Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)

[FFH]

I'm still trying to decide if I believe in omniscience.

Our Father knows every thought we have ever had, otherwise this scripture would be knull and void.

How is it that we can be condemned by our thoughts, unless He knew them alll ???

Not only does he know our thoughts, both past present and future. He also has a record of them, of every human being that has ever lived on this earth or will ever live, for that matter.

"what is impossible with man is possible with God" ~Jesus~

Alma 12: 14

For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

Footnote: unless we repent

 

[SoyLeche]

In order to satisfy Satan/justice

Satan <> Justice. The atonement had nothing at all to do with "satisfying Satan".

And the point of DS' post is that if God really could do "anything" - he could "satisfy justice" without needing the atonement.

 

[Aqualung]

Our Father knows every thought we have ever had, otherwise this scripture would be knull and void.

How is it that we can be condemned by our thoughts, unless He knew them alll ???

Knowing all our thoughts is not the same thing as knowing everything. After all, there's more than just thoughts in this world.

By the way, where do you get these footnotes to the scriptures? Is it the FFH translation?

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

God knows every choice we have ever made and will ever make, throughout the eternities.

God is omniscient, which means he knows all, both past, present and future events.

This does not take away from our free agency, which we obviously stil have. We still have the freedom to choose right from wrong or the direction of our lives, but God knows what choices we will make before we make them.

This scripture is coming to mind very strongly for some reason.

Galatians 6: 7

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

i am thanking more on the lines of repenting and being forgiven of sin, he know what we have done so he says "i will remember them no more"

 

[FFH]

Satan <> Justice. The atonement had nothing at all to do with "satisfying Satan"

Oh yes, absolutely, Satan demands justice for all our unrepented sins. Satan cries our for justice to be poured out in it's due measure according to each particular sin commited. He cries out to God in the heavens and God must satisfy justice for sins commited. When we turn from our sins justice/Satan must still be satisified so God sent his only begotten son in the flesh, Jesus Christ, to satisfy Satan and the demands of justice for sins we have commeted. Christ took the hit of Satan's wrath/justice for all the sins of mankind, if they would but repent (turn away from sin) Christ will not take the hit for unrepented sins and we will have to suffer for them in one way or another, either in this life or the next....

Doctrine and Covenants 19: 17-18, 20

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit&#8212;and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink&#8212;

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tated at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
FFH footnote: I have felt a small portion of Satan's wrath for sin and it's not fun, but helped me to realize the severity of mental and physical pain that we will endure if we do not keep all the commandments...We will pay for every unrepented sin either in this life or the next...

And the point of DS' post is that if God really could do "anything" - he could "satisfy justice" without needing the atonement.

No, because Satan/justice demands a physical and spiritual punishment upon a mortal human being for sins commited...He does not care who, just that someone suffers for sins commited...

Satan cries out for justice and justice must be served...

Satan's wrath/justice for sins commited was poured out on Jesus Chirst on behalf of all those who had or would repent of their sins....

Whatever sins we repent of/turn away from, those sins will be forgiven...all of those past sins that pertain to that sin will be wiped away....

Whichever sins we choose to turn away from, those and only those past sins will be forgiven...the rest we must suffer for ourselves...

To avoid all justice/punishment/wrath of Satan we need to turn from all sin...God cannot satisfy Satan's wrath/justice for sin without an acutal mortal human being taking the hit. This would be robbing the demands of Satan/justice..

Mercy (God) cannot rob Justice (Satan)

Satan demands justice to be poured out upon us if we do not repent, and if we do repent he demands justice for our past sins to be poured upon someone who is without sin, that's where Christ becomes necessary and where mercy (God) steps in.

Satan (justice) is satisified, when an individual's punishment for sin, who has turned from sin, is thrust upon another, providing that person has never sinned. The only person, according to the laws of justice and mercy, who can take the punishment for sin, on our behalf, is one who is without sin. This is a part of the law of mercy (God) which justice (Satan) cannot go against...

These are just the rules God and Satan must adhere to and they are eternal laws that have always existed and they cannot or are unable to violate them... They must be affixed eternal laws, like those which govern the universe and keep it in perfect order...

 

[FFH]

Knowing all our thoughts is not the same thing as knowing everything. After all, there's more than just thoughts in this world.

