astral projection is biblical

[Jollybear]

I want to talk to a Christian or a Jew about astral projection. Why do you think it's demonic? Why do you think God does not aprove of the practice of astral projection via meditation techniques? What is your scriptural evidence and logical argument that astral projection is wrong? Currently I am convinced it's not wrong or demonic from scripture, but am open to debate it and be convinced otherwise. And i hope i got this question in the right section of the forum, not sure. But either case, here it is.

For those who don't know, astral projection is the means of having out of body experiences through meditation and mind work.

 

[Shiranui117]

There is always inherent danger when doing a spiritual practice that is not focused on God, done in cooperation with God.

And for the record, when I say "spiritual practice" in this topic, I'm not talking something like Buddhist meditation, which is simply cultivating awareness, and firmly grounded in safe waters. I'm talking something like inducing visions, having astral projection, going into a trance, stuff like that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Most of the arguments against astral projection can be found in Watchman Nee's book The Spiritual Man. I think astral projection is a bunch of made up garbage, but you can study the basis for Evangelical-Christian arguments about the dangers of astral projection. It can be lumped in with discourses about driving out demons, battling fallen angels physically. Yes, almost anything that makes for exciting reading. In general all Christian authors who claim astral-projection is demonic are selling multiple forgeries, doing healing services, selling books, and collecting money 'for God's work.'

 

[Shiranui117]

In general all Christian authors who claim astral-projection is demonic are selling multiple forgeries, doing healing services, selling books, and collecting money 'for God's work.'

Perhaps among the Evangelicals and the types of Christians wont to do the kinds of things that you describe. But those types are a very tiny minority among Christians, and quite along the fringes as well.

 

[Levite]

I want to talk to a Christian or a Jew about astral projection. Why do you think it's demonic? Why do you think God does not aprove of the practice of astral projection via meditation techniques? What is your scriptural evidence and logical argument that astral projection is wrong? Currently I am convinced it's not wrong or demonic from scripture, but am open to debate it and be convinced otherwise. And i hope i got this question in the right section of the forum, not sure. But either case, here it is.

For those who don't know, astral projection is the means of having out of body experiences through meditation and mind work.

We don't think it's demonic.

Actually, I'm not sure how much mention there is of it at all in Jewish tradition. There are a couple of texts I can think of that-- if (and it's a big if) what they're referring to is really a kind of astral projection-- actually seem to imply it's among the potential abilities that high-level Kabbalistic masters (Jewish mystics) may attain.

But even if not, there is certainly nothing to suggest that it is inherently wrong, evil, or not permitted.

 

[Windwalker]

There is always inherent danger when doing a spiritual practice that is not focused on God, done in cooperation with God.

This is tricky water to navigate in discussion. When someone says "focused on God", that may not always apply to all spiritual practices, such as you cited in mentioning Buddhist meditation. But how does this make it an "inherent danger"? And what is that danger, specifically? And on what basis is that considered a danger?

I can talk at some length on this, but I would say having God as the mental focus most definitely does not guarantee someone safety! There are those who should not practice meditation, such as those who have mental health issues such as clinical depression or borderline personalities, at least not without trained supervision to keep them stable. I can tell you, you need to have a relatively stable psyche to enter into the deeper places of mind and spirit, as your mind can misinterpret, mistranslated what is opened to you there. People who have schizophrenia, are very much focused on God, but it leads to dysfunction in their lives. So God being the focus, by no means guarantees one safety.

These are the only dangers that I could cite. But that's not the dangers I've heard spoken of when certain non-experienced individuals simply imagine "it's dangerous". They imagine things like demonic possession, and other fearful things. And any biblical references I've heard they cite to support this fear, are really reading into the text that fear without basis, other than it is unknown to them, and therefore scary.

And for the record, when I say "spiritual practice" in this topic, I'm not talking something like Buddhist meditation, which is simply cultivating awareness, and firmly grounded in safe waters.

