As a Christian do you believe in an honest-to-god punishing Hell?

[Desert Snake]

not a average belief Xian here, but yeah, I believe in Hell. Hell, is generally reserved for the specially heinous, imo.

 

[Scott C.]

But isn't that the essence of Christianity: salvation from Hell?

I agree that Christianity is about salvation from the fall of Adam and Eve. It's about repentance and atonement. The motivation for living a Christian life should be much higher than simply avoiding hell. The picture I copied is clever, but it makes Christ look arbitrary and silly in his offering to save people from himself.

 

[Skwim]

I agree that Christianity is about salvation from the fall of Adam and Eve. It's about repentance and atonement.

And what is the motivation to repent and atone? It's to achieve salvation from Hell.

The motivation for living a Christian life should be much higher than simply avoiding hell.

And why should one strive to lead a "Christian" life? It's to achieve salvation from Hell.

The picture I copied is clever, but it makes Christ look arbitrary and silly in his offering to save people from himself.

The picture you copied (DoubtingNate's) hit the nail right on the head. It sums up the very essence of the situation.

Think about it.

 

[Scott C.]

And what is the motivation to repent and atone? It's to achieve salvation from Hell.

Life is a school. Do we go to school simply to not get "F's" and suffer the consequences of that failure? Or, do we go to school because we want the learning experience and the benefits associated with personal growth?

 

[Skwim]

Life is a school. Do we go to school simply to not get "F's" and suffer the consequences of that failure? Or, do we go to school because we want the learning experience and the benefits associated with personal growth?

Poor analogy. We could skip school and not be subject to getting an F or any other grade. But we can't skip life. How we regard our life and what we do with it is up to each of us to decide. You evidently feel one of your prime objectives in life is to gain salvation from Hell after you die, which is fine, but in order to do so you need to do or not do certain things. Two of these are personal repentance and atonement. On the other hand, I choose not to believe in such a necessity and ignore it, doing other things with my life. So, while we may both go through this "school of life," I don't believe mine includes any grading system or post-life consequences.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

not a average belief Xian here, but yeah, I believe in Hell. Hell, is generally reserved for the specially heinous, imo.

Yipes ! Are you saying Jesus is specially heinous ?_______
Since Jesus went to hell the day Jesus died - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32; Psalm 16:10 - then what was righteous Jesus doing in hell ?

There is a BIG difference in biblical hell and the religious-myth teaching of a non-biblical hell that is taught as being Scripture.
Even by age 12 Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Those Hebrew Scriptures teach Not pain in death, but sleep in death.
- References: Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13 and John 11 vs 11-14
Remember: there was No postmortem penalty for father Adam and mother Eve.
So, while in hell Jesus would have been in a sleep-like unconscious state until God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell - Acts 3:15
That makes the Bible's temporary hell just the grave for the sleeping dead until resurrected to either heaven for some - Rev. 20:6, or for the majority of mankind resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom governmental rulership over earth - Psalm 72:8

KJV Bibles have translated in English the word Gehenna as hellfire. Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. So, Gehenna is a fitting word for destruction as in the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalm 92:7. Destroyed as in annihilated forever, Not burn forever. Repent or perish ( be destroyed ) - 2nd Peter 3:9

Please also notice that the temporary Bible's hell comes to a final end according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14
After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for empty biblical hell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And what is the motivation to repent and atone? It's to achieve salvation from Hell.
And why should one strive to lead a "Christian" life? It's to achieve salvation from Hell.
The picture you copied (DoubtingNate's) hit the nail right on the head. It sums up the very essence of the situation.

Think about it.

Yes, think about it.
Since everyone in temporary biblical hell (grave ) is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of biblical hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' of Rev. 20 vs 13,14), then No one ends up in biblical hell.
Even wicked Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Rev. 21:8 - and Not in hell.

