Are there Reasonable Moral Grounds to Oppose Open Relationships and Marriages?

[Averroes]

None of that is true of the people I know in open or poly relationships. What you say you might do in an open relationship is not at all how my friends behave. They are honest, committed to their loved ones, and very skilled at communicating. It seems like you don't understand this because you haven't experienced it.

Ok key word "people you know" or should I say words?

My experiences are mine and yours are yours my experiences and impressions are different and thus my opinion. Leave it at that.

 

[Drolefille]

None of that is true of the people I know in open or poly relationships. What you say you might do in an open relationship is not at all how my friends behave. They are honest, committed to their loved ones, and very skilled at communicating. It seems like you don't understand this because you haven't experienced it.

Ditto.

I feel like there's an assumption that "open relationship" means utter and total free for all, which is possible, but not necessarily or even likely true. However there's a distinct lack of vocabulary available to describe them, as terms vary in their usage.

I propose (for the purposes of further discussion):
Total Open: Individuals can do whatever they want with whoever they want. They just have some commitment to each other that leads them to identify in a relationship.
Swingers: Couples engage in sexual activity outside of their relationship, but rarely if ever emotional connection.
Polyamorous: One or both in a couple can engage in multiple emotional and/or sexual relationships outside of the original relationship.

(And the list goes on)
Poly-closed relationships: More than 2 people in a committed relationship who are not seeking outside partners
Poly-fidelity: Only participating in committed relationships outside of the primary relationship.

I'm botching some of these, but definitions and relationship structures was actually my thesis topic before I said "Screw it" and took my comprehensive exam instead.

 

[Drolefille]

Ok key word "people you know" or should I say words?

My experiences are mine and yours are yours my experiences and impressions are different and thus my opinion. Leave it at that.

You should probably say "words."

You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.

well you've provided but nonsensical silly responses. So yeah I am done. I have only put what I've experienced. Perhaps if you were to put more into what you said than garbage My response to you would be more positive. I have been with someone in an open relationship. It was entirely sexual, with the exception of our outings. I guess for you guys that doesn't qualify

You're assuming everything about all open relationships based on one experience where you also admitted you didn't respect her and were still having sex with her.

And you don't listen to those of us who are in, or know multiple people in relationships that contradict that. We're not denying your experience, we're saying it isn't definitive.

 

[Songbird]

Ditto.

I feel like there's an assumption that "open relationship" means utter and total free for all, which is possible, but not necessarily or even likely true. However there's a distinct lack of vocabulary available to describe them, as terms vary in their usage.

I propose (for the purposes of further discussion):
Total Open: Individuals can do whatever they want with whoever they want. They just have some commitment to each other that leads them to identify in a relationship.
Swingers: Couples engage in sexual activity outside of their relationship, but rarely if ever emotional connection.
Polyamorous: One or both in a couple can engage in multiple emotional and/or sexual relationships outside of the original relationship.

(And the list goes on)
Poly-closed relationships: More than 2 people in a committed relationship who are not seeking outside partners
Poly-fidelity: Only participating in committed relationships outside of the primary relationship.

I'm botching some of these, but definitions and relationship structures was actually my thesis topic before I said "Screw it" and took my comprehensive exam instead.

Good definitions.

Wait, poly/open doesn't mean wanton and extremely careless and promiscuous sex?!

 

[Averroes]

There's the same level of contract in a poly/open relationship as there is in a monogamous relationship. You seem to be assuming that no one cheats in a monogamous relationship which we know is a lie.

If I don't care whether you're involved with several women, then it doesn't matter.
If I do care and you're honest then you're participating in an ethical open relationship.
If I do care and you're dishonest, then you're cheating.

There is the same level of 'contract' in an open relationship as there is in a closed one.


You seem to be under the assumption that open relationships are all an 'anything goes' free for all.
If that's the relationship setup - lets call it "total open" - then yes, you're under no obligation to tell your partner AND you're still being faithful to the relationship.
If your relationship rules require consent of the other partner(s) - lets call it "open fidelity" then yes, you're under a moral/ethical obligation to acquire consent otherwise you're a cheater.

You seem to think that without monogamy is anarchy and the freedom to be unethical. This is not the case. Being an unethical cheating jerk makes you an unethical cheating jerk no matter how many people you're doing it to.


