Ask About Islam

[ppp]

1. Why do you say "The infallibility of one's belief system is the most dangerous and toxic aspect of religious beliefs. Or any belief. Including, Islam"?

Because people that recognize the fallibilities of their systems, or at least that they can be fallible, can adopt and refine mechanisms for change as failings are uncovered, and additional knowledge is acquired.

People who consider their systems infallible will either deny the harm of their systems, or the validity of the complaints of those that their systems harm. In fact, they will double down on their beliefs and make efforts to make life harder for those who do not fall in line. The only mechanism of change is schism or revolt.

2. Do you believe atheism falls into the same trap or does it not?

I think that is the wrong question. Atheism is not a system. Theism is not a system. There are theistic systems that do not claim infallibility. Wicca being a good example. There are atheistic systems that do claim infallibility. Stalinism being good example.

 

[firedragon]

Because people that recognize the fallibilities of their systems, or at least that they can be fallible, can adopt and refine mechanisms for change as failings are uncovered, and additional knowledge is acquired.

See. You have learned about Islam from very superficial sources. I am talking about mainstream, Sunni Islam from a very very traditional point of view. From some of the earliest sources like Malik Ibn Anas, the school of Medina etc. The principle of the Islamic system is called Taweel al Masaara. It means the system and fikh or jurisprudence will see change through time based on societal change and global change all in all.

Where ever you learned about Islam, its not deep enough. Yet, I give you the leverage because very few study to that depth. Not even many of the Muslims who participate in forums like this.

I think that is the wrong question. Atheism is not a system. Theism is not a system. There are theistic systems that do not claim infallibility. Wicca being a good example. There are atheistic systems that do claim infallibility. Stalinism being good example.

Wicca? Thats your standard? Wicca is no system or anything for that matter. It is a generic word for multiple beliefs which is not relevant. It is not even like atheism. Even atheism has more orthodox views. I said more, not one. If you are comparing atheism with Wicca in your paradigm of beliefs in infallibilities etc etc you are making the wrong comparison.

Atheism has a basic meaning though there are different types of atheists. But atheism means they reject theism. That is also a belief system. A lot of people have a problem with the word belief as if its taboo. But that is also a belief system. the belief that theism is unfounded in reality. And atheists also believe that its infallible. People will be so hell bent in the defence of it, along with a lot of tribalistic attitudes that they too can be very dangerous. It has been shown very recently in the 20th century.

 

[RAYYAN]

So you consider slavery, using female captives for sex and torture to be morally acceptable.
Case proven m'lud.

No.
Where did I say that?

So the "Nuremberg Defence"? You accept that there may be immorality in there, but you were only obeying orders.

Again, NO. Do you have a reading disability dude!

The Quran clearly states, in several passages, that disbelievers will be tortured for eternity.
What "good reason" do you have to reject Allah's word?

I could go in-depth here but looks like you are a person who doesn't accept whatever I say or whatever evidence I give, so here are a few points for you.
- When you say "I was stuck in traffic forever" it doesn't actually mean forever, rather it means for a long time or feels for long a long time. The word forever in the Quran has the same meaning
- In many verses in the Quran, when God talks about hell, He uses the word day
- There are Hadith (Saying of the prophet) that says a day will come there will be no one in hell

 

[ppp]

See. You have learned about Islam from very superficial sources. I am talking about mainstream, Sunni Islam from a very very traditional point of view. From some of the earliest sources like Malik Ibn Anas, the school of Medina etc. The principle of the Islamic system is called Taweel al Masaara. It means the system and fikh or jurisprudence will see change through time based on societal change and global change all in all.

Where ever you learned about Islam, its not deep enough. Yet, I give you the leverage because very few study to that depth. Not even many of the Muslims who participate in forums like this.

I am not sure how this is supposed to be contrary to what I said.

BTW, I googled Taweel al Masaara. and only got a list of people and Coptic churches. Different spelling perhaps?

Wicca? Thats your standard? Wicca is no system or anything for that matter.

I appreciate your ignorance. Both of Wicca and of your inability to differentiate between the terms "example" and "standard". You may wish to educate yourself.

It is not even like atheism. Even atheism has more orthodox views. I said more, not one.

Cool. Name two views of that all atheist must necessarily share. Not the same thing said two different ways, if you please.

 

[KWED]

See. You have learned about Islam from very superficial sources. I am talking about mainstream, Sunni Islam from a very very traditional point of view. From some of the earliest sources like Malik Ibn Anas, the school of Medina etc. The principle of the Islamic system is called Taweel al Masaara. It means the system and fikh or jurisprudence will see change through time based on societal change and global change all in all.