Believe me, Buddhist meditation is more than just about creating focus. That awareness opens them up to the same sort of things that the topic describes in speaking of "astral projection". This cultivation of awareness is the result of such practices, and that awareness is that of spiritual realities. What can easily be called God, and rightly so.

I want to say a word to what people call "astral projection". Technically, out of body experiences (OBD), is not astral projection. They are just OBDs. That term astral, simply refers to the 'domain' of the spiritual, represented by things like spirits and angels and whatnot. To astral project, simply means the 'higher mind', enters into that domain. You are 'projecting' your consciousness into the spiritual realms. This is in another term, subtle-level experiences. I have subtle-level experience all the time in meditation, and in no way is that "demonic". Those who say so typically speak out of fear and ignorance, or they may have encountered something in themselves the frightened them, and it took on some fearful aspect (that's confronting your personal shadow, it's you putting a scary mask on that part of yourself saying "don't look at me", grrrrr, go away, be afraid!, etc.), and wasn't ready to deal with what their subconscious mind was trying to show them.

I recommend reading this short explaination of the stages of meditation, and I will tell you they are pretty universal, regardless of ones religion or symbols sets they use: Stages of Meditation | Integral Life

Again, the 'astral plane', or 'astral projection' is really referring to the Subtle-Level experience of meditation. OBDs are distinctly just that, though people conflate the terms together in common use.

I'm talking something like inducing visions, having astral projection, going into a trance, stuff like that.

I have visions all the time in meditation. What's bad about this? And on what basis do you imagine it is? I can tell you from experience, it's profoundly life altering in ways that deepen my experience of God in every aspect of my life, making me far more aware of myself and others, more patient, compassionate, intuitive, and all around spiritual in every way possible. Every single one of these fruits of the spirit list from the Bible, "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control," are enormously cultivated in my life in ways that just being in my own thoughts can never bring to bear.

So, on what basis does someone say these are wrong, when the fruits they bear speak otherwise? "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". "A house divided among itself cannot stand".

Your thoughts?

 

[Jollybear]

There is always inherent danger when doing a spiritual practice that is not focused on God, done in cooperation with God.

Ok, God created the spirit realm just like he did the physical realm. Well in the physical realm we do things all the time without God as the focus and without cooperation from God. When we walk down the street, or when we cook breakfast, or when we clean the house, those are all natural things done in the physical realm, yet we don't focus on God or get God's "leading" when we do those things, we just do them. And 'just doing them' is not evil or good, it's just doing stuff, if anything it would be good. Like if you go up a mountain for a hike, just to explore, is that evil? Of course not, now if you don't do it, is it evil? Obviously not, it's neither good nor evil, but if we were to pick one, it would be good, cause your having fun and exploring, enjoying the experience that God provided for you to potentially have.

Well would it not be the same with the spirit world? God created it, he created your visual mind and your immagination and your spirit and soul and the ability to dream and lucid dream and through that project out of your body. So what would be so evil about it? If your motive is not to use it for evil, but just to "explore" what's so evil about it? And if you use the argument, well it's not focusing on God, then what if i said the focus can be on God just by exploring and learning and experiencing the world he made and in that light we glorify him through it. Or lets say i start praising God while i am projected in the spirit realm? My focus is on God then, is it not?

I mean if we have to get God's "leading" to project or have an out of body experience, then would it not be the same with other devotional things, like prayer? I could not pray unless I FEEL God prompting me to pray? You see the absurdity in that? If we wer waiting for God to lead us to pray, we would not discapline ourselves and pray. So what if God is ALWAYS leading us to engage and practice our full spiritual potential, such as prayer, but not just prayer, but astral projection, mind work, ect.

And for the record, when I say "spiritual practice" in this topic, I'm not talking something like Buddhist meditation, which is simply cultivating awareness, and firmly grounded in safe waters. I'm talking something like inducing visions, having astral projection, going into a trance, stuff like that.

