Are Mystical Experiences Considered Possible in Your Religion?

[Unveiled Artist]

@Quintessence

Sunstone did a good explanation of ultimate reality on #73.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

A younger person, not yet programmed by any religion, or any other world view, can just encounter 'something' which can turn their life about, and set into motion a search for an explanation.

Yes, that is sort of what happened to me. Though clearly there are different explanations and different methods of exploration, and choices are made down the line, at least partly based on individual character and preferences. It can be a hit and miss process sometimes.

 

[Windwalker]

Whats the difference between mystical experience and everyday experience? There isnt more than one reality (no multiple lifes) regardless of how we refer to alternate realms whether in mind or physically.

Wha makes reality ultimate?

What makes reality ultimate? A complete lack of obstructed view.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, that is sort of what happened to me. Though clearly there are different explanations and different methods of exploration, and choices are made down the line, at least partly based on individual character and preferences. It can be a hit and miss process sometimes.

Happened to me too, that's why I mentioned it. After that ... who knows how you're lead down a particular path ... or not?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What makes reality ultimate? A complete lack of obstructed view.

I think Ken Wilber said it best. but I can see that (your post), if Im understanding you correctly.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Happened to me too, that's why I mentioned it. After that ... who knows how you're lead down a particular path ... or not?

Indeed, and who knows where a particular path will lead? But of course that is what makes it such an interesting journey.

 

[Vinayaka]

Indeed, and who knows where a particular path will lead? But of course that is what makes it such an interesting journey.

Oh, some paths are quite clearly marked. Too many souls have tread them before and left signposts. Why not benefit from that?

 

[psychoslice]

What do you mean by "the illusion of the mind body organism"?

Of course there is a body, just as there is the apperance of what looks like water in the desert, which is only a merage. We see ourself as a mind body orgainism, when in fact we are much more than that, we are the source, for that is all there is, the body is just a bubble appearing and disappearing, just as bubbles appear and disappear when watching something boiling.

 

[Quintessence]

You make good points, but I wonder how much of the difference here isn't really just nomenclature. It seems there is a kind of relatively rare, cross-cultural, human experience which has at least one identifying component: That it involves a sense or perception of unity or oneness. That experience was what I was referring to in the title and OP of this thread as a mystical experience. I perhaps should have called it "an experience of oneness" so as to not confuse so many people into thinking I was insisting that all the various and sundry things people call "mystical experiences" were the topic of this thread. At any rate, your posts have been very helpful in allowing me to understand that an experience of oneness seems to be foreign to paganism. Thank you for that!

Hmm. It is very difficult to say how much of the difference is nomenclature versus a true difference in underlying experience. It is hard to articulate things that are fundamentally experiential with symbolic stand-ins like words. Words feel inadequate, and using them is like trying to catch incense smoke. The smoke will just curl around your fingers and escape, refuse to be held. These experience simply... are. When I'm in the moment, I try to avoid labeling. Labeling defines, defining limits, limits change how I can experience something. It can disenchant and ruin the ecstasy of the moment. But I digress...

At any rate, different Pagans will approach the nomenclature differently, too. Those who are less starkly polytheistic in particular are unlikely to have as many hangups about words like "unity" or "oneness." Words like that appeal to perennial philosophers, to monotheists more.

 

[roger1440]

I broadly agree, though I think the boundaries are blurred. A while back on another forum somebody was describing what has obviously been a profound experience of "oneness", we worked out eventually that they had, for the first time, been fully in the present. And then if we are talking about a feeling of connection, there is the question of what exactly we assume we are connecting WITH, and I would suggest the answers we come up with are shaped by the assumptions and expectations we bring to the experience. So it is all rather subjective.

During our everyday perception of life we are the focal point. In other words there is the individual and the remaining is wrapped around us. The key word is individual. the root of the word is "divide". This division is created by the ego. During a mystical experience we forget ourselves. The dividing line between us and the rest of the universe vanishes. We are no longer apart from the universe, we are part of it. Division of any type is gone, even time. There is no sense of past, present or future, only the eternal now. There is no right or wrong, only what is meant to be. There is a overwhelming sense of well being, since we want nothing, yet have everything. There is a contentment or stillness beyond the confines of words to describe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm. It is very difficult to say how much of the difference is nomenclature versus a true difference in underlying experience. It is hard to articulate things that are fundamentally experiential with symbolic stand-ins like words. Words feel inadequate, and using them is like trying to catch incense smoke. The smoke will just curl around your fingers and escape, refuse to be held. These experience simply... are. When I'm in the moment, I try to avoid labeling. Labeling defines, defining limits, limits change how I can experience something. It can disenchant and ruin the ecstasy of the moment. But I digress...

