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Featured Are today's Egyptians Semites or Hamites?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by calm, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    Today's Egyptians look like Arabs(semitic) and speak Arabic(semitic). So, I would say they are Semites. But many Egyptians say they are the descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. This confuses me a little. How can they be Semites and Hamites at the same time? Because we know that Mizraim (the father of the Egyptians) was a child of Ham (the father of the "Africans") and not a child of Sem.
    Nor do the today's Egyptians look like Put's children (The father of the Lybians) and not like Cush's children (The father of the Ethiopians), although Put and Cush are the two brothers of Mizraim.
    Does anyone have an explanation?

    And if the Egyptians of today are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, then who are they and where are they?
     
    #1 calm, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  2. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Al Sisi and many others remind me of ancient Egyptians...the lips and the eyes.
    But so many Egyptians are either Arab-like or even descendants from Greco-Romans.
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    All of the above, and therefore none of the above as one or the other. Historically Egypt has been a crossroads of people from the Middle East, Africa And Europe. The region of Palatine and Egypt has been shown to be a cross roads of migration from Africa going back to the Neanderthals, and other ancestors of modern humans and before.

    Based on recent DNA research the modern Egyptians can be traced back too ancient Egyptians with significant mixing of other populations.

    From: DNA history of Egypt - Wikipedia

    DNA studies on modern Egyptians
    [​IMG]
    Shared drift and mixture analysis of modern Egyptian with modern populations. Red shows the strongest connection.[16]
    Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to other indigenous Afroasiatic-speaking populations in Maghreb and Horn of Africa, and to Middle Eastern peoples, these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and were maintained by the predynastic period.[17][18]

    A study by Krings et al. (1999) on mitochondrial DNA clines along the Nile Valley found that a Eurasian cline runs from Northern Egypt to Southern Sudan and a Sub-Saharan cline from Southern Sudan to Northern Egypt.[19]

    Luis et al. (2004) found that the male haplogroups in a sample of 147 Egyptians were E1b1b (36.1%, predominantly E-M78), J (32.0%), G (8.8%), T(8.2%), and R (7.5%). E1b1b subclades are characteristic of some Afro-Asiatic speakers and are believed to have originated in either the Middle East, North Africa, or the Horn of Africa. Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E-M78, E1b1b predominant subclade in Egypt, originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to Egypt and Libya[20][21]

    Other studies have shown that modern Egyptians have genetic affinities primarily with populations of North Africa, the Middle East and the Horn of Africa,[22][23][18][17] and to a lesser extent European populations.[24]

    Some genetic studies done on modern Egyptians suggest a more distant relationship to Sub Saharan Africans[25] and a closer link to other North Africans.[18] In addition, some studies suggest lesser ties with populations in the Middle East, as well as some groups in southern Europe.[17] A 2004 mtDNA study of upper Egyptians from Gurna found a genetic ancestral heritage to modern Northeast Africans, characterized by a high M1 haplotype frequency and a comparatively low L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency of 20.6%. Another study links Egyptians in general with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia.[23][26] Though there has been much debate of the origins of haplogroup M1 a 2007 study had concluded that M1 has West Asia origins not a Sub Saharan African origin, although the majority of the M1a lineages found outside and inside Africa had a more recent eastern Africa origin[27] Origin A 2003 Y chromosome study was performed by Lucotte on modern Egyptians, with haplotypes V, XI, and IV being most common. Haplotype V is common in Berbers and has a low frequency outside North Africa. Haplotypes V, XI, and IV are all predominantly North African/Horn of African haplotypes, and they are far more dominant in Egyptians than in Middle Eastern or European groups.[4]

    Recent studies have found out that modern Egyptians (both Christians and Muslims) are the direct descendants of the Egyptians of Ancient Egypt.[28][29]
     
    #3 shunyadragon, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  4. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    It sounds like the ancient Egyptian population would have been a very diverse group in general from the information you provided.

    ...It makes sense then, that the leading group, in such a diverse culture, would express the magnitude of their power through the construction of the Great Pyramids - just as a reminder of that power, should any group dare decide to challenge it.

    Raising one's status to Pharoah, must have been a major display of dominance.

    Then too, Jews, entering the territory, with a God higher than Pharoah may have indeed been enough provocation to order their enslavement... It surely would have been seen as a threat, and even an insult.
     
  5. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    Why did the Jews, as a group, ever even go to Egypt in the first place, where they became enslaved? I forgot the reason on that..

    ...It just seems odd that the Jews have always been leaving their land, and entering into territories where they run into trouble. Even today, sadly.
     
  6. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    ...What would make more sense, for a group who retains it's identity such as the Jews, is to form a major kingdom or empire of it's own, and invite outsiders into it. And maintain it's own authority -the exact opposite of what we've seen historically.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good grief ...
     
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  8. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    In Genesis long after Noah's children have had their children all of the people become one and unite to build a tower at Babel. They are only divided then by language, not by anything else.

    Genesis 11 -- story of the Tower of Babel

    Exodus 34:7 Iniquity is an error which affects generations of children but only up to four. Since the time of Noah there have been at least a hundred, so there is no 'Hammite' iniquity anymore. You cannot be better or worse based upon your parent.