Why is inducing visions not safe? If i close my eyes and think of a landscape of trees and land and a sun set, that is a vision, how is that unsafe for me to do that? How is inducing astral projection and travel unsafe? Trance as well? What makes it unsafe? That God is not the focus, that it's not done with his "leading" or cooperation? The same could be said of me cleaning my house or making eggs for breakfast, God did not "lead me" and i am not focusing on God when i do those things perse, so i gauss those things must be "unsafe" to do then because God is not focused on? Or when i pray when i don't feel God's prompting, that must be unsafe then? You get the picture of where i am going?

Also I would like scriptural support from you that astral projection is disaproved by God as well if you would.

 

[Jollybear]

Also if you say it's unsafe because their demons in the spirit realm and they can getcha, well let me tell you, you don't have to go in the spirit realm for demons to come after you, they can do that just as easy while your going about life in your body, being inside your body is not armor against demons, so what difference does it make whether your in or out of your body in regards to your existence being safe or unsafe against demonic attacks?

 

[Jollybear]

Most of the arguments against astral projection can be found in Watchman Nee's book The Spiritual Man. I think astral projection is a bunch of made up garbage, but you can study the basis for Evangelical-Christian arguments about the dangers of astral projection. It can be lumped in with discourses about driving out demons, battling fallen angels physically. Yes, almost anything that makes for exciting reading. In general all Christian authors who claim astral-projection is demonic are selling multiple forgeries, doing healing services, selling books, and collecting money 'for God's work.'

Astral projection is not made up garbage, i know for certain because i had an out of body experience. It's not made up, it's very real, just as real as your everyday waking normal life. If you Don't believe it, just do the techniques in order to induce one and you'l see for yourself that's it's real.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Astral projection is not made up garbage, i know for certain because i had an out of body experience. It's not made up, it's very real, just as real as your everyday waking normal life. If you Don't believe it, just do the techniques in order to induce one and you'l see for yourself that's it's real.

I will seriously consider it provided that it doesn't involve releasing conscious control of my awareness. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jollybear]

I will seriously consider it provided that it doesn't involve releasing conscious control of my awareness. Thanks for the info.

When you say releasing conscious control of your arareness, if i understand you correctly, i think you mean and are wondering if you astral project will you lose control of the experience? And if that is what your wondering, then it depends, if you control your thoughts, what you visualize, what you imagine, then you won't lose control. Pretty much, if you induce comming out of your body, that means you have allready fairly achieved mind control, so after your out of your body, you will already have a good level of control of your mind, thoughts and imagination, so you will be fine at that point. But keep in mind, sometimes the spirit realm has a little bit of a mind of it's own as well, but it's nothing too crazy that you won't be able to handle. Like their is different planes or levels within the spirit world or astral planes, each plain will make it appear like things are different. But when you first come out of your body you will be on the real time zone plane, so things will look like they would as if you were in your body, just you would be out of your body.

Basically, you will be fine, nothing to worry about for the most part that is.

 

[Windwalker]

I will seriously consider it provided that it doesn't involve releasing conscious control of my awareness. Thanks for the info.

If you think about this, you release this every night you go to sleep. Sweet dreams.

 

[Shiranui117]

Ok, God created the spirit realm just like he did the physical realm. Well in the physical realm we do things all the time without God as the focus and without cooperation from God. When we walk down the street, or when we cook breakfast, or when we clean the house, those are all natural things done in the physical realm, yet we don't focus on God or get God's "leading" when we do those things, we just do them. And 'just doing them' is not evil or good, it's just doing stuff, if anything it would be good. Like if you go up a mountain for a hike, just to explore, is that evil? Of course not, now if you don't do it, is it evil? Obviously not, it's neither good nor evil, but if we were to pick one, it would be good, cause your having fun and exploring, enjoying the experience that God provided for you to potentially have.

Are the things of the spiritual realm like the things of the physical? Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that the spiritual is just like the physical, and ascending through myriads of different spiritual planes is like walking to the store?

