Are Religions and Gods manmade?

[Trailblazer]

How did you prove it to yourself that Krishna was, not only real, but a manifestation of God? Or Adam? Or Noah? Or Abraham? Because, as I ask every time, Baha'is don't accept the story of these people as written in the Scriptures as being true.

I did not have to prove that to myself because I accept what the Baha'i Faith teaches about them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? A guy thinks God is speaking to him. And believes that God wants him to sacrifice his son. Would that be delusional?

It would not be delusional if God was really speaking to that guy.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you "believe" in a delusional cult leader?

Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was delusional because I believe He was a Messenger of God who received communication from God.

So why do you come back and and ask me this question?
So you "believe" in a delusional cult leader?

I do not believe in a delusional cult leader, I believe in Baha'u'llah, who I believe was a Messenger of God.

Why not blindly believe any of the other delusional self-proclaimed "messengers"/cult leaders who claim THEIR "messages" came from "god"?

I do not believe in ANY delusional self-proclaimed "messengers"/cult leaders who claim THEIR "messages" came from "god."

 

[Trailblazer]

Hertha is the goddess of the Earth who reveals all to anyone who listens.

What does she reveal and how does she reveal it?

 

[Ancient Soul]

Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was delusional because I believe He was a Messenger of God who received communication from God.

So why do you come back and and ask me this question?
So you "believe" in a delusional cult leader?

I do not believe in a delusional cult leader, I believe in Baha'u'llah, who I believe was a Messenger of God.

I do not believe in ANY delusional self-proclaimed "messengers"/cult leaders who claim THEIR "messages" came from "god."

I mean, you keep saying that anyone who claims to have communicated with God is delusional, so WHY blindly take the word of one delusional cult leader over the word of all the thousands of delusional cult leaders?

Their "word/self-testimony" is just as invalid as Bahá’u’lláh "word/self-testimony".

Did you throw darts at their names and the first cult leader's name you hit, was the one you would follow?

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean, you keep saying that anyone who claims to have communicated with God is delusional, so WHY blindly take the word of one delusional cult leader over the word of all the thousands of delusional cult leaders?

Their "word/self-testimony" is just as invalid as Bahá’u’lláh "word/self-testimony".

Did you throw darts at their names and the first cult leader's name you hit, was the one you would follow?

I never said that that anyone who claims to have communicated with God is delusional. I only ever said that I do not believe that anyone other than a Messenger of God who claimed to have received messages from God really received messages from God. If I used the world delusional once or twice I take that back because I do not know who is delusional, I do not like that word, and it does not further any fruitful dialog.

I did not throw darts. I investigated Baha'u'llah and determined for myself that He was a Messenger of God and then I believed that He was one, even though I cannot prove that to anyone else. Having determined that He was a Messenger of God, I believed what He wrote about the twofold station of Messengers of God and how that makes them uniquely qualified to receive communication from God. I just explained this to a woman on another thread, so here is that explanation.

A Messenger of God is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to believe Him at all. Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Which is still just an opinion that does not negate my statement of:

"From visions, dreams, NDE/OBEs, ancient cities, writings, verbal stories passed down thru the generations, all tell of a God. That cannot be ignored."

There are just too many people having spiritual "encounters/experiences" with God to explain away that easily.

Like my own personal experience during my childhood NDE/OBE when I met God, that was imparted to me that he was the all powerful creator and ruler of everything. I was just a toddler, and this happened W-A-Y before I even knew anything about the concept of God. There are just too many accounts like that to discount."

I hardly expect many to leave their experiences as 'unknown' rather than pin them to some belief, and perhaps is why we have so many different religious beliefs - and other beliefs that have eluded science so far. For me, I have to put them aside, since arguing ad populum is still not a satisfactory explanation. All being mostly anecdotal.

And regarding this:

"From visions, dreams, NDE/OBEs, ancient cities, writings, verbal stories passed down thru the generations, all tell of a God. That cannot be ignored."

Such might not be ignored, but perhaps explained, if they all tend to come from the same place. A child is dependent upon its mother (usually), such that the mother is essentially a god to the child. Might this be where we are primed for gods? Such that we earlier assigned agency to those things that we didn't understand and just refined our beliefs as we became more sophisticated.

PS And would you place the same value on what comes from the past via testimonies, together with the differences in education and knowledge from where many come from? We only have to look at the history of medicine to know that people will believe the most ridiculous things - and psychiatry over the last century alone speaks of more stupidity in beliefs.

