Are These Grounds for Legalizing Pedophilia?

[Enai de a lukal]

To put it another way: A pedophile may also be a rapist, but does not mean all pedophiles are also rapists.

Well sure, but all this is to say that not all pedophiles act on their urges.

Allow those who have this attractions to speak for themselves. The problem here is that those people are dehumanized.

I think that eventually culture will change as understanding of such things mature. But I don't know.

Are pedophiles dehumanized even if they do not ever act on their urges- is there a social stigma to even experiencing attraction to children? I would imagine. And that's unfortunate and unfair; we can't really be held responsible for urges we do not choose to have, regardless of how dangerous or inappropriate they may be, if we never act on them. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the dehumanization of those who act on these urges is a "problem"- it would seem to me that a world in which victimization of children, regardless of why it occurs, is treated with leniency is not one I want to live in. The person who is sexually attracted to children is in the same boat with someone who experiences homicidal urges; they can't really be held responsible for the urges themselves, but they, and society, are absolutely responsible for making sure these urges are not acted upon- for obvious reasons.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You're ignoring motivation.

No, I'm saying that the motivation is likely the same; in some cases both rape and child molestation are motivated by sexual attraction, in others, domination, and in others, possibly other motives as well. I don't think the motivation for either is as uniform as you seem to.

 

[dawny0826]

My point is simply that the two are different. Pedophilia and rape are two different things and need to be considered separately, the way we consider rape of adults separately from general adult sexuality.

To put it another way: A pedophile may also be a rapist, but does not mean all pedophiles are also rapists.

I never said that all pedophiles are rapists and if you had presented your views in this way, we would have been in agreeance from the onset.

I would say that the social scorn for people with those desires is an even bigger cause of distress than not being able to fulfill said desires.

I suppose that this is contingent upon the individual and their perceptions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well sure, but all this is to say that not all pedophiles act on their urges.

Not all forms of non-consensual sex are rape. Rape usually is defined as non-consensual penetrative sex and not all adults who participate in sexual activity with children have penetrative sex. That's why there's the term molestation.

But anyway, we're getting away from my main point: that pedophile doesn't equal rapist. It's a waste of time to continue to bicker over that. I'm tired of repeating myself.

Are pedophiles dehumanized even if they do not ever act on their urges- is there a social stigma to even experiencing attraction to children? I would imagine. And that's unfortunate and unfair; we can't really be held responsible for urges we do not choose to have, regardless of how dangerous or inappropriate they may be, if we never act on them. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the dehumanization of those who act on these urges is a "problem"- it would seem to me that a world in which victimization of children, regardless of why it occurs, is treated with leniency is not one I want to live in. The person who is sexually attracted to children is in the same boat with someone who experiences homicidal urges; they can't really be held responsible for the urges themselves, but they, and society, are absolutely responsible for making sure these urges are not acted upon- for obvious reasons.

Comparing being attracted to children to wanting to kill people? Drop the sensationalism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I'm saying that the motivation is likely the same; in some cases both rape and child molestation are motivated by sexual attraction, in others, domination, and in others, possibly other motives as well. I don't think the motivation for either is as uniform as you seem to.

What I'm saying is that rapists are really in their own psychological category. I know the psychology of pedophiles and it is not about domination.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Comparing being attracted to children to wanting to kill people? Drop the sensationalism.

Actually, its not that big of a stretch. I would imagine most people would agree that homicide and child molestation are of at least comparable moral quality- but even so, my point remains, which is that both people have an urge to do something bad- the urge itself isn't immoral, but acting on it is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually, its not that big of a stretch. I would imagine most people would agree that homicide and child molestation are of at least comparable moral quality

Due to the sensationalism of it. Sorry, but I don't think rape, molestation and murder are equal in their offensiveness.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

What I'm saying is that rapists are really in their own psychological category. I know the psychology of pedophiles and it is not about domination.

How can you know the psychology of all pedophiles? How can you say what the motivation is or isn't for all cases of child molestation?

Not only is there no way for you to know this, its prima facie implausible, and I suspect, not born out by whatever scientific literature there is on the matter. I would bet anything that child molestation- like rape, or any other human behavior- does not have any single, uniform motivation, but varies from case to case.