    Deuteronomy 26:16 Fathers and children should not be put to death for each other's wrongs.

    Its very simple if we take these laws as literal to understand that it makes no sense to try to determine whether you are a descendant of Shem or of Ham. The bloodlines are mixed, there is no difference.

    From my other post in the exact same thread with a different title: Who are you?
     
  9. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    Why would God do this?:

    It seems like God never wanted the Jews to hold a major kingdom for some reason, but why..? It would make sense that they do, rather than scattering them into micro-governments under the Egyptians, Roman's, Persians, Spanish and Germans... Where they faced all kinds of problems.
     
    #9 Landon Caeli, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  10. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    Big assumptions to assume everyone is descendants of Noah when there's zero evidence for the flood.
     
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  11. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    Didn't it also confuse their faith though..? Because if the later Pharoah was a descendant of those scattered from Babel, and he worshipped the sun and himself, while enslaving God worshipping Jews, then that seems like a strange move for God to have made to not only divide his people, but for a large portion of them to cease worshipping him.

    Or maybe it was that sun worshiping that caused him to separate them? Either way, the Jews seem to have been short changed from that point on.
     
    #11 Landon Caeli, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  12. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    Information indicates that the earliest source came from Ham's

    Their history indicates that they are a hybrid mixture that finds the features of this mixture in different languages
    Languages of Egypt - Wikipedia

    Egypt was one of the oldest civilizations and was a hotbed for visitors and immigrants
     
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  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I'm strictly talking about this idea of people being either Hammite, Shemmite or Japhethite. Its preposterous to consider that it has any relevance to race today, even if the story is exactly as stated. Both the story of the Tower of Babylon and the story of Noah are part of the same book, so if that book is a History then the 3 races ceased to be 3. Its propositional. The OP takes the story of Ham, Shem and Japheth as relevant but not the story of the Tower. Why?

    I'm not saying that things happened at the tower of Babel as stated in the book or even affirming the OP's assumptions. The story of Babel is the story of gods opposing the ascent of the human race. It says so right in the text. It also says they are the ones creating the confusion that divides us all in order to stymie us, because they don't like that nothing is impossible for us. Unlike in Greek myth we haven't stolen merely the secret of fire but have seized power of moral understanding. The gods fear our unity, their own obsolescence, so they halt us in our construction of this tower, this symbol of our unity. This is what the story says.

    The moral is that we should unify and overlook our differences and not consider one language and one group to be separate. This is inconvenient the OP which seeks an imagined division based upon a story in Genesis and even excludes another story from Genesis in order to do so. Its confounding that anybody would want to divide humanity into three parts, argue that one third of the population is supposed to be the servant of the other.

    What makes it more preposterous is that its put forward as a Christian argument! It is no such thing. Jesus is quoted to say that the greatest among us is the servant of others. Paul states clearly there is neither slave nor free in Christ. There is no sense in trying to instate a division three ways and put an entire group of people (arbitrarily chosen at the convenience of someone else) at risk of enslavement. I loathe it. It is also no excuse for past enslavement, kidnappings and other evil doings.
     
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  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    As a rule, changing your language and cultural identity tends not to change your DNA ;)
     
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  15. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    True, DNA is merely a vehicle for human consciousness. While it is the cultural variations that are the cause of various differences in human interactions. Cultural variation is the root cause of war. Not blood.

    ...And cultural variation is what occured at the tower of Babel according to the scripture... By God, for some reason?

    Seems strange.
     
  16. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    I have never trusted DNA tests and I never will.
     
    #16 calm, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  17. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    There was a famine in Israel, for this reason the Hebrews went to Egypt because there was enough food there. After a long time, when the Hebrews multiplied, Pharaoh decided to enslave them, because he had the fear they could become dangerous to him.
     
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  18. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Publishing its findings in Nature Communications, the study concluded that preserved remains found in Abusir-el Meleq, Middle Egypt, were closest genetic relatives of Neolithic and Bronze Age populations from the Near East, Anatolia and Eastern Mediterranean Europeans.


    "Modern Egyptians, by comparison, share much more DNA with sub-Saharan populations.
    The findings have turned years of theory on its head, causing Egyptologists to re-evaluate the region's history while unlocking new tools for scientists working in the field."
    DNA discovery reveals relatives of ancient Egyptians - CNN
     
  19. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    An inevitable cultural difference even between one religion
    But not necessarily a cause of war, but the parties lose the element of wisdom or the delivery of views and understandable and clear to the other

    We note that there is a conflict between two parties, the reason was the exchange of polemics without relying on substantive points

    Kindness is the key to a successful dialogue among civilizations
    Anger ends life like a volcano that burns everything and needs a period of time for reconstruction

    Sorry intruded interfered in your subject (just want sharing)
    Thank you
     
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  20. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli RF stinks now. Really, really bad.

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    That's wisdom. Thank you.

    <EDIT>
    ...Though I wonder if polemics can be a major aspect in some cultures or civilizations... If they express exclusivity as a common trait.
     
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