 

[joelr]

I
I did not throw darts. I investigated Baha'u'llah and determined for myself that He was a Messenger of God and then I believed that He was one, even though I cannot prove that to anyone else. Having determined that He was a Messenger of God, I believed what He wrote about the twofold station of Messengers of God and how that makes them uniquely qualified to receive communication from God. I just explained this to a woman on another thread, so here is that explanation.

.

How would you determine a messenger of God if the evidence was such that you cannot even demonstrate it to someone else?

The idea that a universal God would give messages to a person instead of giving everyone the knowledge internally or at least poofing a holy book into reality, maybe something that could not be duplicated by earthly means and would last forever?
Especially considering EVERY religion has a few prophets who get the secret God messages and tell every one else in the community. But we know that the majority of the thousands of other religions actually had people just making stuff up or basing it on other religions with slight changes.
So we know it's a terrible way to pass on information. But no matter, God seems to think this is fine.
Regardless of all the BS channelers we have even right now. Bashar, Abraham Hicks and so on...

So prophets say things that wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine a smart person coming up with on their own. Yet still some people will consider this one to actually be the real one?

That quote about messengers isn't remarkable at all? It reminds me of stuff chaneller Jane Roberts wrote:
"Desire, wish, and expectation rule all actions and are the basis for all
realities. Within All That Is (God), therefore, the wish, desire, and
expectation of creativity existed before all other actuality. The
strength and vitality of these desires and expectations then became in
your terms so insupportable that All That Is (God) was driven to find the means
to produce them....

books and books going on and on about manifesting reality and God and so forth.
Point is, people can write this stuff from their own creative minds. Jane was actually an incredibly creative writer and she had a large following of the Seth material she channeled.
Again, I think she probably made it all up and used many sources for ideas like Jung. Any messenger who was well read can almost surely create some interesting sounding messages.
But none will say pi out to digits we don't know or explain clearly a scientific concept we will soon discover. They are always very literate in all ways but cannot explain anything outside of vague theology. He could have described galaxies, clusters, super clusters and some simple ideas to show beyond a doubt there is something here.
Instead we get concepts that sound nice but cannot be demonstrated and often set limits on a God.

I find the Seth material to be incredibly dense and some concepts even appeared in later physics. I don't believe she was channeling anything other than her creative mind.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let me fix this for you ...

The hypothesis that various understandings of god(s) as codified in religions are human inventions, explains all the relevant facts.​

There. Much better.

No.

It was fine the way I wrote it.

Therefore?

Therefor it is reasonable to assume that all gods and religions were human inventions while there is zero reason to assume that they aren't.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

you mean like “common descent “?

No.

Common descent is a demonstrable and independently verifiable genetic fact

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The criteria I use is that any religion that was revealed by God through a Messenger is a real religion.

So, as long as their is a human claiming some god "revealed" things to him / her, you'll just believe it?

Sounds like extremely poor criteria. Great way to fall victim to con-man though.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The evidence is everything around us. Do you see?

Is this the equivalent of the rather juvenile "look at the birds! look at the trees!"?
If yes: I see birds and trees. Now what?

Do you really search for the real truth or does your belief that God does not exist satisfy you? Discovery takes effort. Discovery takes one being open to all possibilities. Discovery takes a Wide view and great thinking.

Discovery also takes actual discovery.
Just believing claims, are not discoveries. Just making claims after "dreams" or "visions" or what-have-you, aren't discoveries either.

Predicting gravitational waves as a result of massive collisions in space and then building a machine to detect such waves and then actually detecting them... now that's a discovery.
Finding out about DNA. That's a discovery.

What "discoveries" are you talking about?

Truth is not always an agreeable thing. Will you stop your journey short? Is it all just too much work? How badly do you really want to know?

About as badly as I want to know about undetectable unicorns or gravitational pixies.
What you seem to be saying is that you really really WANT to believe in a god and will go through great lengths to find justification for it.

I have no such desire. If things exist and manifest, they'll leave detectable evidence and that evidence will lead us to those things. It's how we know about radiation, black holes, electro-magnetism, DNA, atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, molecules, etc. All things that we can't see, hear or smell without help from technology.