Well would it not be the same with the spirit world? God created it, he created your visual mind and your immagination and your spirit and soul and the ability to dream and lucid dream and through that project out of your body. So what would be so evil about it? If your motive is not to use it for evil, but just to "explore" what's so evil about it? And if you use the argument, well it's not focusing on God, then what if i said the focus can be on God just by exploring and learning and experiencing the world he made and in that light we glorify him through it. Or lets say i start praising God while i am projected in the spirit realm? My focus is on God then, is it not?

Many Saints did indeed have what you would call "astral projection" and visions. But those were gifts from God, and usually after leading lives of prayer and asceticism for decades.

I mean if we have to get God's "leading" to project or have an out of body experience, then would it not be the same with other devotional things, like prayer? I could not pray unless I FEEL God prompting me to pray? You see the absurdity in that? If we wer waiting for God to lead us to pray, we would not discapline ourselves and pray. So what if God is ALWAYS leading us to engage and practice our full spiritual potential, such as prayer, but not just prayer, but astral projection, mind work, ect.

It wouldn't be. Because for one, prayer is communication with God, and God's always ready to talk with us and work with us.

Why is inducing visions not safe? If i close my eyes and think of a landscape of trees and land and a sun set, that is a vision, how is that unsafe for me to do that?

So by "visions", you mean daydream? I beg your pardon. I thought we were talking about something on a completely different level.

How is inducing astral projection and travel unsafe? Trance as well? What makes it unsafe? That God is not the focus, that it's not done with his "leading" or cooperation?

Yes, precisely. Whenever we are doing anything spiritual, we do it for the sake of growing closer to God, for listening to Him, for speaking with Him, for interceding before Him on behalf of others, for finding rest and comfort in Him, for seeking His blessings. Doing it for any other reason is badly missing the point.

The same could be said of me cleaning my house or making eggs for breakfast, God did not "lead me" and i am not focusing on God when i do those things perse, so i gauss those things must be "unsafe" to do then because God is not focused on?

Were you not paying attention when I said "spiritual practice"? The physical is not like the spiritual.

Or when i pray when i don't feel God's prompting, that must be unsafe then? You get the picture of where i am going?

Prayer is, by default, done in cooperation with God, with God as the focus. Praying to God is never unsafe. Are you trying to twist my words around?

Also I would like scriptural support from you that astral projection is disaproved by God as well if you would.

You're again misinterpreting me. Astral projection should never be the goal of a spiritual practice, otherwise we've missed the entire point of spiritual practice in the first place. The point of spiritual practice is to grow closer to God and deepen our relationship with Him, not to flex our spiritual muscles.

 

[Windwalker]

Are the things of the spiritual realm like the things of the physical? Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that the spiritual is just like the physical, and ascending through myriads of different spiritual planes is like walking to the store?

I know this isn't directed at me, but I'll offer my thoughts from my perception if it's of any help. I personally don't look at the spiritual as some separate plane of reality. It is just an awareness of this reality we simply can't see with the "normal" state of consciousness we presently are embedded within. In other words, it's right here, right now. It's simply a matter of pulling back the veil of the flesh, so to speak, and seeing.

Is this "just like the physical"? Let's put it this way. Is the mental world inside our heads where we think about the future and the past, "just like the physical"? No. It's a mental landscape full of symbols representing our thoughts about the physical world. But not just that either. It's also about a conceptual world of things not yet seen or realized without any physical correlates. We think about relationships, for one thing, which are not physical, but mind to mind interactions. We think about values, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. Show me a 'hope' sitting on the ground you can pick up and touch, for instance.

The spiritual is not some physical-like realm you entered into like passing through a worm-hole into an alternative universe. Not at all. It is the living, vital essence of all that is, everywhere in everything, radiant, present, now. If one is able to expose it to their mind and spirit, it inhabits them. And in this sense we navigate the spiritual world, which is the one that is already now.