So, what Jesus is saving us, rescuing us, delivering us, is from: destruction. The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7
Since the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5 - it will be as if the wicked never existed - they will perish - 2nd Peter 3:9

We are nearing the ' great tribulation ' of Rev. 7:14, and the humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 can remain alive on earth living right through the great tribulation, and keep on living on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year governmental rulership over earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

 

[Thanda]

Poor analogy. We could skip school and not be subject to getting an F or any other grade. But we can't skip life. How we regard our life and what we do with it is up to each of us to decide. You evidently feel one of your prime objectives in life is to gain salvation from Hell after you die, which is fine, but in order to do so you need to do or not do certain things. Two of these are personal repentance and atonement. On the other hand, I choose not to believe in such a necessity and ignore it, doing other things with my life. So, while we may both go through this "school of life," I don't believe mine includes any grading system or post-life consequences.

The analogy is not poor just because it is not a perfect fit. No analogy is ever a perfect fit - cause nothing is exactly like something else.

But if you want to view Salvation as merely being deliverance from hell - well there might actually be a good lesson in that too. According to what I've said before on this thread God took us from a place of chaos and darkness. He brought to heaven where he lives. Thus by being associated with God we were saved from the hell we had been living in. It makes sense therefore that any salvation God gives us is a Salvation from the hell from which we come. Those who reject any salvation God offers are left with no salvation at all - in other words they return to the hell from which they come. Except this time it will be a far more painful experience since they now know better: they know what heaven tastes like and they know that their rebellion has cost them a huge amount of happiness.

It is like a amazonion today. They have no TVs, phones, advanced medical help and other things which 21st century technology could give them. Their lives are hard but since they know no better (assuming they know no better) they will not complain too much despite their hardship. But take a man from New York and place there and it will be hell for him!

Take any man who has experience the blessings and advantages of heaven and who has lived in the presence of God back to the chaos and darkness from which he originally comes and it will be hell to him!

 

[psychoslice]

For me personally Christianity is one form of salvation, as also other forms of religions, what I didn't like about Christianity was their scare tactic od trying to force people to believe in what they themselves believed, and that form of course being hell. I think if anyone believed in a religion that threatens you to be good and do God's will is sick, its like being a sadistic masochist. many people are actually frightened of God, they say they respect him, but I don't believe that, how on earth could anyone respect someone who wants to kill everyone else who doesn't believe in what he wants ?, and many believes project that on to others who don't believe what they believe, believing they are special and more favoured by the mighty God. I do believe in the near future all this will change, people will gradually wake up to what's going on, they will not except such horror, their God will be seen as one, and everyone else is one in that God, organized religion will also fade away for the good of all, I look forward to this day, if I am around of course.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, think about it.
Since everyone in temporary biblical hell (grave ) is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of biblical hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' of Rev. 20 vs 13,14), then No one ends up in biblical hell.
Even wicked Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Rev. 21:8 - and Not in hell.

So, what Jesus is saving us, rescuing us, delivering us, is from: destruction. The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7
Since the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5 - it will be as if the wicked never existed - they will perish - 2nd Peter 3:9

We are nearing the ' great tribulation ' of Rev. 7:14, and the humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 can remain alive on earth living right through the great tribulation, and keep on living on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year governmental rulership over earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

That you choose to dismiss some of the Bible's characterizations of life after death, principally Hell, is up to you. but that's not the premise of the OP. Your irrelevancy here is ignored.

 

[InChrist]

In as much as the only other thing in my post were the quoted verses from the Bible, I can only assume you believe that because they appear on various websites they are somehow invalidated. Thing is, we both know how powerfully these verses exemplify torture. That you need to see the word in print before you will recognize the anguish that defines the word is quite odd. Do you do this with other events in the world? Do you refuse to recognize that the Taliban does bad things unless you see it called "bad" by someone else? Sorry, but your attempt to obfuscate the simple issue is a miserable failure. OR have I got it all wrong? You actually don't know what torture is?


In other words, forget the embarrassing descriptions of Hell recorded in Matthew, Mark, II Thessalonians, Revelation, and other chapters of the Bible, and pay attention to this sorry excuse for apologetics. I know your agenda is to recast the words of the Bible into more acceptable forms, but it ain't working, InChrist. Not by a long shot. The Bible may not use the word "torture," but only a child, the ignorant, or those with a necessitous agenda would fail to recognize it when described. Your cherry picking doesn't impress.