 

[dawny0826]

What I'm saying is that rapists are really in their own psychological category. I know the psychology of pedophiles and it is not about domination.

But a pedophile can also display some of the very same sociopathic characteristics. If they've molested or raped a child, they place their own pleasure and satisfaction above the well being of the child and these traits are shared by sociopaths. I would label a pedophile a sociopath if they've victimized a child.

Rapists and pedophiles demonstrate a lack of empathy for their victim, and both demonstrate a type of dominance by projecting their will upon another.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Due to the sensationalism of it. Sorry, but I don't think rape, molestation and murder are equal in their offensiveness.

That's fine; it doesn't change my point. And, as it happens, I would agree; child molestation is worse than murder. But this point is moot, so let's drop it; what is salient is that the urge to have sexual relations with children is not immoral, or something one is responsible for, but acting on it most certainly is (just like the urge to harm/kill someone).

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Not all forms of non-consensual sex are rape. Rape usually is defined as non-consensual penetrative sex and not all adults who participate in sexual activity with children have penetrative sex. That's why there's the term molestation.

Sort of splitting hairs here. The point is that child molestation appears to share all the salient characteristics of rape.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How can you know the psychology of all pedophiles? How can you say what the motivation is or isn't for all cases of child molestation?

Good grief. Did I say I know the psychology of all pedophiles? No. I am talking about pedophilia itself.

But a pedophile can also display some of the very same sociopathic characteristics. If they've molested or raped a child, they place their own pleasure and satisfaction above the well being of the child and these traits are shared by sociopaths. I would label a pedophile a sociopath if they've victimized a child.

Rapists and pedophiles demonstrate a lack of empathy for their victim, and both demonstrate a type of dominance by projecting their will upon another.

The point still stands that they are two different things.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sorry, I communicated that badly. I meant the majority of pedophiles never act on their attraction to children, according to my mother-in-law. Not that the majority of people are sexually attracted to children.

Meh, no probs. I'd rather just ask for clarification than run off on a tangent when it wasn't what you meant. Outside my area of expertise, but this seems a pretty reasonable assertion by your mother-in-law.

Really, it's pretty irrational to assume pedophiles are any worse at controlling inappropriate sexual impulses than any other category of people.

Yeah. Maybe.
When I first read this, I nodded and agreed. Now as I type, I'm wondering. I don't think you're wrong, I just wonder if it's a logical assumption, rather than something we really know.

So, I'm sexually attracted to women. Not something I can directly control, but I can largely control my behaviour with relation to this. I'd be pretty surprised if I EVER got to a point where my behaviour towards a woman I found attractive equated to my behaviour to a woman I didn't find attractive, and some of that is physiological anyway.

So there are behaviours beyond my control (for sake of argument) that are not inappropriate anyway. Do they become inappropriate if the object of my affection is 8 years old? I'm not talking about specific sex acts here.

Dunno...just something I was pondering. Perhaps a pedophile is less able to avoid inappropriate sexual impulses since the boundaries on what is appropriate are vastly different to a 'normal' person?

Thinking out loud, really.

 

[dawny0826]

Good grief. Did I say I know the psychology of all pedophiles? No. I am talking about pedophilia itself.


The point still stands that they are two different things.

Pedophilia comprises pedophiles who are human beings with complexities.

We know that rape and pedophilia have to be examined through separate lenses. Got that.

But, you continue to speak of pedophiles, using blanket label terminology to describe their psychology, while repeatedly rejecting the commonalities between rapists and pedophiles.

Rape is an action. Pedophilia is an orientation of sorts. Pedophiles can be rapists and when a pedophile violates a youth, they are not much different than a rapist in that they are elevating their own needs and desires above that of their victim.

So, it's likely that a rapist and a pedophile who act upon their urges share sociopathic and other psychological characteristics.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Pedophilia comprises pedophiles who are human beings with complexities.

We know that rape and pedophilia have to be examined through separate lenses. Got that.

But, you continue to speak of pedophiles, using blanket label terminology to describe their psychology, while repeatedly rejecting the commonalities between rapists and pedophiles.