At any rate, different Pagans will approach the nomenclature differently, too. Those who are less starkly polytheistic in particular are unlikely to have as many hangups about words like "unity" or "oneness." Words like that appeal to perennial philosophers, to monotheists more.

Questions for you...

If you labeled your experience (for conversation purposes), would that be degrading your experience or making your experience not real because there is a couple names to describe it?

This is how I see it.

I am taking American Sign Language (ASL) Interpreting. In ASL (if you aren't familiar with the language) and any other signed language when you describe something you (any person) cannot say "this is a car" and the Deaf person asks "what's a car?" and as an interpreter, one can't say "it can't be described." So each experience, frame work, or story that builds on language in ASL needs a descriptive label.

I compare this to English and this subject because English we use labels and "mystical terminology" we need description. In ASL, one can't just go off labels, it is a combination of both.

I notice that you say language is limited. Maybe the English language is limited but I don't see language limited as a whole. For example, if I said in English

"I'm going to the store down the street to buy some cookies before I pick up the kids at school." That's fine in English but in ASL (another language) its more:

You know store. Shoppers. With the red sign, brick front across from Dunkin Donuts. Yes, that one. I go (walk, run, depending on handshape) to the store. Store, cookies left ail, way in the back, I get cookies, went to cashier. Buy cookies, finished. Next, school. Kids there. Car drive school. Front of school. Kids there. Pick up.

If language is limited or restrictive, then how can a native signer explain a mystical experience?

There needs to be some descriptive labels, words, in addition to body language and expression involved with describing what a mystic experience is. It's a whole lot easier in ASL to describe what a mystic experience is, using labels, etc without making it limiting. Since ASL is an expressive language and you have to literally set up the scene and feelings etc and tell the story or conversation within that scene.

Okay, I used ASL as an example that to describe an experience one needs labels in ASL, we use a lot of descriptive labels among other things. In English, we use context. However, in both, labels can be used to describe mystical experiences especially for conversational purposes.​

English is limited as a language but words whether signed or spoken in a foreign language still have a poetic capability to describe experiences without summing it up into collective nouns like mystic, oneness, holistic, etc. Language does not need to be limited just because we cannot find the words (or choose not to) find words to describe what we are experiencing. In ASL, when I sign, it would be an insult to say to someone who is Deaf "I had a fantastic experience when I went to see the Bon Jovi concert" and the Deaf person asked, "what happened?" and you just said "It was wonderful. They had this... and we are all cheering" but in ASL, you have to describe the actual feelings, not just what you heard but how you heard it as well and so forth.

And these things can be interpreted in the English language. It won't be 100 percent because ASL is an expressive language but it's not impossible.

So my point is, because it isn't impossible in one (or probably more) language describe a mystic experience in its exact words, why would English be any different?

Other than preference, how do you see language as limited to where your experiences cannot be described by them?

That, and if a native signer asked you about your experience with your faith, how would you address your experience if labels and descriptions (can't think of the word you used) put down or eradicate, I guess, the experience itself? If experiences just are (which they are), how do you define it as an experience in and of itself?

A lot of native signers, for example who are Deaf (rather than deaf) use poetry and its a part of their culture. So, having description to mystical experiences is essential to their culture. I'm not saying it has to be in yours or your point of view. I'm just stressing the importance of how we communicate as human beings and in the English language, we live on labels so if we are to answer a question with a "yes" as our answer, what examples can we give to back up our answers?
​

I know I'm piggy backing on your reply to someone else.

Oneness and wholeness isn't always monistic or have a monotheist outlook. It just means an experience that made you connected or bond in whatever faith you practice.

Since, of course, we can't video tape you practicing your faith, and you're not a native signer (right?), I guess this question is more curiosity. If you were a native signer, though, I'd wonder how is it possible to have an experience that you can't describe without feeling the "egotism of labeling"? What about labels makes you feel it's making your experience less credible than it would if left indescribable (for conversational purposes)? If it's private experience, that's different.​

Even just for conversational usage. As a signer, it's essential to have descriptive labels. I know we are speaking in English, but, unless its a private experience, I'd wonder why English would be so limiting to where only Edgar Allan Poe can describe his experiences but Joe Smoes like us cannot.

 

[Quintessence]

Lol... @Carlita, you are making me want to learn American Sign Language. It wounds wonderful to an environment-minded person like myself who would love to be setting scenes when talking about everything, but would get odd looks if I started doing that in English.

