particularly about the silver cord? Nooooooo, it does not. But you’re saying Ecclesiastes is making a good guess. If that is the case, then it’s not inspired of God.

You are an expert at making completely absurd and unfounded conclusions. Nowhere do I say that "Scripture is useful for making good guesses". Just because a human decides to convey God's message in a specific way does not mean that his work is uninspired. To say so shows that you do not understand the nature of Scripture being inspired. It does not mean that God dictated the Bible word-for-word and people wrote it down. That's the Muslim view of their Qur'an. Instead, the inspiration of Scripture was a cooperation between God and man, with God giving the message, and man writing it down or conveying it in a manner understandable to people of the time.

When God reveals truths, he does so through experience. You think God just said “hey, you know you have a silver cord attached to your soul and body, and when you die it snaps?”

What I'm astounded at is that you claim to know so well where exactly this "silver cord" imagery even comes from. Your fixation on this point is like focusing on a few tiny pieces of tree bark and ignoring the entire forest around you.

come on, no, he or others in his day experienced and witnessed this silver cord just like astral projectors see and witness it today when they self induced an OBE. The fact he mentions the silver cord is evidence in itself they knew of this thing self induced OBErs have touted for awhile now.

You cannot use this as proof of the notion that people self-induced OBE's. Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. You're taking an insignificant detail from Ecclesiastes and missing the point of the entire book.

Also, for cripes' sake, we've gotta shorten this conversation down.

 

[Jollybear]

Hey, i read your posts, i have not responded yet because i wanted to catch up on some reading i had in line. But, i am not finished with this discussion by no means. I plan on coming back to it, and that form of teaching theosis you mentioned, i defenately want to read up on that too, you got my curiosity sparked with that. But I don't know when i will reply to your post, but i do plan on replying to it as soon as i can.

 

[Shiranui117]

Hey, i read your posts, i have not responded yet because i wanted to catch up on some reading i had in line. But, i am not finished with this discussion by no means. I plan on coming back to it, and that form of teaching theosis you mentioned, i defenately want to read up on that too, you got my curiosity sparked with that. But I don't know when i will reply to your post, but i do plan on replying to it as soon as i can.

Acknowledged, I'll definitely be looking forward to your reply. I can give you plenty of resources on theosis, including some of the writings of the Fathers; it really is one of the most beautiful teachings of Scripture.

 

[Jollybear]

Hello, shiranui, how you doing? I'm back after a long break. Are you still on here and willing to continue the discussion? I told you I would be back.

 

[Shiranui117]

Hello, shiranui, how you doing? I'm back after a long break. Are you still on here and willing to continue the discussion? I told you I would be back.

Yo Jollybear, good to see you again! I'm ready and willing to pick up where we left off. And I do want to apologize for the rude tone in my previous posts. I was getting impatient and unnecessarily snide. Forgive me, a sinner. I can boil down my previous posts to a nice, succinct thing without any nastiness, and we can continue the discussion--or, we can just start with a few main points and go from there. I imagine neither of us wants to repeat the 20,000+-character-long exchanges of last round!

I think the talking points of our conversation ultimately were:

1: The differences between self-induced out-of-body experiences, and the Christian mystical state of ecstasy
1a:The benefits of self-induced out-of-body experiences
2: The nature of Heaven vs. that of the "astral plane"
2a: The ability of mortals now to travel freely to Heaven and back, under their own power via out-of-body experiences
4: The nature of typologies identified by the Fathers and how far the similarities between types and anti-types go, as well as analogies
5: The nature of "magic," "witchcraft," "prophecy" and "divination"

You may summarize your own perspectives and main claims on the six points above, and I can do the same. Or we can pick just one of the points, and move onto the others as we either reach an agreement or an impasse.

What do you think?

 

[Jollybear]

shiranui117 Yo Jollybear, good to see you again! I'm ready and willing to pick up where we left off. And I do want to apologize for the rude tone in my previous posts. I was getting impatient and unnecessarily snide. Forgive me, a sinner.

Perfectly ok, had already overlooked it long past. Plus, it was not even that offensive to me, you did a good job in your debate skill in all honesty.

