As a Christian do you believe in an honest-to-god punishing Hell?

[InChrist]

If god has "no reason to 'torture' anyone" then why does his "revealed word" describe just the opposite?

According to the scriptures the lake of fire was created for Satan and the fallen angels. So the verses which mention this are to give people warning of the miserable eternal state that is in store for anyone who chooses to follow Satan and go there, rather than changing direction and choosing the eternal destiny of love, beauty, joy, and endless creativity which the Creator desires for all.

And you don't think it sad that even more are left out of the salvation loop through no fault of their own: those never given the opportunity to accept Christ as their savior?

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

Note the lack of qualification that provides an exception for the ignorant. And yes, I have heard the apologetics that have concocted supposed exceptions, some claiming the ignorant will have to serve a bit of time in purgatory before being admitted to Heaven or Hell, while others say the ignorant are simply bound for Hell. Tough luck matey.

[/QUOTE]
I don't believe in tough luck, purgatory, or that the ignorant are simply bound for hell with no hope or left out of the loop to have salvation. I trust the goodness of God and if He desires that all should be saved as His word indicates, then I know that all have the opportunity and He will see to it. The Bible has several examples of people who were outside of the loop of Israel in the OT or hearing the gospel in the NT, yet they demonstrated faith toward God and He blessed them or provided more information. I believe if someone, anywhere is sincerely seeking to know God, He will in one way or another provide all that may be needed...bibles, teachers, missionaries, believing friends, tracts, etc. for them to hear about Christ and have the opportunity of salvation.

 

[raph]

Yipes ! Are you saying Jesus is specially heinous ?_______
Since Jesus went to hell the day Jesus died - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32; Psalm 16:10 - then what was righteous Jesus doing in hell ?

The translations differ very much in these verses. Many of the bibels tell me, that Jesus was not left in hell. The others tell me, that Jesus was never in hell.

New International Version
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
New Living Translation
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
English Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
New American Standard Bible
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay.
International Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades or allow your Holy One to experience decay.
NET Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Because you did not leave my Soul in Sheol and you did not give your Pure One to see destruction.
”GOD'S WORD® Translation
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.
Jubilee Bible 2000
because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
King James 2000 Bible
Because you will not leave my soul in hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption.
American King James Version
Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.
American Standard Version
Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.
Darby Bible Translation
for thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, nor wilt thou give thy gracious one to see corruption.
English Revised Version
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption:
Weymouth New Testament
For Thou wilt not leave me in the Unseen World forsaken, nor give up Thy holy One to undergo decay.
World English Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
Young's Literal Translation
because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

 

[psychoslice]

No, this backward thinking of hell needs to be done away with, its insulting to the human race, and very childish...........as we evolve we will drop this backward thinking, and wonder in the future how we could have believe in such nonsense.

 

[InChrist]

No, this backward thinking of hell needs to be done away with, its insulting to the human race, and very childish...........as we evolve we will drop this backward thinking, and wonder in the future how we could have believe in such nonsense.

I think if you just give it some serious consideration you'll realize it is very reasonable.

 

[psychoslice]

I think if you just give it some serious consideration you'll realize it is very reasonable.

Yes I have, for over 20 years as a Christian, and yes its disgusting.

 

[InChrist]

Yes I have, for over 20 years as a Christian, and yes its disgusting.

Then I guess you don't believe in justice and evil should have free reign to cause damage forever.

 

[psychoslice]

Then I guess you don't believe in justice and evil should have free reign to cause damage forever.

No that's not true, we are talking about people who just don't want anything to do with God, or someone who likes a drink or two, or someone who is happy just the way they are. No, this concept of god is cruel and has no position in this world we live in today, it may have served its propose in the dark ages, but we are no longer there, such backward thinking has had its time.

 

[Kolibri]

The translations differ very much in these verses. Many of the bibels tell me, that Jesus was not left in hell. The others tell me, that Jesus was never in hell.