The kingdom of God is here, within you, not in the sky, at the end of the wormhole, or somewhere over the rainbow, way up high.

Many Saints did indeed have what you would call "astral projection" and visions. But those were gifts from God, and usually after leading lives of prayer and asceticism for decades.

And only these "special people" can have these gifts? Aren't you special too? You know that "saints" are only people like you or me, that an organized body years down the road afterwards, typically, chooses to make into an icon to symbolize them as embodying some ideal of the church? They are those who typical attain a high degree of spiritual awareness within their lives. That's just as much available to them as any human alive. It's really your choice for that path, or not. If your intention is present, the gift is there. If we don't receive it, it is us withholding ourselves from it. This is speaking from experience. A saint, would wish you to be one too.

I will agree that it does require a life of devotion, or deep intention and practice to integrate the truly spiritual into a fully realized life. But I very much disagree the path to that is through asceticism, or that it has to take decades! How long, is really a matter of where we are at with our 'pliability', so to speak. Now asceticism in fact is a poor path towards that in this life, as it is missing the point of "denying the world". It's an anemic path that in many regards misses the real area of focus, which is our attachments to the things of the world, to objects we cling to, be they material, emotional, ideological, etc. Our physical bodies are not bad! And whipping and denying them misses the point, it avoids looking at the source of our barriers to the spiritual within us. A truly spiritual life inhabits the body! It involves and integrates the whole individual.

A truly integrated spirituality embraces the world. "You are in the world, but not 'of' the world", says Jesus. You are free to move about within the world, but not possessed, nor mastered by it. You become Master, as opposed to mastered.

It wouldn't be. Because for one, prayer is communication with God, and God's always ready to talk with us and work with us.

I prefer to recognize it as communion. It may or may not involve talk. Haven't you experienced this with a deep human relationship, where you simple sit together sharing without words, inhabiting the same space? That's communion. It goes beyond words. And that to me, is what prayer is in its deepest sense. Simply Being with God.


Anyway, I'd enjoy your feedback to these thoughts and the others I offered earlier. In no way, of course am I trying to dissuade or discourage you. But I can address these points with clarity, as they are very much part of my knowledge and experience.

 

[Jollybear]

Are the things of the spiritual realm like the things of the physical? Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that the spiritual is just like the physical, and ascending through myriads of different spiritual planes is like walking to the store?

The physical and spiritual realms are the same in the sense they are both created by God, but they are different in the sense, that they are two different realms and navigation within those realms are different and the atoms and neutrinos that make up each realm would be flowing at different rates. But just because their different, why would that make one OK to navigate in and the other not ok? My car is different than my house, but both are ok to go inside.

Many Saints did indeed have what you would call "astral projection" and visions. But those were gifts from God, and usually after leading lives of prayer and asceticism for decades.

Theirs three groups of people in the bible, and in life; one that God sovereignty gave experiences too, two those that prayed and sought God and read his law and word and lived for him and thirdly, those who TRAINED their senses. This third one might raise your eye brow, but bear with me, they are there and we will get to them.

It wouldn't be. Because for one, prayer is communication with God, and God's always ready to talk with us and work with us.

What if the motive for astral projection was to communicate with God on a sharper level? What would you say then? Plus, if I go to the gym in the physical realm and exercise my muscles that God gave me, but not for the purpose of getting closer to him, just to use and keep healthy the body God gave me, there’s nothing wrong with that, well why would it be any different with our spiritual muscles? Just to grow and learn and explore in the spirit realm, what’s wrong with that?

So by "visions", you mean daydream? I beg your pardon. I thought we were talking about something on a completely different level.

Let me put it like this. If a daydream, which is a controled dream is not bad, and a lucid dream at night, which is just a day dream while asleep that you control, if that’s also not bad, and if imagining coming out of your body AFTER the lucid dream which causes one to POP out of their body is not bad, what would be so bad about the actual POPING out?