Didn't stop us from actually discovering them. And before those discoveries, nobody was saying that they "wanted" to believe in black holes or atoms or protons or radiation. It's just that these things manifest and leave detectable evidence and by studying the evidence, it leads us to those conclusions / discoveries.

Do you understand the difference in approach here?

I can point you the direction to Discover the evidence you require, however your journey to Discover it must be yours.

What does that mean?
Could you say the same about gravity, electro-magnetism, radiation,...?

Do you search for something to Believe in or do you search for Truth??

I search for verifiable knowledge. You can call that truth if you want. But not with a capital 'T'.
I have no use for faith based "Beliefs".

Are beliefs good enough for you or must you Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Truth is not believing and accepting stories served up on a silver platter.

Truth is that which corresponds to observable and independently testable reality.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Referring to religions,

Trailblazer said: I believe that some are real and some are not and of the real ones many offshoots came into being. So that means I believe that religions other than my religion are real. I cannot prove that, but there is evidence that indicates it is true.

Paul said: There is more evidence they are false.

I know that the Bible contradicts itself, but how is that evidence that religions I believe are true are false?

Proving your one is false isn't our job. It's your job.

But anyone who claims there is life on every planet says people he knows nothing about are messengers, dreams of universal peace, etc. Is a fake.

Come up with any evidence your one is for real and we can all consider it.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That's right. I do not have access to the Mind of God, so I do not know what God wants...
All I can do is conjecture based upon what I read and see in the world.

So show us what you read and see that convinces you.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I see that as a good thing.

Which part? There were two parts to my post, 3,000 years or Man learning it's all fake.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It's a matter of belief. Obviously I believe the Gods created humanity. Others believe otherwise.

Others know Man is the work of evolution. You can't call a scientific fact a belief.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. Understand God's actions and you understand God. If you assume God does not exist, study all that's around you. When you understand why it exists this way, you will understand God.

Discovery leads to new ideas and new avenues of Discovery. Open one door and it leads to more doors that can be opened.

There is so much to Discover that this will be a lifetime journey and beyond.

Widen your view. Advance your thinking. Much more knowledge exists beyond the surface.

Ebb and flow of knowledge is a good tool to have. Example: If you were to build a car, there are things all cars must have such as an engine, a way to stop, steer and a place to sit. This helps on the easy pieces to get started. Got it??

If all the physics add up perfectly, so will the people factor. Everything about God will add up perfectly. This is the base by which one should not fall under. To do so would be to wander from the truth in favor of beliefs. Do not take this wrong turn.

You are lucky. I point the way. No one pointed for me when I reached the point where I needed to know. On the other hand, maybe pointing the way creates a short cut that should never be done. Perhaps, a key part of the journey is wanting to know no matter what thus finding the way.

As I have said, this path takes lots of work and is not easy. On the other hand, if you become really accomplished, you might get a Visit and the evidence you seek. At this point God will no longer be a mere Belief.

Unlike what religion teaches, there are no demands of your choices. God has never been about threats, beliefs,following, condemning and punishing. I have found no religion that really understands God at all. On the other hand, they are all carrying pieces of the puzzle.

I merely point for those who might be ready.

Be who you must. It's a part of the plan!!

That's what I see. It's very very clear yet there is so much more yet to Discover. This hungry student moves forward.

Everything around us is a product of evolution. No god came into it.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You are misrepresenting what I believe.

What I believe is that only Messengers of God can receive communication from God. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was delusional because I believe He was a Messenger of God who received communication from God.

What is it that makes you convinced your guy is communicating with god?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Sorry, but your opinion changes nothing. "I" have all the proof that "I" need.

Evolution isn't an opinion.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I never said that that anyone who claims to have communicated with God is delusional. I only ever said that I do not believe that anyone other than a Messenger of God who claimed to have received messages from God really received messages from God. If I used the world delusional once or twice I take that back because I do not know who is delusional, I do not like that word, and it does not further any fruitful dialog.

I did not throw darts. I investigated Baha'u'llah and determined for myself that He was a Messenger of God and then I believed that He was one, even though I cannot prove that to anyone else. Having determined that He was a Messenger of God, I believed what He wrote about the twofold station of Messengers of God and how that makes them uniquely qualified to receive communication from God. I just explained this to a woman on another thread, so here is that explanation.

A Messenger of God is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to believe Him at all. Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

So nothing concrete persuaded you. All you've done is present a word salad to justify your belief.