I think the talking points of our conversation ultimately were:

1: The differences between self-induced out-of-body experiences, and the Christian mystical state of ecstasy
1a:The benefits of self-induced out-of-body experiences
2: The nature of Heaven vs. that of the "astral plane"
2a: The ability of mortals now to travel freely to Heaven and back, under their own power via out-of-body experiences
4: The nature of typologies identified by the Fathers and how far the similarities between types and anti-types go, as well as analogies
5: The nature of "magic," "witchcraft," "prophecy" and "divination"

You may summarize your own perspectives and main claims on the six points above, and I can do the same. Or we can pick just one of the points, and move onto the others as we either reach an agreement or an impasse.

What do you think?

I think your 5 summaries are pretty good on what we covered over and where we left off. However, while I was gone, I was doing some more reading and thinking and came up with a list of questions. I thought of every “tough” question to give you. I have already asked some of these, but these are a summery list. Here it is as follows: Maybe you can pick one question and we can bite away at that? And then we bite away at another and so on.

1: If God created the spirit realm and Satan did not, why is it wrong or demonic to project the soul into the spirit realm?
2: If God designed the soul with abilities, how is a demon the one projecting the soul into the spirit realm?
3: If a demon is not projecting the soul, but it’s still wrong to project one self, why is it wrong?
4: If it’s wrong because God is not directly doing the projecting, but you are, what is wrong with that? We do many things in life that God is not directly making us do.
5: If it’s wrong because we are not supposed to know or find out things in that realm until after death, why so? Why is it wrong to know and find out things in this life?
6: If it’s wrong because demons live in that realm and they are grounded there and that grounding gives them a door opening to us, which could make them prone to have control over us, are we really suppose to run and fear demons? Demons can get us even if we don’t project, and if we run in fear, that shows demons got us in the area of fear. Why are we supposed to fear demons and not stand and fight as the bible tells us to?
7: If it’s wrong because of a lack of carefulness, and wrong motives, well, what if we are careful and have the right motives, why would it still be wrong then?
8: If God is Spirit, would not doing this get us closer to God since our very soul/spirit is projecting INTO the spirit realm?
9: By doing this, we have more control, so would that not mean demons would have LESS power to get us, since the other way, we are passive and just LET things happen one way or another?
10: If the soul has a silver cord connection to the body, so the essence of the spirit is still in the body, but the consciousness is transferred to an astral double, how then could a demon enter the body when you project? The body is not left truly empty. Plus, God’s our armor.
11: If it’s wrong because you think the soul could get lost in that realm, again, how could it, since there is a silver cord connection? Plus, when the body awakes, the soul returns to the body whether it wants to or not, so how could it possibly get lost?
12: If it’s wrong because it seeks an escape from this life and its experiences, how is it an escape since one projects for like only a few minutes a few times a week and all the rest of our experiences deal with this life? Thus time spent in the spirit realm is a negligible amount of time. Why not say dreams and sleeping is bad too and that it escapes wake life?
13: If astral projection is nothing but the body being asleep, the mind being awake and lucid, and then the consciousness projects out of body through imagination, what is wrong with all of that in and of itself?
14: If some people who are not Christians have this phenomenon happen to them spontaneously, who is doing that? Demons or God?
15: If some Christians have this happen to them spontaneously, and if that is God doing that, does that not show that God considers it not wrong?

 

[Shiranui117]

Perfectly ok, had already overlooked it long past. Plus, it was not even that offensive to me, you did a good job in your debate skill in all honesty.

Ahh, good. Thank you You're pretty good at working your way around obstacles and weaving in for a hit You might be great at some martial arts if that mental ability can be made physical.

I think your 5 summaries are pretty good on what we covered over and where we left off. However, while I was gone, I was doing some more reading and thinking and came up with a list of questions. I thought of every “tough” question to give you. I have already asked some of these, but these are a summery list. Here it is as follows: Maybe you can pick one question and we can bite away at that? And then we bite away at another and so on.

Sure, sounds good. I might group some numbers together, because I believe they are too intimately connected.

1: If God created the spirit realm and Satan did not, why is it wrong or demonic to project the soul into the spirit realm?

