Archeaological evidence for the Bible

[Autodidact]

I'll accept that in which case heaven is beyond space. As to how far that is probably cant be answered. For example, some current models of the universe say that it is cuved on itself and the fartherest you can go is all the way around to your butt.

So the water came from outside of space, outside the universe? and went back there?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So the water came from outside of space, outside the universe? and went back there?

That is what scripture states.

 

[Autodidact]

That is what scripture states.

I suppose a simple yes or no would be too difficult. The trouble with scripture, sandy, is that many people think that it states may different things, so I'm asking what you believe, for whatever reason. If you get your beliefs from scripture, fine, that's your prerogative. I'm just asking what your position is.

So I guess you would consider this all to be completely outside the realm of science, not detectable by science in any way? So you believe that the natural and spiritual world interact in observable ways?

 

[gnostic]

If Eisenhower ran for President on a story that through his righteousness, he arranged to have the D-Day landing force carried across the English Channel by angels, then I'd treat it with the same skepticism.

What's outlandish is portraying God as acting through David to kill Goliath and thereby bring greater glory to the God of Israel.

Killing someone with a stone and a sling, which require skills, one thing. Claiming victory in battle because of angels, on the other hand is totally different. I would be skeptical too if any angel or God was involved in either one.

The normal weapon of shepherd (eg. sling, club or staff) can quite effective and deadly. All it require is patient and lots of practice. It doesn't require any divine or angelic intervention for David's victory against Goliath.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I suppose a simple yes or no would be too difficult. The trouble with scripture, sandy, is that many people think that it states may different things, so I'm asking what you believe, for whatever reason. If you get your beliefs from scripture, fine, that's your prerogative. I'm just asking what your position is.

Gosh, I thought that was simple enough, but just for you, yes, the water came from heaven which is beyond space.
Now what scripture says and what people think can be two different things. Some people do have trouble reading simple english.
And finally if you can measure to the end of space, you may assume that Heaven is just beyond that. Now as far jsut how to measure "just beyond that" I don't have a cle as the rules of the known universe may not apply to the "just beyond."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Killing someone with a stone and a sling, which require skills, one thing. Claiming victory in battle because of angels, on the other hand is totally different. I would be skeptical too if any angel or God was involved in either one.

The normal weapon of shepherd (eg. sling, club or staff) can quite effective and deadly. All it require is patient and lots of practice. It doesn't require any divine or angelic intervention for David's victory against Goliath.

Seems simple enough to me. that penguin (and a lot of others) want to add to more to the story is not uncommon.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Gosh, I thought that was simple enough, but just for you, yes, the water came from heaven which is beyond space.
Now what scripture says and what people think can be two different things. Some people do have trouble reading simple english.
And finally if you can measure to the end of space, you may assume that Heaven is just beyond that. Now as far jsut how to measure "just beyond that" I don't have a cle as the rules of the known universe may not apply to the "just beyond."

Where do you think that Scripture says that water came from outside the universe?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I suppose a simple yes or no would be too difficult. The trouble with scripture, sandy, is that many people think that it states may different things, so I'm asking what you believe, for whatever reason. If you get your beliefs from scripture, fine, that's your prerogative. I'm just asking what your position is.

So I guess you would consider this all to be completely outside the realm of science, not detectable by science in any way? So you believe that the natural and spiritual world interact in observable ways?

True - the Scripture doesn't say anything on its own. Everything is interpretation... some interpretations can be related or unrelated to the text.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Where do you think that Scripture says that water came from outside the universe?

Genesis 7:11, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

and Genesis 8:2, "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained..."

The foundation for heaven being beyond space is in Genesis. In the beginning God created Heaven and earth. In Genesis 1:6, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." God put the firmament between the heaven and earth of Genesis 1

That firmament is where the sun the moon and the stars are found, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth..." Genesis 1:16-17.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Seems simple enough to me. that penguin (and a lot of others) want to add to more to the story is not uncommon.

That part is simple enough. What follows, i.e. that this action is evidence that the God of Israel is a true and mighty God, and that David and the army of Israel are fighting on the side of God, is not. Since this is how the incident is portrayed in the Bible, I don't see how acknowledging this is "adding more to the story".

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That part is simple enough. What follows, i.e. that this action is evidence that the God of Israel is a true and mighty God, and that David and the army of Israel are fighting on the side of God, is not. Since this is how the incident is portrayed in the Bible, I don't see how acknowledging this is "adding more to the story".

Could you give the scripture that portrays the incident that way please?