So you admit to having sex with someone you didn't respect? And you think I'm the one with commitment issues? Suffice to say, we're quite committed to each other, and I really sincerely doubt you'll believe me when I say it, but I don't really care as it doesn't change the reality of the relationships. (Define commitment to you and I'll provide a dozen examples of how they've met that criteria outside of monogamy.)

You seem to think that a person cannot commit to more than one person. How does a parent manage to commit to more than one child?


When someone claims to need no social contact other than one's non-existant wife because one owns a video game console, I do tend to assume a lack of sincerity.

As others have pointed out, I find you to be intellectually dishonest in your responses on that matter. The idea that you'll pair bond with your wife and cease all other human contact because it is unneeded is either incredibly naive, or willfully ignorant.

I guess this involves geographical influence because in LA, most so called "open relationships" are predominantly sexual in nature. Again, nobody out here sits down and discuss what the do's and don'ts of what their commitment is. Yes I said I don't respect women who are in a polygamous situation because I want the attention of one person. In my early days this is why I had sex with so many women. Committed to multiple people? Laughable. Again they aren't in Los Angeles California for sure and if they are, must be in thr Northern part.

 

[Averroes]

You should probably say "words."

You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.


You're assuming everything about all open relationships based on one experience where you also admitted you didn't respect her and were still having sex with her.

And you don't listen to those of us who are in, or know multiple people in relationships that contradict that. We're not denying your experience, we're saying it isn't definitive.

Omg one experience? I told you one experience. I've been with women whose husbands get of watching another man be with their wife. I have had husbands ask me to be with their wife etc etc....I merely told you one experience lol

 

[Averroes]

You should probably say "words."

You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.


You're assuming everything about all open relationships based on one experience where you also admitted you didn't respect her and were still having sex with her.

And you don't listen to those of us who are in, or know multiple people in relationships that contradict that. We're not denying your experience, we're saying it isn't definitive.

Omg one experience? I told you one experience. I've been with women whose husbands get of watching another man be with their wife. I have had husbands ask me to be with their wife etc etc....I merely told you one experience lol

I have a wild past that is why this is why I feel this way in this thread so of course my experiences shape what I feel about so called open relationships.

 

[Drolefille]

Good definitions.

Wait, poly/open doesn't mean wanton and extremely careless and promiscuous sex?!

*gasp* next thing you'll say is that people can cheat in monogamous relationships!

I guess this involves geographical influence because in LA, most so called "open relationships" are predominantly sexual in nature. Again, nobody out here sits down and discuss what the do's and don'ts of what their commitment is. Yes I said I don't respect women who are in a polygamous situation because I want the attention of one person. In my early days this is why I had sex with so many women. Committed to multiple people? Laughable. Again they aren't in Los Angeles California for sure and if they are, must be in thr Northern part.

In all honesty, no. I'm not chalking it up to geographical differences, but to your apparent ignorance of how poly and mono relationships work.

There are polyamorous groups in Los Angeles. Your lack of knowledge is partially a result of your willing disrespect for people who make choices different than your own.

Omg one experience? I told you one experience. I've been with women whose husbands get of watching another man be with their wife. I have had husbands ask me to be with their wife etc etc....I merely told you one experience lol

I have a wild past that is why this is why I feel this way in this thread so of course my experiences shape what I feel about so called open relationships.

What baffles me is that you'll have sex with people you disrespect, and then claim that it is their relationships that are immoral.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm good friends with one, more like acquaintances with the other, both know that their husbands and I are in relationships. In the case of the first, it was her idea to have an open relationship, she has had boyfriends before although none now. In the second, she'd given him a permission slip years ago, and gave the official 'sign off' on me when she met me.

I've spent the night at both houses many many times. No one is in the dark about me or any of the relationships

Well, as I've stated about a million times on this forum, what consenting adults do is their own business as far as I'm concerned.

No need for more details though - you've told me about all I need to know. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Averroes]

*gasp* next thing you'll say is that people can cheat in monogamous relationships!


In all honesty, no. I'm not chalking it up to geographical differences, but to your apparent ignorance of how poly and mono relationships work.

There are polyamorous groups in Los Angeles. Your lack of knowledge is partially a result of your willing disrespect for people who make choices different than your own.