I would more say it's dangerous. Just as there are many places on this God-created Earth that it is dangerous to go (for example, the jungle, the deep recesses of the desert, Antarctica, and warzones), so also entering the spirit realm without any guidance or anyone to protect you--especially God--is also dangerous. Are there many good and awesome things you can encounter? Yes. But there are just as many bad things.

The next part of my response sort of touches on what the "spirit realm" is in the first place. Ephesians 2 describes Satan as "prince of the power of the air." This would almost seem to imply that Satan is prince of something in between Heaven and Earth--a sort of "aerial realm," if you will.

My question to you is: How do you define the spirit realm? Is it something in between Heaven and Earth, much like the aerial realm we can draw out from Ephesians 2? St. John Chrysostom says regarding Satan's title as "prince of the powers of the air":

Here again he means, that Satan occupies the space under Heaven, and that the incorporeal powers are spirits of the air, under his operation. For that his kingdom is of this age, i.e., will cease with the present age, hear what he says at the end of the Epistle; “Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against powers, against the world rulers of this darkness;” (Eph. vi. 12.) where, lest when you hear of world-rulers you should therefore say that the Devil is uncreated, he elsewhere (Gal. i. 4.) calls a perverse time, “an evil world,” not of the creatures. For he seems to me, having had dominion beneath the sky, not to have fallen from his dominion, even after his transgression.
“That now worketh,” he says, “in the sons of disobedience.”
You observe that it is not by force, nor by compulsion, but by persuasion, he wins us over; “disobedience” or “untractableness” is his word, as though one were to say, by guile and persuasion he draws all his votaries to himself. And not only does he give them a word of encouragement by telling them they have an associate, but also by ranking himself with them. . . -Source

Looking at the words of St. John Chrysostom, and taking another close look at Ephesians 2, we can see that Satan has quite a bit of control over spirits. So we can conclude that spiritual things are at least somewhat in Satan's "neighborhood", so to speak. It can be a sketchy area to just throw yourself into--hence the numerous horror stories from people about OBE's. Sometimes you get left alone by the demons lurking there, other times you get absolutely terrorized to the point where you want to just kill yourself. It depends on how our enemy wishes to seduce us into doing what he wants us to--either by making us friends of the demons and making us feel at home with them, disguising their true nature, or by baring their teeth and cowing us into despair and fear, losing control over our spiritual condition as our soul is slowly driven into madness and weakness, ripe for the picking.

So again, my question to you, what exactly is this "spirit realm"? Is it the same as the aerial realm between Heaven and Earth, or is it something different?


Questions left to discuss:
2: If God designed the soul with abilities, how is a demon the one projecting the soul into the spirit realm?
3: If a demon is not projecting the soul, but it’s still wrong to project one self, why is it wrong?
4: If it’s wrong because God is not directly doing the projecting, but you are, what is wrong with that? We do many things in life that God is not directly making us do.
5: If it’s wrong because we are not supposed to know or find out things in that realm until after death, why so? Why is it wrong to know and find out things in this life?
6: If it’s wrong because demons live in that realm and they are grounded there and that grounding gives them a door opening to us, which could make them prone to have control over us, are we really suppose to run and fear demons? Demons can get us even if we don’t project, and if we run in fear, that shows demons got us in the area of fear. Why are we supposed to fear demons and not stand and fight as the bible tells us to?
7: If it’s wrong because of a lack of carefulness, and wrong motives, well, what if we are careful and have the right motives, why would it still be wrong then?
8: If God is Spirit, would not doing this get us closer to God since our very soul/spirit is projecting INTO the spirit realm?
9: By doing this, we have more control, so would that not mean demons would have LESS power to get us, since the other way, we are passive and just LET things happen one way or another?
10: If the soul has a silver cord connection to the body, so the essence of the spirit is still in the body, but the consciousness is transferred to an astral double, how then could a demon enter the body when you project? The body is not left truly empty. Plus, God’s our armor.
11: If it’s wrong because you think the soul could get lost in that realm, again, how could it, since there is a silver cord connection? Plus, when the body awakes, the soul returns to the body whether it wants to or not, so how could it possibly get lost?
12: If it’s wrong because it seeks an escape from this life and its experiences, how is it an escape since one projects for like only a few minutes a few times a week and all the rest of our experiences deal with this life? Thus time spent in the spirit realm is a negligible amount of time. Why not say dreams and sleeping is bad too and that it escapes wake life?
13: If astral projection is nothing but the body being asleep, the mind being awake and lucid, and then the consciousness projects out of body through imagination, what is wrong with all of that in and of itself?
14: If some people who are not Christians have this phenomenon happen to them spontaneously, who is doing that? Demons or God?
15: If some Christians have this happen to them spontaneously, and if that is God doing that, does that not show that God considers it not wrong? [/quote]