Yes, precisely. Whenever we are doing anything spiritual, we do it for the sake of growing closer to God, for listening to Him, for speaking with Him, for interceding before Him on behalf of others, for finding rest and comfort in Him, for seeking His blessings. Doing it for any other reason is badly missing the point.

If I clean the house, make breakfast, get a shower, go to work, go to the gym workout, spend time with wife, play with the cat, all those things are in the physical realm, but if I don’t do it while focusing on God, or if I don’t do it to get closer to God, their does not seem nothing inherently wrong with that, I am just entering into experiences in the physical realm that God provided and created, so why would it be any different with the spirit realm? If I explore that realm, not focusing on God or trying to get closer to him, just explore and enter into the full experience that he provided through creating that realm and creating the capabilities within us to astral project, what would be so wrong about it? If anything, just entering into the full experience of life, both in the physical and spiritual realms that God provided, whether the motive was to get closer to him or just explore and learn, just by experiencing, that in itself would it not bring us closer to God since we are embracing what he provided and created? We are not worshiping his creation. Plus my other point, what if we used it with the motive TOO GET CLOSER to God? What would you say then?

Were you not paying attention when I said "spiritual practice"? The physical is not like the spiritual.

True the spirit realm is different than the physical realm, and your point is? Just because the spirit realm is different than the physical, why does that mean it’s OK to experience things in the physical realm without GOD GIVING the OK to do so, but for the spirit realm, we have to wait for his every OK move forward now, or don’t?

Prayer is, by default, done in cooperation with God, with God as the focus. Praying to God is never unsafe. Are you trying to twist my words around?

If I pray for things God does not want me to bring up, then that in essence would be called praying while not being in cooperation with God, so would that be UNSAFE, using your logic, it should be unsafe for me to pray about things God does not want me to pray about, because being out of cooperation with God is unsafe. However, what if the motive for astral travel is to get closer to God, what then say you?

You're again misinterpreting me. Astral projection should never be the goal of a spiritual practice, otherwise we've missed the entire point of spiritual practice in the first place. The point of spiritual practice is to grow closer to God and deepen our relationship with Him, not to flex our spiritual muscles.

What is the purpose of muscles? To be exercised and flexed, God created muscles for that purpose. Well, why would it be different with spiritual muscles? What if someone astral projects with the motive of GETTING closer to God, what then?

 

[Windwalker]

Why do people conflate out of body experiences with astral projection?

 

[Jollybear]

Why do people conflate out of body experiences with astral projection?

what's the difference? Define?

 

[Windwalker]

what's the difference? Define?

I said this a few posts ago:

I want to say a word to what people call "astral projection". Technically, out of body experiences (OBD), is not astral projection. They are just OBDs. That term astral, simply refers to the 'domain' of the spiritual, represented by things like spirits and angels and whatnot. To astral project, simply means the 'higher mind', enters into that domain. You are 'projecting' your consciousness into the spiritual realms. This is in another term, subtle-level experiences.

I think in popular culture OBDs are taken as astral projecting, but I don't believe they are necessarily that "astral plane" as the term was coined in antiquity. Someone can simply experience OBDs as a neurological response, where they see from outside their bodies. It may or may not deal with the subtle level. But, like so many things like this, popular usage obfuscates meaning.

 

[Shiranui117]

I know this isn't directed at me, but I'll offer my thoughts from my perception if it's of any help. I personally don't look at the spiritual as some separate plane of reality. It is just an awareness of this reality we simply can't see with the "normal" state of consciousness we presently are embedded within. In other words, it's right here, right now. It's simply a matter of pulling back the veil of the flesh, so to speak, and seeing.

Is this "just like the physical"? Let's put it this way. Is the mental world inside our heads where we think about the future and the past, "just like the physical"? No. It's a mental landscape full of symbols representing our thoughts about the physical world. But not just that either. It's also about a conceptual world of things not yet seen or realized without any physical correlates. We think about relationships, for one thing, which are not physical, but mind to mind interactions. We think about values, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. Show me a 'hope' sitting on the ground you can pick up and touch, for instance.