Rape is an action. Pedophilia is an orientation og sorts. Pedophiles can be rapists and when a pedophile violates a youth, they are not much different than a rapist in that they are elevating their own needs and desires above that of their victim.

So, it's likely that a rapist and a pedophile who act upon their urges will share sociopathic and other psychological characteristics.

'
My issue is that people keep conflating the two. They assume that a person who rapes or molests a child is automatically a pedophile and this is not really the case.

 

[dawny0826]

'
My issue is that people keep conflating the two. They assume that a person who rapes or molests a child is automatically a pedophile and this is not really the case.

Most people aren't going to care enough to appropriately label the piece of **** who rapes or molests a child. SCUM. There you go.

When we're talking about people who refrain from heinous acts...such differentiation can be examined and discussed.

But, when someone has violated a child, screw them! Who the hell cares whether or not they were motivated because they were attracted to the child or they were simply motivated by domination and cruelty? The damage is done. Society is under no obligation to empathize or sympathize with the culprit.

Whether rapist or pedophile in politically correct terminology, the piece of **** likely utilized coercion, deceit and/or manipulation to violate the innocent. And that my friend, makes for a sociopath.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Most people aren't going to care enough to appropriately label the piece of **** who rapes or molests a child. SCUM. There you go.

When we're talking about people who refrain from heinous acts...such differentiation can be examined and discussed.

But, when someone has violated a child, screw them! Who the hell cares whether or not they were motivated because they were attracted to the child or they were simply motivated by domination and cruelty? The damage is done. Society is under no obligation to empathize or sympathize with the culprit.

Whether rapist or pedophile in politically correct terminology, the piece of **** likely utilized coercion, deceit and/or manipulation to violate the innocent. And that my friend, makes for a sociopath.

I care about the differences. But I might get into a field dealing with mental health so I'm not too interested in the moral outrage of the masses. I'm trying to understand.

 

[Shrew Tamer]

I'd say it depends on the current human situation in whatever area that person lived in for overall survival of that group, if you were an indigenous person living in the middle of a rainforest and the life expectancy was 35-40 years then I would think it would make sense for the tribes survival one would want younger females to produce offspring without harming the female physically (for you want her to produce more over time) and you shouldn't breed animals in their first heat. In most modern societies I would think that the current age limits suffice for the situation and realities

 

[Alceste]

Meh, no probs. I'd rather just ask for clarification than run off on a tangent when it wasn't what you meant. Outside my area of expertise, but this seems a pretty reasonable assertion by your mother-in-law.



Yeah. Maybe.
When I first read this, I nodded and agreed. Now as I type, I'm wondering. I don't think you're wrong, I just wonder if it's a logical assumption, rather than something we really know.

So, I'm sexually attracted to women. Not something I can directly control, but I can largely control my behaviour with relation to this. I'd be pretty surprised if I EVER got to a point where my behaviour towards a woman I found attractive equated to my behaviour to a woman I didn't find attractive, and some of that is physiological anyway.

So there are behaviours beyond my control (for sake of argument) that are not inappropriate anyway. Do they become inappropriate if the object of my affection is 8 years old? I'm not talking about specific sex acts here.

Dunno...just something I was pondering. Perhaps a pedophile is less able to avoid inappropriate sexual impulses since the boundaries on what is appropriate are vastly different to a 'normal' person?

Thinking out loud, really.

Yeah, it's a odd one to mull over (and not pleasant). It's not at all easy or comfortable to compare lusting after kids to how we feel about the people we're attracted to. I'm sure what you're mainly into with women is women who are also into you, and that if your feelings are not reciprocated you somehow manage to avoid raping them. As do I, with men I'm attracted to that don't or can't reciprocate. Why would pedophiles be any different?

They might get it out of their system with fantasy, wanking, or consensual role playing with other adults. We don't all get exactly what we want, sexually speaking. My husband looks nothing like Johnny Depp, but somehow we manage to muddle along.

 

[dawny0826]

I care about the differences. But I might get into a field dealing with mental health so I'm not too interested in the moral outrage of the masses. I'm trying to understand.

You cannot expect society to approach a rapist or a pedophile with empathy and sympathy.

That can be YOUR job.