 

[Windwalker]

I would more say it's dangerous. Just as there are many places on this God-created Earth that it is dangerous to go (for example, the jungle, the deep recesses of the desert, Antarctica, and warzones), so also entering the spirit realm without any guidance or anyone to protect you--especially God--is also dangerous. Are there many good and awesome things you can encounter? Yes. But there are just as many bad things.

I'm going to inject myself back into this discussion briefly here to ask this question. Can't the same thing be said about someone reading the Bible or praying even? God knows the sorts of madness people walk away from the Bible filling there heads with, killing others, killing themselves, etc.

The reality of it is that if someone is unstable to begin with, then entering into these things, entering into communion with God even, can be understood in dysfunctional ways. But this is not so for everyone. Some who enter into that Light, have guidance from within them that guides them into truth. But that person must be willing to pay the price of sacrifice to do so, otherwise if they are seeking for personal thrills, they may in fact encounter something that will terrify them, and that terrifying thing is their own self naked before them, taking on a face they are not ready or willing to actually see! And it appears as Satan to them.

So in part you're right, but it's hardly a truth for all. The truth is when someone goes into that Light, that will in fact be a solitary path. It has to be.

 

[Jollybear]

I would more say it's dangerous. Just as there are many places on this God-created Earth that it is dangerous to go (for example, the jungle, the deep recesses of the desert, Antarctica, and warzones), so also entering the spirit realm without any guidance or anyone to protect you--especially God--is also dangerous. Are there many good and awesome things you can encounter? Yes. But there are just as many bad things.

True there are dangerous places on earth if one does not have knowledge on how to dwell or walk in those places or if one does not have a guide, but there are many safe places as well. It’s the same with the spirit realm, if you have knowledge or if you have a guide (angel, God, spirit) then you will be fine. Also if you stick around the right neighborhood WITHIN the spirit realm, you will also be fine. You talked about the earth, it’s not safe to be in a warzone, well, it’s not safe to go over to the devils kingdom within the spirit realm, unless you’re going there for war or with a message or under God’s direction. But if you’re outside the devils neighborhood and in your own area, what’s dangerous about that? The whole spirit realm is not the devils domain. The devil does not own or control the whole spirit realm, just like he does not own or control the whole earth or physical realm. Or are you saying he does control the whole spirit realm?

The next part of my response sort of touches on what the "spirit realm" is in the first place. Ephesians 2 describes Satan as "prince of the power of the air." This would almost seem to imply that Satan is prince of something in between Heaven and Earth--a sort of "aerial realm," if you will.

My question to you is: How do you define the spirit realm? Is it something in between Heaven and Earth, much like the aerial realm we can draw out from Ephesians 2?

Here again he means, that Satan occupies the space under Heaven, and that the incorporeal powers are spirits of the air, under his operation.