I wasn't referring to the verses, but the flames you posted in association with them. Obviously, you didn't grasp the point(s) of the article, I guess because you fail or are unable to make the distinction between the physical and spiritual and time and eternity. God has no reason to "torture" anyone as His desire is for all to know the freedom and joy of eternal life with Him.

I think the verses quite powerfully exemplify the self-induced lonely torment each person brings upon themselves when they reject God the Source of life and refuse to live in the glorious beauty and joy He planned for the eternal beings He created. Personally, I don't think I'm trying to make anything more acceptable. I really think it is a very sad and sorry thing that people would refuse the love and goodness of God in order to pursue their own self-centered sin.

 

[Skwim]

The analogy is not poor just because it is not a perfect fit. No analogy is ever a perfect fit - cause nothing is exactly like something else.

You funny guy (gal?).

But if you want to view Salvation as merely being deliverance from hell - well there might actually be a good lesson in that too. According to what I've said before on this thread God took us from a place of chaos and darkness. He brought to heaven where he lives. Thus by being associated with God we were saved from the hell we had been living in. It makes sense therefore that any salvation God gives us is a Salvation from the hell from which we come. Those who reject any salvation God offers are left with no salvation at all - in other words they return to the hell from which they come. Except this time it will be a far more painful experience since they now know better: they know what heaven tastes like and they know that their rebellion has cost them a huge amount of happiness.

Fiction piled upon fiction. But make it up however you wish. I'm sticking with the original.

 

[Unification]

Just so we know how hell is commonly regarded:

Catholic

"A state involving definitive self-exclusion from communion with God:"
Source: Pope John Paul II; Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"Hell is the place and state of eternal punishment for the fallen angels and human beings who die deliberately estranged from the love of God. The existence of hell, as the everlasting abode of the devils and those human beings who have died in the state of mortal sin, is a defined dogma of the Catholic Church"
Source: (Baker, "Fundamentals of Catholicism" (1983), volume 3, p. 371).

"God made hell to punish the devils or bad angels, and all who die in mortal sin. No one can come out of Hell, for out of Hell there is no redemption"
Source: Crawford & Rossiter, "Reasons for Living: Education and Young People's Search for Meaning" (2006). p. 192.​

Protestant

"According to the Alliance Commission on Unity & Truth among Evangelicals (ACUTE) the majority of Protestants have held that hell will be a place of unending conscious torment, both physical and spiritual."
Source:Evangelical Alliance Commission on Unity and Truth among Evangelicals (2000). The Nature of Hell. Acute, Paternoster

". . . the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
source:Westminster Confession (1646):

"A minority of Protestants believe in the doctrine of conditional immortality, which teaches that those sent to hell will not experience eternal conscious punishment, but instead will be extinguished or annihilated after a period of "limited conscious punishment".
Source: "The Nature of Hell. Conclusions and Recommendations". Evangelical Alliance. 2000.

"Christian Science defines "hell" as follows: "Mortal belief; error; lust; remorse; hatred; revenge; sin; sickness; death; suffering and self-destruction; self-imposed agony; effects of sin; that which 'worketh abomination or maketh a lie. "
Source: Science and Health with Key to the Scripture by Mary Baker Eddy, 588: 1-4.
​

If you do, don't you think this is a bit extreme and unfair?

​

Proverbs 15:24King James Version (KJV)
24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Heaven and hell are states of mind while alive in this body.

If one dies negatively emotional, wanting, desirous, etc ... They will have no physical body to harness their negative energy. The body is a type of resistance. It would be like the worst itch that couldn't be scratched. That would be like hell.

One will seek a new body to enter into a ripe and ready womb with the pineal gland formed and their available landing choices will not be many, hopefully it's not in an animal or even worse, in the ocean... The sulfer sink to evolve all over. It'll likely be in another human body experiencing the reaping of what was sown, perhaps becoming what the old self hated and made judgements on often.

 

[Willamena]

Where's the poll?

 

[psychoslice]

Where's the poll?

North of us lol.