New International Version
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
New Living Translation
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
English Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
New American Standard Bible
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay.
International Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades or allow your Holy One to experience decay.
NET Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Because you did not leave my Soul in Sheol and you did not give your Pure One to see destruction.
”GOD'S WORD® Translation
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.
Jubilee Bible 2000
because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
King James 2000 Bible
Because you will not leave my soul in hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption.
American King James Version
Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.
American Standard Version
Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.
Darby Bible Translation
for thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, nor wilt thou give thy gracious one to see corruption.
English Revised Version
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption:
Weymouth New Testament
For Thou wilt not leave me in the Unseen World forsaken, nor give up Thy holy One to undergo decay.
World English Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
Young's Literal Translation
because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

As you may have noted Acts 13:35 is a quote from Psalms 16:10. Sometimes the wording is slightly different in the Greek Scriptures from the Hebrew because the verses are being translated from different languages directly or because the Greek was quoted from Hebrew to Greek already in the Septuagint that was available at the time and then to English. I am not sure how relevant that is to this particular internal quote from Psalms as one goes from one Bible translation to the next.

While it is true that translations differ regarding this verse, we can deduce which sense would make sense to be there by looking at what Job said about Sheol/Hades at Job 14:13,14.
Job specifically asked to go to Sheol to be concealed from Jehovah's anger. (He falsely believed that God was angry with him.) If it was a place of torment, why would he want to go there?

In the case of Jesus, he died about 3pm on a Friday afternoon, by daybreak Sunday morning his corpse was disposed of and he was raised to life as a spirit creature.
There was not enough time for his body to have appreciatively decayed while it was stored in that cool tomb in March-April.

 

[Thanda]

No that's not true, we are talking about people who just don't want anything to do with God, or someone who likes a drink or two, or someone who is happy just the way they are. No, this concept of god is cruel and has no position in this world we live in today, it may have served its propose in the dark ages, but we are no longer there, such backward thinking has had its time.

People who want nothing to do with God will have nothing to do with him.They will leave this universe: which belongs to God, and go to a place where God is not amongst others who also want nothing to do with God. The question is, what conditions exists outside of this universe. The scriptures tell it is not a nice place. Now you want to blame God for not making the place with which he has nothing at all to do a nice place to live?

 

[psychoslice]

People who want nothing to do with God will have nothing to do with him.They will leave this universe: which belongs to God, and go to a place where God is not amongst others who also want nothing to do with God. The question is, what conditions exists outside of this universe. The scriptures tell it is not a nice place. Now you want to blame God for not making the place with which he has nothing at all to do a nice place to live?

But that is only what you believe, to me its not so, I don't believe in your so called scriptures written by who knows how, in fact I think if there was such a place as heaven I think I would rather be with non believes, it would be much more fun.

 

[Thanda]

But that is only what you believe, to me its not so, I don't believe in your so called scriptures written by who knows how, in fact I think if there was such a place as heaven I think I would rather be with non believes, it would be much more fun.

I think you'll find that your wish will be granted.

 

[Father Heathen]

From the LDS website:

HELL
See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

I believe in hell as described here. Yes, God is just, fair, and merciful. Almost every soul will eventually be redeemed from hell through the atonement of Christ. Personally. I believe hell is a place or state of being where people learn humility and love and prepare for their redemption through Christ.

I find this to be one of the far more sensible concepts of hell.

Justice is when the punishment is proportionate to the crime. No human is capable of anything proportionate to an infinite infliction of maximal torture, thus the common concept of eternal torment in hell is unjust. The idea of hell being more of a temporary correctional prison where punishment and displeasure (not lenient, not excessive, but proportionate to the individual's ill character and conduct) is also part of an actual eye-opening lesson (like maybe experiencing things through their victims' eyes; both the physical and psychological pain, etc. to gain an understanding of the effects of their own actions, etc.) is the one that makes the most sense to me.

I imagine that god would be a being of pure love and pure logic, thus anything devoid of both reason and compassion cannot be of god.

 

[Father Heathen]

Then I guess you don't believe in justice and evil should have free reign to cause damage forever.

Let's say that one day while you're out for a nice afternoon drive you happen to witness a cop pull over another commuter for speeding; let's say for doing 42 on a 35 mph street. The cop proceeds to drag the guy out of his vehicle, bludgeon him with his baton, then as the guy lies bleeding and semi-conscious in the street the cop pulls a container of gasoline from the trunk of his patrol car and begins to douse the speeder with it. At this point you've parked your car and got out to intervene. As the cop pulls some matches out of his breast pocket you implore him not to immolate the poor guy, to which the cop responds. "I guess you don't believe in justice and evil should have free reign to cause damage forever."