That's only one example in which we have scriptural proof of...God designed and created everything in this universe and he knows everyone of his creations, down everyone of our thoughts and can record them all.

What else is there to know ??? Is there something you're not telling us ???

By the way, where do you get these footnotes to the scriptures? Is it the FFH translation?

No, it's from growing up as a Mormon in Salt Lake, attending seminary for four years, studying the gospel for two years intently on a mission while in Japan and then dropping out of college to give my full attention to these things, because I was still not satisfied with my understanding of the gospel and wanted to know more...

The Joseph Smith translation surely helped me gain a more full understanding of the errors found in the King james.. most are covered in the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Moses...

FFH translation is just my way of pointing out that this is what I have learned and how I understand restored gospel truths...

Which "FFH translation" are you challenging and I will defend it.

Probably this one, since it's the only FFH transaltion/quote I gave..

Holy Ghost is God's spirit which enables him to be in all places at all times....

Shall we debate this or is there another FFH translation/quote in which you think is not gospel doctrine...

Ask away...

 

[FFH]

i am thanking more on the lines of repenting and being forgiven of sin, he know what we have done so he says "i will remember them no more"

Right, but only if we turn from sin. If we turn from sin, and then sin again, then all the former sins,, pertaining to that particular sin, will come back to us, and we will have to suffer for them ourselves. Christ did not suffer for our unrepentant sins (those we have not turned away from), only those we have repented of (turned away from).

My wife constantly reminds me that Christ's sacrifice is not a license to sin. We cannot, and should not, look at it that way...

If we die in our sins, we will continue in sin, and suffer for them, as long as we remain in them..

Is there a chance to turn from sin in the next life ??? I believe there is, but the same conditions will be present and it will be just as hard to turn from sin then as it is now..

We need to exercise faith and turn from sin now, the longer we put that off, the longer we will be apart from God and his blessings..

It takes effort to resist the things of this world, but the sooner we do it, the sooner we will live with God and enjoy the blessings he enjoys...

 

[SoyLeche]

Oh yes, absolutely, Satan demands justice for all our unrepented sins. Satan cries our for justice to be poured out in it's due measure according to each particular sin commited. He cries out to God in the heavens and God must satisfy justice for sins commited. When we turn from our sins justice/Satan must still be satisified so God sent his only begotten son in the flesh, Jesus Christ, to satisfy Satan and the demands of justice for sins we have commeted. Christ took the hit of Satan's wrath/justice for all the sins of mankind, if they would but repent (turn away from sin) Christ will not take the hit for unrepented sins and we will have to suffer for them in one way or another, either in this life or the next....

Doctrine and Covenants 19: 17-18, 20

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit&#8212;and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink&#8212;

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tated at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
FFH footnote: I have felt a small portion of Satan's wrath for sin and it's not fun, but helped me to realize the severity of mental and physical pain that we will endure if we do not keep all the commandments...We will pay for every unrepented sin either in this life or the next...

No, because Satan/justice demands a physical and spiritual punishment upon a mortal human being for sins commited...He does not care who, just that someone suffers for sins commited...

Satan cries out for justice and justice must be served...

Satan's wrath/justice for sins commited was poured out on Jesus Chirst on behalf of all those who had or would repent of their sins....

Whatever sins we repent of/turn away from, those sins will be forgiven...all of those past sins that pertain to that sin will be wiped away....

Whichever sins we choose to turn away from, those and only those past sins will be forgiven...the rest we must suffer for ourselves...

To avoid all justice/punishment/wrath of Satan we need to turn from all sin...God cannot satisfy Satan's wrath/justice for sin without an acutal mortal human being taking the hit. This would be robbing the demands of Satan/justice..

Mercy (God) cannot rob Justice (Satan)

Satan demands justice to be poured out upon us if we do not repent, and if we do repent he demands justice for our past sins to be poured upon someone who is without sin, that's where Christ becomes necessary and where mercy (God) steps in.

Satan (justice) is satisified, when an individual's punishment for sin, who has turned from sin, is thrust upon another, providing that person has never sinned. The only person, according to the laws of justice and mercy, who can take the punishment for sin, on our behalf, is one who is without sin. This is a part of the law of mercy (God) which justice (Satan) cannot go against...