What baffles me is that you'll have sex with people you disrespect, and then claim that it is their relationships that are immoral.

Which is why I called it my past.

I don't respect women who are incapable of not loving me totally and have the "need" to expand this free love with other men. If I were one of your bf's of course I wouldn't tell you all that I am saying on the forums. That's the trick. No older person is going to sit down and lay ground rules out.

In my experience in the past women say:

"Look my boyfriend/husband knows I see other men. I have a boyfriend/husband. I want a NSA (No Strings Attached) relationship. The only rule I've known is to not have feelings because she has a primary lover. The only concern of that lover is that they don't come back and give their partner an STD.


Again maybe where you live people do things differently and this is why I say the idea of open relations blur the line of fidelity. In my experiencr if I am sexing a woman up good better than her primary partner 9 times out of ten, she is coming back. Sorry but I am not ignorant of these relationships, merely explaining my view

 

[Drolefille]

Well, as I've stated about a million times on this forum, what consenting adults do is their own business as far as I'm concerned.

No need for more details though - you've told me about all I need to know. Thanks for clarifying.

*laugh* You sound a bit worried that I'm going to give you more details. Or like you thought you'd catch me out on something. Sorry, ethical and honest here.

 

[Drolefille]

Which is why I called it my past.

I don't respect women who are incapable of not loving me totally and have the "need" to expand this free love with other men. If I were one of your bf's of course I wouldn't tell you all that I am saying on the forums. That's the trick. No older person is going to sit down and lay ground rules out.

Sorry, how old is too old to lay ground rules out? Because we did it, and continue to do it. And your typical married couple does it during the wedding ceremony, and, if they're smart before that and after it too. You continue to think that my boyfriends are uncommitted and hiding their feelings. So sorry that you are unwilling to see the truth.

In my experience in the past women say:

"Look my boyfriend/husband knows I see other men. I have a boyfriend/husband. I want a NSA (No Strings Attached) relationship. The only rule I've known is to not have feelings because she has a primary lover. The only concern of that lover is that they don't come back and give their partner an STD.

So that was their type of relationship. Not all open relationships are that type of relationship.

Again maybe where you live people do things differently and this is why I say the idea of ope

Look up polyamorous groups in L.A. Trends vary by region, religion and population but just because you essentially had an interaction with "total open" and/or "swinger" couples doesn't mean the other types don't exist in your area. They're just apparently not sleeping with you.

 

[Kathryn]

*laugh* You sound a bit worried that I'm going to give you more details. Or like you thought you'd catch me out on something. Sorry, ethical and honest here.

"It was just your imagination...running away with you...!"

Everybody sing along!

I'm not WORRIED about your details - I just don't need to hear them. You've been quite clear enough.

 

[Drolefille]

"It was just your imagination...running away with you...!"

Everybody sing along!

I'm not WORRIED about your details - I just don't need to hear them. You've been quite clear enough.

That's why I was confused: you asked, I answered, and then you tell me not to tell you more like I was about to call your cell and tell you about my sex life. No worries, mate.

Might I ask why you asked then?

 

[Kathryn]

That's why I was confused: you asked, I answered, and then you tell me not to tell you more like I was about to call your cell and tell you about my sex life. No worries, mate.

Might I ask why you asked then?

Sure.

I was asking so I could understand your parameters. That is what we're talking about here, right?

 

[Averroes]

Sorry, how old is too old to lay ground rules out? Because we did it, and continue to do it. And your typical married couple does it during the wedding ceremony, and, if they're smart before that and after it too. You continue to think that my boyfriends are uncommitted and hiding their feelings. So sorry that you are unwilling to see the truth.


So that was their type of relationship. Not all open relationships are that type of relationship.

Look up polyamorous groups in L.A. Trends vary by region, religion and population but just because you essentially had an interaction with "total open" and/or "swinger" couples doesn't mean the other types don't exist in your area. They're just apparently not sleeping with you.

You have heard of the idea that our past makes us who we are right? Yeah sure, I accept that there is a plethora of various polygamous open relationships in Los Angeles but in my life, I've only ran into the types I mentioned. However, because of my experiences I've developed a negative view because I simply look down on men and women and their idea of free love. That is my opinion. For the sake of this discussion I am not saying I look down on you because I don't know you. I am only defining what I want and don't want for myself.