 

[Scott C.]

Poor analogy. We could skip school and not be subject to getting an F or any other grade. But we can't skip life. How we regard our life and what we do with it is up to each of us to decide. You evidently feel one of your prime objectives in life is to gain salvation from Hell after you die, which is fine, but in order to do so you need to do or not do certain things. Two of these are personal repentance and atonement. On the other hand, I choose not to believe in such a necessity and ignore it, doing other things with my life. So, while we may both go through this "school of life," I don't believe mine includes any grading system or post-life consequences.

Well so you don't like my analogy? It's not the best analogy ever, but it will do. I'm not trying to convince you that what I believe is true. More than that, I'm trying to explain what I believe, which is different from how you characterize Christianity as a "save me from hell" approach. I agree that not going to hell, although it's a temporary place, is desirable. But God has much bigger plans for us than simply not sending us to hell. Our journey to gain light and truth and to grow in spirituality and knowledge started before we came to mortality and will continue forever into eternity. God wants to make of us, something that we can't make of ourselves. We need the enabling power of the atonement to help us to grow as we could never otherwise grow. God's grace not only saves from sin, but it enables us to overcome weakness and to grow to capacities not attained in any other way. Life is a school of sorts. We chose to be here before we came. We welcomed the growth opportunity. We saw God as the righteous teacher who wants only good for us. I see God as that teacher. I trust him to carve me, or mold me, or enable me to become what I can become. I want to be better. I want to love more, to care more, and to be more obedient and humble. I want to understand the mysteries of eternity and God's magnificent plan for his children. I want to be good for good's sake and not simply to save from hell. God is all about holding our hands, prompting us, carrying us, and enabling us to do this. It's not easy. It requires some hardship and trials in life. It requires some self denial and postponement of gratification. So I'm all in with both feet, with confidence that God is there at the helm of the wonderful journey of life now and forever. I trust and observe that he is not a tyrant and life is far more than dodging hell or getting a good grade and thereby a good reward.

I believe that people who don't now accept Christ still grow and learn in life, although they would find more profound joy through Christ. Eventually almost all people, whether in this life or the next will seek and welcome the atonement, as they come to understand it's meaning and purpose and value and necessity. It won't be a forced subjection. It will be a completely voluntary choice made with joy and gratitude.

This is why I say that DoubtingNate's picture, while cute, does not comprehend the profound depth of the atonement and God's plan for humanity.

 

[InChrist]

Let's say that one day while you're out for a nice afternoon drive you happen to witness a cop pull over another commuter for speeding; let's say for doing 42 on a 35 mph street. The cop proceeds to drag the guy out of his vehicle, bludgeon him with his baton, then as the guy lies bleeding and semi-conscious in the street the cop pulls a container of gasoline from the trunk of his patrol car and begins to douse the speeder with it. At this point you've parked your car and got out to intervene. As the cop pulls some matches out of his breast pocket you implore him not to immolate the poor guy, to which the cop responds. "I guess you don't believe in justice and evil should have free reign to cause damage forever."

I think your little story is totally disconnected to the eternal reality. God is not a cop lighting people on fire. He is a righteous judge, righteous meaning that all His judgments are pure, right, and just. Those who desire to remain bound in their sin and reject the possibility of reform and freedom are given their desire to live immersed in sin and be apart from God's presence and goodness forever. The fire of suffering one experiences in this state apart from God is their own self-ignited fire and torment.

 

[InChrist]

No that's not true, we are talking about people who just don't want anything to do with God, or someone who likes a drink or two, or someone who is happy just the way they are. No, this concept of god is cruel and has no position in this world we live in today, it may have served its propose in the dark ages, but we are no longer there, such backward thinking has had its time.

Well, that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but what if it's an incorrect opinion? I'm not sure why you bring up someone having a drink or two as if something like that is wrong with eternally negative consequences. What if God knows more than you know? Let's say, as the scriptures indicate, He created people for the purpose of living with Him forever in joy, free from sin, pain, and bondage, yet those who refuse to trust His love and goodness end up in a place empty of goodness and joy by their own rejection. There is no cruelty on God's part who desires everyone to live with Him enjoying His beauty and love forever.