These are just the rules God and Satan must adhere to and they are eternal laws that have always existed and they cannot or are unable to violate them... They must be affixed eternal laws, like those which govern the universe and keep it in perfect order...

Once again - Satan <> Justice. You are making one of your famous "logical leaps" that has no basis. The atonement does have something to do with satisfying justice - but it has nothing to do with satisfying Satan.

Notice - the scripture you have quoted supports the idea that the Atonement satisfies justice - and since I doubt anyone here has any problem with that idea taking the time to prove it with scripture is kind of a waste. You have not given anything to support your contention that Satan = Justice, and I don't think you are going to find anything to support that leap.

 

[Aqualung]

That's only one example in which we have scriptural proof of

Well, then, let's hear the rest.

No, it's from growing up as a Mormon in Salt Lake, attending seminary for four years, studying the gospel for two years intently on a mission while in Japan and then dropping out of college to give my full attention to these things, because I was still not satisfied with my understanding of the gospel and wanted to know more...

Well, just make sure you remember that's your personal interpretation.

Which "FFH translation" are you challenging and I will defend it.

Not challenging, just pointing out the fact that it's not difinitive or necessarily acceptable.

 

[Dream Angel]

Hello all!
I have been reading through another good site I found on the LDS faith:-

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/humor/index.htm

The section it takes you to is the jokes section, I found this one and thought it was quite cute.

A primary teacher was discussing the Ten Commandments with her five and six year olds. After explaining the commandment to "honor thy father and thy mother," she asked, "Is there a commandment that teaches us how to treat our brothers and sisters?"

Without missing a beat one little boy (the oldest of a family of seven) answered, "Thou shall not kill."

I know how he feels! lol! ​

 

[Dream Angel]

I cant actually remember if I have asked you this one before, but...

what is the LDS view on re-incarnation (I dont mean the after the final judgement reincarnation) I mean generally, going into a different body to lead another life on earth type?

Thankyou

 

[SoyLeche]

I cant actually remember if I have asked you this one before, but...

what is the LDS view on re-incarnation (I dont mean the after the final judgement reincarnation) I mean generally, going into a different body to lead another life on earth type?

Thankyou

We don't believe in it.

 

[Katzpur]

what is the LDS view on re-incarnation (I dont mean the after the final judgement reincarnation) I mean generally, going into a different body to lead another life on earth type?

In a word, we won't believe in reincarnation. Each of us has a spirit that God created perhaps billions of years before we were born. That spirit is uniquely ours and will remain with us throughout eternity. When the spirit first enters into a physical body, giving it life, the result is a human being. When the spirit leaves that physical body, the body dies. The spirit lives on and will, at the resurrection, again be united with the physical body, which will be made perfect and immortal. It will never again leave that body, and there is no time when it will ever inhabit any other physical body (human or animal).

 

[Wandered Off]

A good friend of mine on another board was complaining that Mormons he talked to never answered his questions. I mentioned that I knew a group of bright Mormons (you kids here) who were very willing to answer questions, so he asked me to forward them. As you'll see, some of them contain assumptions or assertions that may have to be addressed separately. I apologize in advance if some of these sound less than respectful.

1. For the Labanites' journey, where did the ship building technology come from? At the time, no nation on earth possessed the ability to create long-range ocean going vessels that would be neccessary for a trip through the Mediterranean, across the Atlantic, and then across the Caribbean. Why was the knowledge of the shipbuilding subsequently lost? Why didn't we see other such ships being built by the people of the Americas? Didn't anyone in Israel see them building it?

2. Why has there never (to date) been found a single artifact, relic, or ruin in the Americas that corroborates the LDS story of the Labanites coming to the New World? Or has there?

3. Can you provide a recognized independent academic source (not an LDS-affiliated scholar) who can demonstrate the veracity of the "Reformed Egyptian" that Joseph Smith is said to have "translated" in the Pearl of Great Price? To date, the Louvre, the Smithsonian, the Egyptology Dept. at the University of Cairo, and others who have examined Smith's manuscripts claim that his work appears contrived. (from WO: I have not verified these claims)

4. How many of the Witnesses at the very beginning of the BoM were excommunicated and why? Why are they still being listed as "Witnesses To The Revelation of Joseph Smith"?