 

[Skwim]

I wasn't referring to the verses, but the flames you posted in association with them.

Good grief! The flames are only window dressing, although they are meant to reinforce the message of the Bible.

Obviously, you didn't grasp the point(s) of the article, I guess because you fail or are unable to make the distinction between the physical and spiritual and time and eternity. God has no reason to "torture" anyone as His desire is for all to know the freedom and joy of eternal life with Him.

The article is just so much apologetic gibberish. If god has "no reason to 'torture' anyone" then why does his "revealed word" describe just the opposite? No need to answer, the question is rhetorical.

I think the verses quite powerfully exemplify the self-induced lonely torment each person brings upon themselves when they reject God the Source of life and refuse to live in the glorious beauty and joy He planned for the eternal beings He created. Personally, I don't think I'm trying to make anything more acceptable. I really think it is a very sad and sorry thing that people would refuse the love and goodness of God in order to pursue their own self-centered sin.

And you don't think it sad that even more are left out of the salvation loop through no fault of their own: those never given the opportunity to accept Christ as their savior?

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

Note the lack of qualification that provides an exception for the ignorant. And yes, I have heard the apologetics that have concocted supposed exceptions, some claiming the ignorant will have to serve a bit of time in purgatory before being admitted to Heaven or Hell, while others say the ignorant are simply bound for Hell. Tough luck matey.

 

[Thanda]

Fiction piled upon fiction. But make it up however you wish. I'm sticking with the original.

Indeed. Well my only aim was to disabuse you and others of the notion that it would be unjust of a God (if he exists) to send people to hell. I would personally be falling-off-my-chair surprised if God was some kind of "whatever man" hippie.

But the big question is not what kind of person God is - and whether and why he sends people to hell. The big question is whether there is a God at all. Because if there is and there is some way that we should be living our lives, then it should be possible to communicate with him and have him (and not some priest or blogger) tell us what kind of man He is, what His plans are and what He expects of us.

 

[Skwim]

Indeed. Well my only aim was to disabuse you and others of the notion that it would be unjust of a God (if he exists) to send people to hell.

Sorry, but you failed.

But the big question is not what kind of person God is - and whether and why he sends people to hell. The big question is whether there is a God at all. Because if there is and there is some way that we should be living our lives, then it should be possible to communicate with him and have him (and not some priest or blogger) tell us what kind of man He is, what His plans are and what He expects of us.

No that isn't the question. The question is "As a Christian do you believe in an honest-to-god punishing Hell?" Want to pose another question, then make up your own thread.

 

[Thanda]

And you don't think it sad that even more are left out of the salvation loop through no fault of their own: those never given the opportunity to accept Christ as their savior?

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Note the lack of qualification that provides an exception for the ignorant. And yes, I have heard the apologetics that have concocted supposed exceptions, some claiming the ignorant will have to serve a bit of time in purgatory before being admitted to Heaven or Hell, while others say the ignorant are simply bound for Hell. Tough luck matey.

You make two dangerous assumptions. Firstly you assume that that is the only time Jesus has ever spoken on the subject of believing in him and that there are no other verses where he gives more context than he does here.

Secondly you assume that God requires people to believe without ever having heard about him. This seems odd since if that was then case why was Jesus wasting his time going around preaching to everyone and telling his followers to go out and preach to more people? If God felt it was just to condemn people who did not believe in him regardless of whether they had the chance to know him, why does he bother to tell people anything about himself? Why not just wait in his dark corner up there until we are all dead and the Bammm! send us all to hell one by one?

I have always said that believing or not believing something has little to do with evidence and a lot to do with choice. It appears to me that you don't want to believe in a benevolent and just God as you fear that it would require you to cease to be a law unto yourself. So you choose to characterize God as this crazy "how many people can I put in hell" monster. And that makes you feel better since you are then completely justified in not only not knowing God, but in not wanting to know him too.

 

[Thanda]

No that isn't the question. The question is "As a Christian do you believe in an honest-to-god punishing Hell?" Want to pose another question, then make up your own thread.

I am telling you what the big question is. I don't need your answer - so I won't be posting another thread.