The way I define the spirit realm is thus: it’s NOT separated from the physical universe, it’s also NOT the physical universe either, it’s ONE with the physical realm, it’s just on another frequency. The spirit realm has many layers or levels to it. Sort of like a 7 story building, there is 7 floors to it, or layers. So likewise the spirit realm has many layers or levels. These levels again are not just physical levels, but states of being. It’s both, astral(like saying physical place in appearance, but it’s not physical, it’s astral, I don’t call it physical, I call it astral matter) and a state of being. The lower regions of the spirit realm are the DARK layers and each layer has many levels as well. So the lower level is dark, but there is degrees of darkness, the lowest level is the darkest and the highest level of the dark regions is the lightest shade of the darkness, but it’s not light, it’s still dark. And then going to the next floor sort of speak it’s gets like grayish and then going higher it gets more bright and more light. And so the frequency of light is the most intense at the highest layer and then darkest at the lowest layer and then you get all shades of everything in between. And each layer also is a world in itself. When a soul goes into the lower regions, the dark regions, that soul has low energy and is typically depressed, angry, fearful, hateful, selfish, lacks love, that kind of thing. And in these lower dark regions of the spirit realm, the bottom floor of the building if ya will, is where “Satan’s” kingdom is. In other words, a person will gravitate to these lower regions without trying to just because of the state of their soul is in, anger, fear, hate, ect. It’s like what windwalker said, if the person is unstable, then going to that realm will freak them out and terrify them, and sure it will. However, for the person whose soul is in a right condition, they won’t go to these lower dark regions, they will gravitate to the higher astral realms. And if there soul is in a very high state of love, then they may gravitate to the highest realm in the astral. Some people’s souls only have a certain level of love and so they may go to a middle floor. Satan does not control the higher levels of the spirit realm. And I will go even farther by saying, Satan does not even control every soul in the darkest realms, those’ souls only gravitate there because they have become LIKE Satan, so there is a gravitation. Ever notice the same thing on earth? People who are like minded gravitate toward each other? Same thing in that realm.
So you see, using techniques to projecting your soul out of body is not what is bad or good in and of itself, it’s the state your soul is in that’s going to dictate what kind of experience you have when you’re OUT of your body. The techniques of having an OBE just help you to project and control and remember your OBE’s, that’s all they do.

Looking at the words of St. John Chrysostom, and taking another close look at Ephesians 2, we can see that Satan has quite a bit of control over spirits. So we can conclude that spiritual things are at least somewhat in Satan's "neighborhood", so to speak. It can be a sketchy area to just throw yourself into--hence the numerous horror stories from people about OBE's. Sometimes you get left alone by the demons lurking there, other times you get absolutely terrorized to the point where you want to just kill yourself. It depends on how our enemy wishes to seduce us into doing what he wants us to--either by making us friends of the demons and making us feel at home with them, disguising their true nature, or by baring their teeth and cowing us into despair and fear, losing control over our spiritual condition as our soul is slowly driven into madness and weakness, ripe for the picking.

If one does see a demon when they project, they should do one of three things, they could do all three really. They can either examine themselves to see what sinful state there soul may be in, because demons are like cockroaches, they gravitate toward filth and filth is the sin and sin is that darkness. Two, they can shout and tell the demon to leave and fight him. And three, ignore him and carry on with your experience, because energy follows thought, so if you ignore him, he will lose energy.

So again, my question to you, what exactly is this "spirit realm"? Is it the same as the aerial realm between Heaven and Earth, or is it something different?

The spirit realm consists of heaven, aerial realm and earth. They are together, just on different frequencies. Heaven is the highest layers and the aerial is the between levels and the earth is another between and “hell” is the lowest regions. And there is many layers in between all of these, many shades of grey sort of speak.

 

[Shiranui117]

True there are dangerous places on earth if one does not have knowledge on how to dwell or walk in those places or if one does not have a guide, but there are many safe places as well. It’s the same with the spirit realm, if you have knowledge or if you have a guide (angel, God, spirit) then you will be fine. Also if you stick around the right neighborhood WITHIN the spirit realm, you will also be fine. You talked about the earth, it’s not safe to be in a warzone, well, it’s not safe to go over to the devils kingdom within the spirit realm, unless you’re going there for war or with a message or under God’s direction. But if you’re outside the devils neighborhood and in your own area, what’s dangerous about that? The whole spirit realm is not the devils domain. The devil does not own or control the whole spirit realm, just like he does not own or control the whole earth or physical realm. Or are you saying he does control the whole spirit realm?

Fair. I suppose you and I do have different definitions of what the "spirit realm" means. For the sake of discussion, I'll operate under your definition--though I might suggest a few clarifications.