This is all very true. You have good insight.

The spiritual is not some physical-like realm you entered into like passing through a worm-hole into an alternative universe. Not at all. It is the living, vital essence of all that is, everywhere in everything, radiant, present, now. If one is able to expose it to their mind and spirit, it inhabits them. And in this sense we navigate the spiritual world, which is the one that is already now.

This is far more agreeable to me.

The kingdom of God is here, within you, not in the sky, at the end of the wormhole, or somewhere over the rainbow, way up high.

Yet it is also a kingdom not of this world.

And only these "special people" can have these gifts? Aren't you special too? You know that "saints" are only people like you or me, that an organized body years down the road afterwards, typically, chooses to make into an icon to symbolize them as embodying some ideal of the church?

Yes, you're right here.

They are those who typical attain a high degree of spiritual awareness within their lives. That's just as much available to them as any human alive. It's really your choice for that path, or not. If your intention is present, the gift is there. If we don't receive it, it is us withholding ourselves from it. This is speaking from experience. A saint, would wish you to be one too.

Not everyone has the same spiritual gifts; St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12,
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Just as you can have a four-year-old who can play Tchaikovsky, whereas a forty-year-old who was never good at piano can barely play Mary Had a Little Lamb, and some other adult can also play Tchaikovsky after years of practice. Each person was made differently, and we each have our own aptitudes, affinities and abilities.

I will agree that it does require a life of devotion, or deep intention and practice to integrate the truly spiritual into a fully realized life. But I very much disagree the path to that is through asceticism, or that it has to take decades!

True. There are always those exceptionally blessed by God with such gifts who haven't had to toil for years in repentance, prayer, watching and fasting.

How long, is really a matter of where we are at with our 'pliability', so to speak. Now asceticism in fact is a poor path towards that in this life, as it is missing the point of "denying the world". It's an anemic path that in many regards misses the real area of focus, which is our attachments to the things of the world, to objects we cling to, be they material, emotional, ideological, etc. Our physical bodies are not bad! And whipping and denying them misses the point, it avoids looking at the source of our barriers to the spiritual within us. A truly spiritual life inhabits the body! It involves and integrates the whole individual.

Asceticism does not entail torturing our bodies. Asceticism is, as you said, detaching ourselves from worldly cares and worldly things. It doesn't involve the excesses (to put it mildly) of medieval Catholic monasticism flagellation and self-mutilation. Some in Orthodox monasticism (mostly hermits) may take their fasting to an extreme, but no one would say that our physical bodies are bad. They just discipline themselves and rein in the natural passions of the body, or as St. Paul puts it, they "put to death the deeds of the flesh." The flesh itself is not put to death, merely the sins associated with it.

A truly integrated spirituality embraces the world. "You are in the world, but not 'of' the world", says Jesus. You are free to move about within the world, but not possessed, nor mastered by it. You become Master, as opposed to mastered.

Yes.

I prefer to recognize it as communion. It may or may not involve talk. Haven't you experienced this with a deep human relationship, where you simple sit together sharing without words, inhabiting the same space? That's communion. It goes beyond words. And that to me, is what prayer is in its deepest sense. Simply Being with God.

You are entirely correct. Prayer is communication, but it is communion as well.

I said this a few posts ago:

I think in popular culture OBDs are taken as astral projecting, but I don't believe they are necessarily that "astral plane" as the term was coined in antiquity. Someone can simply experience OBDs as a neurological response, where they see from outside their bodies. It may or may not deal with the subtle level. But, like so many things like this, popular usage obfuscates meaning.

Thank you, this sounds much less objectionable to me.