 

[Skwim]

If I may interject as we go along.

Well so you don't like my analogy? It's not the best analogy ever, but it will do. For you perhaps, but not for me. I'm not trying to convince you that what I believe is true. More than that, I'm trying to explain what I believe, which is different from how you characterize Christianity as a "save me from hell" approach. Fair enough. I agree that not going to hell, although it's a temporary place, is desirable. But God has much bigger plans for us than simply not sending us to hell. Our journey to gain light and truth and to grow in spirituality and knowledge started before we came to mortality and will continue forever into eternity. God wants to make of us, something that we can't make of ourselves. We need the enabling power of the atonement to help us to grow as we could never otherwise grow. God's grace not only saves from sin, but it enables us to overcome weakness and to grow to capacities not attained in any other way. Life is a school of sorts. We chose to be here before we came. We welcomed the growth opportunity. We saw God as the righteous teacher who wants only good for us. I see God as that teacher. I trust him to carve me, or mold me, or enable me to become what I can become. I want to be better. I want to love more, to care more, and to be more obedient and humble. I want to understand the mysteries of eternity and God's magnificent plan for his children. I want to be good for good's sake and not simply to save from hell. God is all about holding our hands, prompting us, carrying us, and enabling us to do this. It's not easy. It requires some hardship and trials in life. It requires some self denial and postponement of gratification. So I'm all in with both feet, with confidence that God is there at the helm of the wonderful journey of life now and forever. I trust and observe that he is not a tyrant and life is far more than dodging hell or getting a good grade and thereby a good reward.Indeed, what you practice is far different from the goal of Christianity; establishing a means of salvation. However, what you do doesn't change this goal at all. All it amounts to is icing on the cake.

This is why I say that DoubtingNate's picture, while cute, does not comprehend the profound depth of the atonement and God's plan for humanity.

And it's not meant to. All it means to do is present the crux of the Christian religion as succinctly as possible. Let Jesus into your heart and you won't go to Hell.

 

[Scott C.]

If I may interject as we go along.



And it's not meant to. All it means to do is present the crux of the Christian religion as succinctly as possible. Let Jesus into your heart and you won't go to Hell.

Maybe I misunderstand the intent of the picture. I see it as a mockery of salvation, making it look silly, while either ignoring or not understanding the depth of the atonement. It doesn't strike me as an attempt to summarize the gospel of Christ with one picture and a few words, in a way that does the subject justice.

 

[Skwim]

Maybe I misunderstand the intent of the picture. I see it as a mockery of salvation, making it look silly, while either ignoring or not understanding the depth of the atonement. It doesn't strike me as an attempt to summarize the gospel of Christ with one picture and a few words, in a way that does the subject justice.

Actually, Betty Bowers commonly parodies Christianity, sometimes being quite silly and at other times cutting to the core of an issue. DoubtingNate's picture is the latter. Not a parody, but, as I said, illustrating the crux of the Christian religion as succinctly as possible. That said, what do you find so disagreeable about it? Aside from the fact that there's a lot more to Christianity than what's depicted, doesn't it sum up the primary goal of the religion: let Jesus into your heart and you will be saved?

 

[Scott C.]

Actually, Betty Bowers commonly parodies Christianity, sometimes being quite silly and at other times cutting to the core of an issue. DoubtingNate's picture is the latter. Not a parody, but, as I said, illustrating the crux of the Christian religion as succinctly as possible. That said, what do you find so disagreeable about it? Aside from the fact that there's a lot more to Christianity than what's depicted, doesn't it sum up the primary goal of the religion: let Jesus into your heart and you will be saved?

The picture, to me makes it seem that Jesus is trapping us. For example, I show up to someone's door with a shotgun and announce that I'm there to save their lives. They ask me from what. I respond "save you from my blowing your brains out if you don't let me in the house." One would rather that the man with the gun had not come by to "save" them, since had he not come by, there would have been no danger. That's the message I took away and thought it missed the point. But I probably should not dwell on that any more.