The way I define the spirit realm is thus: it’s NOT separated from the physical universe, it’s also NOT the physical universe either, it’s ONE with the physical realm, it’s just on another frequency. The spirit realm has many layers or levels to it. Sort of like a 7 story building, there is 7 floors to it, or layers. So likewise the spirit realm has many layers or levels. These levels again are not just physical levels, but states of being. It’s both, astral(like saying physical place in appearance, but it’s not physical, it’s astral, I don’t call it physical, I call it astral matter) and a state of being. The lower regions of the spirit realm are the DARK layers and each layer has many levels as well. So the lower level is dark, but there is degrees of darkness, the lowest level is the darkest and the highest level of the dark regions is the lightest shade of the darkness, but it’s not light, it’s still dark. And then going to the next floor sort of speak it’s gets like grayish and then going higher it gets more bright and more light. And so the frequency of light is the most intense at the highest layer and then darkest at the lowest layer and then you get all shades of everything in between. And each layer also is a world in itself. When a soul goes into the lower regions, the dark regions, that soul has low energy and is typically depressed, angry, fearful, hateful, selfish, lacks love, that kind of thing. And in these lower dark regions of the spirit realm, the bottom floor of the building if ya will, is where “Satan’s” kingdom is. In other words, a person will gravitate to these lower regions without trying to just because of the state of their soul is in, anger, fear, hate, ect. It’s like what windwalker said, if the person is unstable, then going to that realm will freak them out and terrify them, and sure it will. However, for the person whose soul is in a right condition, they won’t go to these lower dark regions, they will gravitate to the higher astral realms. And if there soul is in a very high state of love, then they may gravitate to the highest realm in the astral. Some people’s souls only have a certain level of love and so they may go to a middle floor. Satan does not control the higher levels of the spirit realm. And I will go even farther by saying, Satan does not even control every soul in the darkest realms, those’ souls only gravitate there because they have become LIKE Satan, so there is a gravitation. Ever notice the same thing on earth? People who are like minded gravitate toward each other? Same thing in that realm.

The spirit realm consists of heaven, aerial realm and earth. They are together, just on different frequencies. Heaven is the highest layers and the aerial is the between levels and the earth is another between and “hell” is the lowest regions. And there is many layers in between all of these, many shades of grey sort of speak.

I would also agree with what Windwalker said about instability being a potentially huge cause of trouble. And to your description above, I would suggest a few clarifying points here:

1: The spirits that Satan controls are the demons.
2: The human souls that have become like Satan have, to one extent or another, fallen under his influence and manipulation.
3: There aren't necessarily "elevators" in this seven-story building--i.e. one cannot simply hop on an elevator, press a button, and walk out the door in Heaven. I don't believe it's that simple, as per Luke 16:

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
4: In order to even visit Heaven or have a glimpse of Heavenly things, this would need to be the work of God, not ourselves.

Satan and the demons certainly don't even have the edge of a toenail in Heaven, though I would still posit that the aerial realm is Satan's domain, per the Scriptures. I don't believe he any longer has any foothold Hades, where the dead sojourn. He's been driven out of Heaven and made powerless in Hades, and he has never had any power in Hell (I assume you mean the place of the damned?)--that means he has only two possible areas of operation left to him: Earth, and the aerial realm.

So you see, using techniques to projecting your soul out of body is not what is bad or good in and of itself, it’s the state your soul is in that’s going to dictate what kind of experience you have when you’re OUT of your body. The techniques of having an OBE just help you to project and control and remember your OBE’s, that’s all they do.

I suppose this leads into the next question of, which techniques? I would posit the gift of ecstasy.

If one does see a demon when they project, they should do one of three things, they could do all three really. They can either examine themselves to see what sinful state there soul may be in, because demons are like cockroaches, they gravitate toward filth and filth is the sin and sin is that darkness. Two, they can shout and tell the demon to leave and fight him. And three, ignore him and carry on with your experience, because energy follows thought, so if you ignore him, he will lose energy.

I would rather posit immediate prayer and rebuking the demon in the name of the Lord and with the sign of the cross--don't attempt to fight a demon. That's pride and aggression that's playing right into his hands, in turn making it stronger. The other thing I'd suggest doing if this was an OBE I myself had done is, abort! Pull the eject cord! Get back to my body and get out of there! Much better safe than sorry.