More disingenuousness.
The Quran claims infallibility for itself and its source.
Muhammad is revered as "the Best of Creation".
The fact that some muslims through the ages have understood that such claims are impractical and lead to problems is actually a vindication of Policy's argument. When people insist on implementing the Quran exactly as revealed, with no concession to a changing world, everyone looses their shjt!

 

[KWED]

No.
Where did I say that?

You didn't have to say it.
You said that everything in your religion is morally acceptable. Your religion promotes or condones slavery, torture, and using female captives for sex.
Therefore you believe that slavery, torture, and using female captives for sex are morally acceptable.

Again, NO. Do you have a reading disability dude!

The problem (repeatedly) is that you often do not seem to understand the implications of what you are saying.
You said "Let's talk about suffering for all eternity, If that is true, and there is God who does that, God who created us, who am I to say anything or what he does with his creation! Even if I wanted to, can I do something! in that case, we don't really have a say."
The part in bold implies that whatever god says, you are obliged to go along with it, even if you don't agree with it.
The first part of your above post implies that you do not agree with slavery, torture, and using female captives for sex. The next implies that you feel you have to accept it all, even though you are uncomfortable with it.

Now, if you are comfortable with slavery, torture, and using female captives for sex, then you are clearly immoral by any civilised standards, which contradicts your claim that you you only do what's right.

I could go in-depth here but looks like you are a person who doesn't accept whatever I say or whatever evidence I give,

When it comes to Islam, I accept what Allah and Muhammad say over some random on the internet - with all due respect.

so here are a few points for you.
- When you say "I was stuck in traffic forever" it doesn't actually mean forever, rather it means for a long time or feels for long a long time. The word forever in the Quran has the same meaning

On what do you base that claim?

- In many verses in the Quran, when God talks about hell, He uses the word day

So you believe that the wrongdoers will only be in hell for a day? This is getting silly now.

- There are Hadith (Saying of the prophet) that says a day will come there will be no one in hell

Reference please.

Also, presumably you apply the same arguments to paradise. It is not forever.

BTW, that video was pretty cringeworthy. Your man was clearly struggling to construct a reasonable argument.

 

[firedragon]

I am not sure how this is supposed to be contrary to what I said.

BTW, I googled Taweel al Masaara. and only got a list of people and Coptic churches. Different spelling perhaps?

Quick googling is not a very good methodology of what ever you are trying to apply good criticism too. I know that you are coming from a very poor background of theological education in Islam. But this is even below that understanding.

If you want to study it, I can give you some sources. but its deep. So you have to be prepared.

I appreciate your ignorance. Both of Wicca and of your inability to differentiate between the terms "example" and "standard". You may wish to educate yourself.

thanks for that.

But could you as such a proponent of Wicca as such a great mono street theology give me some information of their main theology? Like for example Atheism which you took as an example of?

Cool. Name two views of that all atheist must necessarily share. Not the same thing said two different ways, if you please.

Why two views? Unless of course you deny that atheism is denial of theism?

 

[ppp]

Quick googling is not a very good methodology of what ever you are trying to apply good criticism too. I know that you are coming from a very poor background of theological education in Islam. But this is even below that understanding.

Are you have gotten to the place where you have no understanding of the subject on which you feign expertise. And must resort to vain attacks and abject squirming. Do not contact me again.

 

[firedragon]

Are you have gotten to the place where you have no understanding of the subject on which you feign expertise. And must resort to vain attacks and abject squirming. Do not contact me again.

Thaweel means "Primary meaning". "Al Masaara" means "through time, with change in society". Its a very old Islamic concept, I mean as I have already said, traditional, Sunni, Orthodox concept.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Absolutely.

Can you answer the question?

I have a question for you.
Are you able to understand that these words are at different levels of height?


Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

The mountain is higher than the hill. The hill is higher than the valley.
The stream is higher than the river. The river is higher than the sea.

That is the most simple way of explaining that i can think of at the moment.

 

[stanberger]

Right is a synonym of moral. Not a criteria for determining what is moral.

We are not close enough to be trivially social.

No, he doesn't.

So can a slaveowner. Nether is a moral justification rape or torture or slavery.

That is just might makes right. Also known as a failed attempt to justify rape or torture or slavery.

I need more information. Ownership of what?

if the ancient folks back then came to see life in west/christendom today they would think us barbaric. men marrying men. mothers killing 55 million babies etc

 

[stanberger]

Oh dear. This is going to be one of those responses where you just say "NO!" to all of my points but fail to provide any supporting argument or evidence.

Yep, thought so.

I said "Islam does tell you to harm other people under certain circumstances".
You asked for examples, thus implying that you doubted my claim.

You also said "Belief in Islam cannot lead to harm"
However, you have since admitted that it can.

Oh dear. Why do you do this to yourself?
The punishment for treason is not death in the majority of countries.