 

[Melissa G]

Beyond the OT account, what evidence is there for such an encounter ? As far as I'm aware, there are no Bronze Age texts from Israel to back up the biblical account.

Thanks
melissa

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could you give the scripture that portrays the incident that way please?

I get the feeling that you know the Bible much better than I do and could probably recite these passage from memory, but I'll indulge you:

1 Samuel 17:36-37 (NIV):

36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The LORD who delivered me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine."

1 Samuel 17:45-47 (NIV):

45 David said to the Philistine, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the LORD will hand you over to me, and I'll strike you down and cut off your head. Today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. 47 All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves; for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give all of you into our hands."

Key points, attributed to David:

- the armies of Israel are the armies of the Living God, i.e. Israel is on the side of God.
- David fights against Goliath in the name of the Lord, and his success will be evidence of the Lord's intervention, i.e. David is on the side of God.
- David proclaims that by his defeat of Goliath, "the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel", i.e. the God of Israel is a true and mighty God.

See?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Key points, attributed to David:

- the armies of Israel are the armies of the Living God, i.e. Israel is on the side of God.
- David fights against Goliath in the name of the Lord, and his success will be evidence of the Lord's intervention, i.e. David is on the side of God.
- David proclaims that by his defeat of Goliath, "the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel", i.e. the God of Israel is a true and mighty God.

See?

And this is different than say, winning one for the Gipper, how?

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., Sandy, after considerable thought I think I understand you. Please correct me if I'm wrong about what you're saying.
The water came from outside this natural realm that we can perceive and learn about, by a miracle. It came from outside our universe and returned there, all by miracle. We do not, and should not, expect to account for it by scientific observation. The only explanation for this event is a miraculous one. Is that correct?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Genesis 7:11, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

and Genesis 8:2, "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained..."

The foundation for heaven being beyond space is in Genesis. In the beginning God created Heaven and earth. In Genesis 1:6, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." God put the firmament between the heaven and earth of Genesis 1

That firmament is where the sun the moon and the stars are found, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth..." Genesis 1:16-17.

In every case "heavens" is plural in Hebrew.

I don't understand how you mix what you think the universe is with "waters" and "heavens" in Genesis.

This article will be instructive: Bible passages about cosmology

 

[angellous_evangellous]

O.K., Sandy, after considerable thought I think I understand you. Please correct me if I'm wrong about what you're saying.
The water came from outside this natural realm that we can perceive and learn about, by a miracle. It came from outside our universe and returned there, all by miracle. We do not, and should not, expect to account for it by scientific observation. The only explanation for this event is a miraculous one. Is that correct?

Noah's flood must have been one hell of an event of "waters" from outside the universe some how were unleashed onto the earth. Wow.

 

[Autodidact]

Hope:
I am disappointed to receive no response from you to a rather long post containing lots of scientific information. Disappointed but not surprised, as my long experience is that quite often when I start providing evidence, creationists disappear.

Nevertheless I wanted to return to you to explain what I found disturbing about your earlier post, depending on what you meant by an assumption of uniformitarianism, as that term is ambiguous. If all that you meant is that geology rules out in advance the possibility of any cataclysmic events, that is not true. Not only does modern geology allow for cataclysms of all kinds, in fact, it posits them. There is no presumption that everything that we see can only have resulted from slow, gradual processes, only a conclusions that many/most of them did.

On the other hand, if you are asking why scientists in general assume that nature tends to have laws which remain constant, and further assume that we can base our knowledge of the past on observations in the present, assuming constant and uniform natural laws, then you are questioning one of the most fundamental tenets of science, without which science itself is not possible. This willingness to basically make science impossible, in order to promote a creationists agenda, is just one of the reasons scientifically minded people find creationism threatening--it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And this is different than say, winning one for the Gipper, how?

"Winning one for the Gipper" is not evidence that you won the game because you were the most worthy to win it, or because you were on the side of God, or because God's own hand protected you and ensured your success.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

O.K., Sandy, after considerable thought I think I understand you. Please correct me if I'm wrong about what you're saying.
The water came from outside this natural realm that we can perceive and learn about, by a miracle. It came from outside our universe and returned there, all by miracle. We do not, and should not, expect to account for it by scientific observation. The only explanation for this event is a miraculous one. Is that correct?

Yes. Yet as physics advances and begins to consider things like folding space and moving throught in order to travel great distances it might be concieved as to how water cound move from outside space to earth. I just don't believe that we will understand the mechanics of Heaven by applying the rules of this dimension to another.