It is illogical and philosophically difficult to produce demonstrative proof that fidelity on an open relationship level is the same as monogamous relationships. I mean, there are gray areas and I've exposed one gray area

 

[Drolefille]

You have heard of the idea that our past makes us who we are right? Yeah sure, I accept that there is a plethora of various polygamous open relationships in Los Angeles but in my life, I've only ran into the types I mentioned. However, because of my experiences I've developed a negative view because I simply look down on men and women and their idea of free love. That is my opinion. For the sake of this discussion I am not saying I look down on you because I don't know you. I am only defining what I want and don't want for myself.

Defining and knowing what one wants for oneself makes sense and it's what everyone should do.
Your experiences will of course shape that, but when we're talking about an aggregate situation - open relationships in general - and you're given new information, it makes sense to incorporate that new information into your preconceptions rather than insisting that all women/men/open relationships/turtles are the same.

It is illogical and philosophically difficult to produce demonstrative proof that fidelity on an open relationship level is the same as monogamous relationships. I mean, there are gray areas and I've exposed one gray area

One cannot prove a negative. *
Instead the proof is on the claim that there is a significant difference.
How have you exposed a gray area? Your assumption was that if you were in an open relationship you wouldn't feel any sort of responsibility towards fidelity. That is a flaw in the hypothetical "you" not a flaw in the concept of relationships. Obviously some people feel the same about monogamous relationships or there would never be any cheating. Infidelity's a relationship problem, not an open relationship problem.


ETA: *Research in the area of polyamory is ongoing. There aren't that many studies at this point that could actually prove a lack of difference.

Also polygamy =/= polyamory. There are connotations to polygamy - religious, misogynistic, oppressive, abusive that though not always true are so ingrained in modern society that polyamorous people - who are incapable of marrying and thus being polygamous - willingly separate themselves from the term.

 

[McBell]

well you've provided but nonsensical silly responses. So yeah I am done. I have only put what I've experienced. Perhaps if you were to put more into what you said than garbage My response to you would be more positive. I have been with someone in an open relationship. It was entirely sexual, with the exception of our outings. I guess for you guys that doesn't qualify

Yeah, because YOUR experiences with open relationships is the defining factor for every single open relation, right?

 

[Averroes]

Defining and knowing what one wants for oneself makes sense and it's what everyone should do.
Your experiences will of course shape that, but when we're talking about an aggregate situation - open relationships in general - and you're given new information, it makes sense to incorporate that new information into your preconceptions rather than insisting that all women/men/open relationships/turtles are the same.

One cannot prove a negative. *
Instead the proof is on the claim that there is a significant difference.
How have you exposed a gray area? Your assumption was that if you were in an open relationship you wouldn't feel any sort of responsibility towards fidelity. That is a flaw in the hypothetical "you" not a flaw in the concept of relationships. Obviously some people feel the same about monogamous relationships or there would never be any cheating. Infidelity's a relationship problem, not an open relationship problem.


ETA: *Research in the area of polyamory is ongoing. There aren't that many studies at this point that could actually prove a lack of difference.

Also polygamy =/= polyamory. There are connotations to polygamy - religious, misogynistic, oppressive, abusive that though not always true are so ingrained in modern society that polyamorous people - who are incapable of marrying and thus being polygamous - willingly separate themselves from the term.

Um you said infidelity is a relationship problem and not an open relationship problem? That is self contradictory. Open relationships are relationships! Again with monogamy there is the idea that one will be solely dedicated to one, in an open relationship sure let's assume there is that dedication on the same level as monogamy, even still if we are to define anything we need to define what is commitment in an open relationship because frankly open relationships in my opinion are nothing more than commited dating relationships w/benefits.

You giving me information is new sure, but not a universal truth, but neither is mine.

Why should a man dedicate himself to one woman when she also shares herself with another man? Why shouldn't that man have someone for himself? At what point in an open relationship do you define cheating?

 

[Averroes]

Yeah, because YOUR experiences with open relationships is the defining factor for every single open relation, right?

It defines what I see here around me. Not what you think or anyone else. Like I said there are gray areas in open relationships.