 

[Windwalker]

3: There aren't necessarily "elevators" in this seven-story building--i.e. one cannot simply hop on an elevator, press a button, and walk out the door in Heaven.

Actually, that's not true. Forgive me for trying to ramp this up a notch in understanding beyond simply bantering back and forth personal interpretations of the Bible and speculations about these things. Let me speak from personal experience, and put them in less mythological terms, though I may choose to use them as a vehicle to try to express these things if it helps.

To experience "Heaven", which you can call Union with God, the nondual, Christ Consciousness, Satori, Nirvana, etc, can happen at any moment without warning. These are common in fact. They are what you can call "peak experiences". They are states of consciousness that open you to Reality, or Heaven instantly. In fact, that state exists within us at all times, which is the reason it can open to us instantly "by accident", as it were. When they happen it becomes overwhelmingly clear, and undeniably apparent that you were never separate from this.

But then it subsides as you pull back into your "normal" state of consciousness, yet with this knowledge of that which is "beyond", which has the effect of acting as an agent on your 'normal' state of consciousness as a sort of attractor to "come up hither", so to speak. It works towards you growing in your "normal" state of consciousness to transform permanently into "the mind of Christ" as your "normal" state of consciousness. The latter is a growth process, the former is an "accident", so to speak. The latter is something you do, but you do so by "obedience to Christ", so to speak, by repeatedly, as an exercise "fixing you mind of that which is above", by repeated exposure to the mind of God.

So in this sense you are right, you can't just move from one position in you life and mind to "Heaven" instantaneously, because that is a growth process. But it is not correct to say that someone cannot instantly be "transported" to heaven. I have, and this happens regularly through the practice of meditation. It is actually very easy to open to God and experience "Heaven".

You also learn it is not God that withholds it from you, but rather you discover that God is simply just "waiting" for you do be done doing whatever that is that keeps you from accepting what was yours the whole time. This is a lesson repeated constantly and becomes abundantly aware in our encounters with God. Through intention without expectation, you put yourself in the position to receive what you've had the whole time.

4: In order to even visit Heaven or have a glimpse of Heavenly things, this would need to be the work of God, not ourselves.

In a sense of the word, yes. Our egos cannot produce or manufacture the eternal. But it does require our participation in through an act of will, laying down the ego which draws our gaze to itself and not see what is God in all the world and ourselves. You don't, nor can manipulate God. But you are in fact supposed to control and discipline yourself to allow God; to allow that which is in you from the beginning.

But it is not something you just sit and hope God with just "do for you". That is an incorrect approach, and itself is stuck looking at the ego, seeing God as up there and you down here, and that view will keep you constricted. Instead, you need to open yourself. And that act of opening, is the work you must learn, and as you do, you will see and know God, not as you imagine or speculate in your reasoning mind, but in the every living presence of Mind that is in all things.

I'll leave it at this for your response.

 

[Shiranui117]

Actually, that's not true. Forgive me for trying to ramp this up a notch in understanding beyond simply bantering back and forth personal interpretations of the Bible and speculations about these things. Let me speak from personal experience, and put them in less mythological terms, though I may choose to use them as a vehicle to try to express these things if it helps.

To experience "Heaven", which you can call Union with God, the nondual, Christ Consciousness, Satori, Nirvana, etc, can happen at any moment without warning. These are common in fact. They are what you can call "peak experiences". They are states of consciousness that open you to Reality, or Heaven instantly. In fact, that state exists within us at all times, which is the reason it can open to us instantly "by accident", as it were. When they happen it becomes overwhelmingly clear, and undeniably apparent that you were never separate from this.

But then it subsides as you pull back into your "normal" state of consciousness, yet with this knowledge of that which is "beyond", which has the effect of acting as an agent on your 'normal' state of consciousness as a sort of attractor to "come up hither", so to speak. It works towards you growing in your "normal" state of consciousness to transform permanently into "the mind of Christ" as your "normal" state of consciousness. The latter is a growth process, the former is an "accident", so to speak. The latter is something you do, but you do so by "obedience to Christ", so to speak, by repeatedly, as an exercise "fixing you mind of that which is above", by repeated exposure to the mind of God.