I am just clarifying and correcting your position.

How is that relevant?
I said "Islam prescribes the death penalty for opposing Islamic rule". Ibn Kathir's tafsir is explicit on that issue.

You said... "if people commit adultery in the privacy of their homes, no one can punish them...
but, if they took it to the public ...the law must be applied"

This implies that the punishment is only for public acts, not private.
With all due respect, perhaps you need to pay more attention to what you are writing. Words have meanings. Statements have implications.

No we haven't because they don't. There are many countries where both capital and corporal punishment has been abolished.

Because this thread is about Islam. And Muslims claim that Islam is perfect and the ultimate social system. And you claimed that Islam doesn't cause harm to people.

Not of you believe that the Quran is infallible and immutable.

Oh dear.
1. I provided you with multiple healthcare sources saying that dry fasting is not healthy.
2. You provide a video of a chiropractor (a glorified masseur) and weight loss consultant saying that it may lead to increased weight loss but he wouldn't do it for more than a day.

What was that you were saying about "education"?

Why do you think I want to hurt you? I am merely trying to educate and inform. Pretty much everything I post is evidential, quoting scripture, or presenting the opinions of Islamic scholars.
Of course, you can ignore all that in favour of your own opinions if you want. After all, sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[stanberger]

folks. stoning to death is barbaric. but stoning in not found in quran but is found in bible for adultery. gays and apostates look it up

 

[stanberger]

Of course, this is just wishful thinking and dogmatic belief. There is absolutely no evidence for any of it. Moreover, there is evidence that out is wrong. We know that our consciousness (what you call "the soul") is dependent on the physical brain because we can change our consciousness by changing the physical brain - sometimes irreversibly.

If it is as you claim, then the "soul" that goes on to the afterlife would be the one existing at death. So, if you developed dementia, or suffered brain injury or schizophrenia for example, that is how you would be in heaven.
Now, if you claim that god will change your "soul" to some idealised version after death, then it is not "you".

Don't follow you.

How can it be a test? A "test" is a means of finding out information about something or someone that is not known. God already knows exactly how we will respond to every event - not least because he degrees that outcome himself.

That is merely your belief based on your subscription to a particular religious ideology. It has no basis in fact. It is no more rational or true than any other belief from any other religion.

Can you even imagine what existing for eternity would be like? No, you can't. However, what we do know for certain is that even after you have done everything that it is possible to do, and done them all a billion times, you would still have an eternity left to fill. Everyone in heaven would have gone quite mad eventually.

 

[stanberger]

not really as in heaven ' there are things the eyes have never seen and people have never tasted ' you will never get bored in heaven

 

[stanberger]

You mean where god tells Muhammad that he can break his peace treaties with the pagans (with a few exceptions), that the pagans are an ignorant people, that Muhammad should not make peace with them if they do not accept Islam, and that he should pursue, ambush, besiege and slay any pagans who refuse to submit to Allah.

Is that the bit you meant?

yes but at then end of the day Mecca was taken without a battle and immunity given to its occupants

 

[ppp]

if the ancient folks back then came to see life in west/christendom today they would think us barbaric. men marrying men. mothers killing 55 million babies etc

That's okay. I think they were barbaric, homophobic, misogynistic slavers who treated women like property and had no concept of consent..

 

[joelr]

folks. stoning to death is barbaric. but stoning in not found in quran but is found in bible for adultery. gays and apostates look it up

plenty of barbaric scripture in Quran, hating on other religions, barbaric, no religious freedom, barbaric, eternal fire, barbaric, eternal fire just for religious beliefs, barbaric, killing people for disbelief, barbaric

1. Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
   

1. Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
   1. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:17

1. Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
   
   Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
   1. 2:191-2
      
      1. Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56
         
         
      1. For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
         
         
      1. Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
         
         
         
      2. Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
         
         
         
      3. Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80
         
         
         
      4. Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86
         

 

[KWED]

folks. stoning to death is barbaric. but stoning in not found in quran

Muhammad ordering people to be stoned to death for adultery is recorded in several sahih hadith. Those collections are an integral and authentic component of Islamic belief. Muhammad is "the best of creation" and the ultimate role model for all Muslims to aspire to. To claim that torturing people to death for having consensual adult sex is not part of Islam is simply false.
But I agree with you that it is absolutely barbaric - which calls Muhammad's character into question.

BTW, flogging people with 100 lashes for consensual, adult sex is in the Quran.

 

[KWED]

not really as in heaven ' there are things the eyes have never seen and people have never tasted '

But once you have done all those thing, and done them all a billion times, there is still an eternity to fill.

you will never get bored in heaven

People get bored, even when there are things to do. It's part of the human psyche. Are you claiming that Allah is going to change the way our minds work in jannah?