 

[Shiranui117]

The physical and spiritual realms are the same in the sense they are both created by God, but they are different in the sense, that they are two different realms and navigation within those realms are different and the atoms and neutrinos that make up each realm would be flowing at different rates. But just because their different, why would that make one OK to navigate in and the other not ok? My car is different than my house, but both are ok to go inside.

Tell me, is driving a car the same as flying a Boeing 747? They're the same in that they both require operating a vehicle, true. And you can do both safely. But one requires much more training and preparation than the other.

Theirs three groups of people in the bible, and in life; one that God sovereignty gave experiences too, two those that prayed and sought God and read his law and word and lived for him and thirdly, those who TRAINED their senses. This third one might raise your eye brow, but bear with me, they are there and we will get to them.

Actually, the third doesn't raise my brow at all, shocking as you may find that.

What if the motive for astral projection was to communicate with God on a sharper level? What would you say then?

If I clean the house, make breakfast, get a shower, go to work, go to the gym workout, spend time with wife, play with the cat, all those things are in the physical realm, but if I don’t do it while focusing on God, or if I don’t do it to get closer to God, their does not seem nothing inherently wrong with that, I am just entering into experiences in the physical realm that God provided and created, so why would it be any different with the spirit realm? If I explore that realm, not focusing on God or trying to get closer to him, just explore and enter into the full experience that he provided through creating that realm and creating the capabilities within us to astral project, what would be so wrong about it? If anything, just entering into the full experience of life, both in the physical and spiritual realms that God provided, whether the motive was to get closer to him or just explore and learn, just by experiencing, that in itself would it not bring us closer to God since we are embracing what he provided and created? We are not worshiping his creation. Plus my other point, what if we used it with the motive TOO GET CLOSER to God? What would you say then?

If you are doing whatever it is you're doing while knowing precisely what you are doing, and maintaining full awareness and control over yourself, and doing it in cooperation with God and with God as the focus, then that would be much more acceptable.

In fact, in Orthodox tradition, there are those who constantly remember God and pray to Him ceaselessly while doing all of the things that you mentioned above. So even simple things like pushing carts into the vestibule at a grocery store, weeding the garden, or playing with the cat, become a means of communion to God. The spiritual becomes decompartmentalized, and our spiritual life with God spills over into everything we do, no matter how mundane or ordinary. And this communion with God turns the mundane and ordinary into the wondrous and extraordinary, as we begin to glimpse this world as God intended it, and as we begin to see God's Light and Presence in all created things. The world itself begins to reveal itself as an icon of God, as we see the Kingdom of God within His creation.

True the spirit realm is different than the physical realm, and your point is? Just because the spirit realm is different than the physical, why does that mean it’s OK to experience things in the physical realm without GOD GIVING the OK to do so, but for the spirit realm, we have to wait for his every OK move forward now, or don’t?

God lets us do whatever we want. Some things are gifts from Him, and He will bestow them upon us if we ask or when He sees fit to give them, but on the whole, He allows us to make our own decisions about the path we want to take.

If I pray for things God does not want me to bring up, then that in essence would be called praying while not being in cooperation with God, so would that be UNSAFE, using your logic, it should be unsafe for me to pray about things God does not want me to pray about, because being out of cooperation with God is unsafe. However, what if the motive for astral travel is to get closer to God, what then say you?

Even if you pray for something not in accordance with God's Will, you are still seeking communion with Him, and you are still calling upon His name. You are still seeking Him. As I said, prayer is never unsafe, no matter what we pray for or about; there are plenty of people who curse God in their prayers to Him, because they know that God already knows what's in our hearts, so we might as well tell Him straight up exactly what's on our minds.

What is the purpose of muscles? To be exercised and flexed, God created muscles for that purpose. Well, why would it be different with spiritual muscles?

The purpose of muscles is not to be exercised and flexed, the purpose of muscles is to use them for work.

What if someone astral projects with the motive of GETTING closer to God, what then?

Then that is between them and God. I've never done astral projection, so I wouldn't know. But I'm generally cautious about condoning things that I don't understand.