So in this sense you are right, you can't just move from one position in you life and mind to "Heaven" instantaneously, because that is a growth process. But it is not correct to say that someone cannot instantly be "transported" to heaven. I have, and this happens regularly through the practice of meditation. It is actually very easy to open to God and experience "Heaven".

You also learn it is not God that withholds it from you, but rather you discover that God is simply just "waiting" for you do be done doing whatever that is that keeps you from accepting what was yours the whole time. This is a lesson repeated constantly and becomes abundantly aware in our encounters with God. Through intention without expectation, you put yourself in the position to receive what you've had the whole time.

In a sense of the word, yes. Our egos cannot produce or manufacture the eternal. But it does require our participation in through an act of will, laying down the ego which draws our gaze to itself and not see what is God in all the world and ourselves. You don't, nor can manipulate God. But you are in fact supposed to control and discipline yourself to allow God; to allow that which is in you from the beginning.

But it is not something you just sit and hope God with just "do for you". That is an incorrect approach, and itself is stuck looking at the ego, seeing God as up there and you down here, and that view will keep you constricted. Instead, you need to open yourself. And that act of opening, is the work you must learn, and as you do, you will see and know God, not as you imagine or speculate in your reasoning mind, but in the every living presence of Mind that is in all things.

I'll leave it at this for your response.

A good point, and this gets into a confusing part of Christian nomenclature.

There is Heaven the state, which you describe, and which will be experienced by all the blessed at the Last Judgement, and there is Heaven the place, which is the dwelling of God and the angels, that transcends our world. When I speak of Heaven in the context of a location, I mean the place, not the state. But your description of the state is absolutely correct--especially that we can already experience a taste of the state of Heaven here on earth.

You are also right that experiencing ecstasy isn't something we just wait around for--though God can bestow this state on anyone at any time. More often, as you said, ecstasy is the result of opening oneself up to God, cooperating with Him and cultivating a relationship with Him, and as you grow closer to God, God grows closer to you, and as you purify yourself, you are more ready and open and sensitive to receive the gifts of God.

 

[Jollybear]

1: The spirits that Satan controls are the demons.

For the most part, yes, but individual demons also have their own wills. But yes, they submit their wills to Satan as there king.

2: The human souls that have become like Satan have, to one extent or another, fallen under his influence and manipulation.

I agree, just want to clarify that they still also have their own wills, so they can renounce his influence at any time.

3: There aren't necessarily "elevators" in this seven-story building--i.e. one cannot simply hop on an elevator, press a button, and walk out the door in Heaven. I don't believe it's that simple, as per Luke 16:

I agree it’s not easy to go from one level to the next, I did not mean to make it look like it was easy, I was just trying to paint a picture of what it’s sort of like, as in the levels, the highest are the brightest and the lowest are the darkest and everything in between is shades. There are no literal elevators and it’s not a literal building. Scripture says “the path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, getting ever so brighter till the full light of day.”(proverbs 4:18). So, true it’s not easy to go to the next level, it takes work, repentance and transformation.

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

Notice though that this chasm was BEFORE Christ’s work on the cross and resurrection? After Christ’s finished work, he broke that chasm. Plus, that chasm is only a symbol for separation from God. That chasm is like sin that blocks our way. And notice the rich man asks for mercy? Asking for mercy is like asking for justice to be thwarted, so this man in his heart did not TRULY believe he deserved to be in this place and that is what KEPT him in that place. Notice the criminal on the cross with Jesus, one said that he was getting what he deserved and that his punishment was just, but the other criminal kept mocking and saying to save them and get them off the cross. Jesus said to the criminal who recognized his just sentence that he would come into paradise. Also, the rich man kept ARGUING with Abraham, after Abraham mentioned the chasm, the rich man says “Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them. No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” So notice the rich man is not just indirectly showing that he does not deserve to be in this place of torment, but he is also disagreeing with Abraham, he is indirectly devaluing Moses and the prophets and is thinking that repentance is easy and takes no effort if they see a miracle. In other words, this rich man in hell still does not “GET IT”. And THAT is why the chasm was fixed, it was fixed as long as he kept staying in that state of mind. His sin was his chasm. Jesus was saying this story before he paid for sin, that is the chasm.