With respect to labeling experiences as potentially degrading them or making them feel less real... I know I would not say that putting symbols (words, images, or whatever) makes it feel less real. The experiences will always feel less real when I am not experiencing them right now. If it is not the right now it is an echo, a memory, fading, indistinct, unravelling. It is like that moment when you wake up from a dream and you know the dream was vivid and important, but the memory of it slips so utterly from your mind that you cannot stop it and are left only with vague feelings, and sometimes nothing at all. The unravelling and poorness of human memory is a reason why it can be important to journal and write about the experiences.... but at the same time, the words will never quite get you back to that moment from back then. I suppose this means that symbols like words help preserve, they do not degrade.

Yet at the same time, the words we put to things can limit how we think about them. Not sure "degrade" is the right word to put to that phenomena. To use a story, it is that phenomena that happens when two people have a common experience and then start labeling it differently based on their understanding of the world. One person experiences something amazing, and they call it a "miracle" from their god. That impacts how they think about it - means they probably pay close attention to it. Another person experiences the same amazing thing, and they call it "coincidence" and throw it into their mental trash bin, stop paying attention to it. When I explore the otherworlds (not something I talk about much on the forums), I'll meet various characters there. They don't exactly have name tags, and sometimes I catch myself assuming that I know who they are. I might label them as some particular god I'm familiar with, when that is not at all who they are. And if I do that, I might start treating them differently - and improperly - based on those assumptions. Good rule of thumb if you want to get to know someone is not to stick labels on them. It can become a stereotype. Get to know the depths of who they are. Then, maybe, label things.

Sorry... got more rambling and stream-of-consciousness than I usually do. Happens sometimes when I come off of reading a good book... lol.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

During our everyday perception of life we are the focal point. In other words there is the individual and the remaining is wrapped around us. The key word is individual. the root of the word is "divide". This division is created by the ego. During a mystical experience we forget ourselves. The dividing line between us and the rest of the universe vanishes. We are no longer apart from the universe, we are part of it. Division of any type is gone, even time. There is no sense of past, present or future, only the eternal now. There is no right or wrong, only what is meant to be. There is a overwhelming sense of well being, since we want nothing, yet have everything. There is a contentment or stillness beyond the confines of words to describe.

That is a good description - feelings of timelessness, unity, stillness and peace. My caveat was that people different assumptions about what such experiences MEAN, which is where it all gets very subjective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm.

Lol...you are making me want to learn American Sign Language. It wounds wonderful to an environment-minded person like myself who would love to be setting scenes when talking about everything, but would get odd looks if I started doing that in English

lol. ASL is pobably is up your alley. I use ASL sometimes for prayer because when Im doing ritual, Ill say, prayer commonly think of doesnt have the right words to convey what I want to express both with my body and with words. It lets you be in the moment because setting scenes causes you to be in the scenes and BE (not on my lap top for italics) the prayer or ritual.

They don't exactly have name tags, and sometimes I catch myself assuming that I know who they are. I might label them as some particular god I'm familiar with, when that is not at all who they are. And if I do that, I might start treating them differently - and improperly - based on those assumptions. Good rule of thumb if you want to get to know someone is not to stick labels on them. It can become a stereotype. Get to know the depths of who they are. Then, maybe, label things.

No direspect. If you called them Bibabelonob it would mean nothing and wont carry assumptions of what you may think the character may be if you used English. Instead, its kind of using verbal gestures only for the purpose of communication and interaction. I dont know. If a poet felt his words would make him and others assume he means or stereotyping something he didnt mean to say, would he be a poet?

<--This poet has to have some form of expression. I try to do it with objects but its similar to how you see words. They become objects I 'think' should be used in a manner their historical story describes their proper usage. So, using it any other way would be taking away from the saredness of the said object because Im not part of that culture.

However, words and signs I use come from me. So, I connet more with words and how they interpret the connection and environment we live in. Im not keen on labeling everything I see but using it in context and prayer kind ot takes the stereotype out.

 

[roger1440]

That is a good description - feelings of timelessness, unity, stillness and peace. My caveat was that people different assumptions about what such experiences MEAN, which is where it all gets very subjective.

In addition to what I had mentioned earlier I would like to add there is a sense of non containment. Its as if you can reach out and touch the ends of the universe. Then there is the awareness of knowing. Its not knowing any particular thing like geometry or what ever. Afterwards you say to yourself, "I understand now, the veil has been lifted".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

In addition to what I had mentioned earlier I would like to add there is a sense of non containment. Its as if you can reach out and touch the ends of the universe.

Yes, I know what you mean. In Buddhist meditation the first formless jhana is called "infinite space".