5. Why did the Angel Moroni take the 'golden plates' to Heaven with him leaving us no corroborating evidence of Joseph Smith's vision?

If you have already answered these elsewhere, please direct me there. Thanks!

 

[SoyLeche]

A good friend of mine on another board was complaining that Mormons he talked to never answered his questions. I mentioned that I knew a group of bright Mormons (you kids here) who were very willing to answer questions, so he asked me to forward them. As you'll see, some of them contain assumptions or assertions that may have to be addressed separately. I apologize in advance if some of these sound less than respectful.

1. For the Labanites' journey, where did the ship building technology come from? At the time, no nation on earth possessed the ability to create long-range ocean going vessels that would be neccessary for a trip through the Mediterranean, across the Atlantic, and then across the Caribbean. Why was the knowledge of the shipbuilding subsequently lost? Why didn't we see other such ships being built by the people of the Americas? Didn't anyone in Israel see them building it?

I would suggest that he read the actual account instead of just accepting what others have told him. The answer to all of these questions are in there: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/17

You can get to an answer for the last question in the first few verses (they weren't in Israel anymore - and hadn't been for years).

The answer to his other questions is in verse 8

2. Why has there never (to date) been found a single artifact, relic, or ruin in the Americas that corroborates the LDS story of the Labanites coming to the New World? Or has there?

http://googlemini.farmsresearch.com...ection&lr="s&proxystylesheet=my_collection&oe=

I haven't looked through these, but I'm sure you can find some good info in some of these links.

3. Can you provide a recognized independent academic source (not an LDS-affiliated scholar) who can demonstrate the veracity of the "Reformed Egyptian" that Joseph Smith is said to have "translated" in the Pearl of Great Price? To date, the Louvre, the Smithsonian, the Egyptology Dept. at the University of Cairo, and others who have examined Smith's manuscripts claim that his work appears contrived. (from WO: I have not verified these claims)

I don't know - I'm not a scholar of ancient languages. You could check out the FARMS website ( http://farms.byu.edu/ ) - not necessarily for what the FARMS scholars have written, but to check out their bibliographies.

4. How many of the Witnesses at the very beginning of the BoM were excommunicated and why? Why are they still being listed as "Witnesses To The Revelation of Joseph Smith"?

Almost all of them. Not a single one ever denied that they witnessed what their written testimonies say they witnessed though, so I see no problem still listing them as witnesses. It actually makes their testimony a bit stronger because a lot of them ended up having some pretty strong feelings against Joseph Smith, but still said he was telling the truth about the Angel and the Plates.

5. Why did the Angel Moroni take the 'golden plates' to Heaven with him leaving us no corroborating evidence of Joseph Smith's vision?

You'll have to ask Moroni that. Anything I could tell you would be pure speculation. I would guess that, for some reason or other, God didn't want there to be "corroborating evidence". Why? I have no idea.

 

[SoyLeche]

Here's some more:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/000121nephiship.html

http://www.latter-day.com/bofm/ship.htm

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#reformed

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#wit

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#real

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#anthon

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml

 

[nutshell]

Thanks that was very helpful. I appreciate yoru consise answers. they were great. Just a follow up: Do you guys see any type of connection to the new testmanent priesthood and your own priesthoods? And do you guys see any connection with the New testmanet priesthood and the ministry of sacrifice in a liturigcal context? And if so does your priesthood offer any sacrifices in a liturgical context? thanks once again for the great answers. God bless you always In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

Just to add...we believe in receiving the priesthood by the laying on of hands by one who has authority (who holds the priesthood). Every priesthood holder can trace his priesthood back directly to Jesus Christ.

 

[athanasius]

Just to add...we believe in receiving the priesthood by the laying on of hands by one who has authority (who holds the priesthood). Every priesthood holder can trace his priesthood back directly to Jesus Christ.

So you do believe in apostolic succession?

 

[nutshell]

So you do believe in apostolic succession?

Can you please define what you mean by that?

 

[athanasius]

Can you please define what you mean by that?

One who can trace his authority of priestly and bishopric lineage in historical succession back to Jesus and the apostles. We catholic hold this as we can trace all our Popes to the first Pope Peter historically by the laying on of hands and ordination. do you guys view the same I suppose by your explanation?