Apostates of Islam

[AbuKhalid]

Yes we are aware of that brother and i can say with a loud voice the invention of 'Abrogation of Verses' is the epitome of 'kufr' to the infallibility and completeness of the Qur'an. And any Muslim who has a doubt in the infallibility and completeness of the Quran should reconsider his faith. D you really believe a pious Muslim will accept such concept about Allah's protected message? It is absolutely anacceptable.

ProudMuslim I will try to answer the rest of your points sometime tonight but I do believe verses have been abrogated. Some have had their ruling abrogated while the verse remains and some had the verse abrogated while the ruling remains and in some instances both where abrogated. If there is no abrogation then I could drink alcohol and pray facing Jerusalem based on particular ayat.

مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْر ٍ مِنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْء ٍ قَدِير
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?
2:106

 

[ProudMuslim]

ProudMuslim I will try to answer the rest of your points sometime tonight but I do believe verses have been abrogated. Some have had their ruling abrogated while the verse remains and some had the verse abrogated while the ruling remains and in some instances both where abrogated. If there is no abrogation then I could drink alcohol and pray facing Jerusalem based on particular ayat.

مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْر ٍ مِنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْء ٍ قَدِير
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?
2:106

Yes brother read the entire verse "but We substitute something better or similar", where is the other verse that speaks about killing the married adulterer? The prohibition of alcohol came in phases and all these phases are in the Qur'an, the same is with 'qiblah', it is in the Qur'an.

What you are saying is totally different. You are saying there is a "verse" regarding the stoning to death to adulterer but was not compiled in the Qur'an ( الشيخ والشيخة إذا زنيا فارجموهما" and/ or that hadiths can add new commandments to complete the Qur'an!! The Qur'an is complete and perfect. In the verse you just posted Allah (SWT) is clearly saying He will substitute it and all the words of Allah is in the Qur'an and the examples you have provided are the in the Qur'an. So you have not proven anything that can convince me to believe in the stoning of adultrer or killing of an apostate.

There is nothing that will change my mind about the completeness and infallibility of the Qur'an. It is shameful that some Muslims fall into the "abrogation of verses" trap.

Exactly. The absence of such an ayat proves that there is no contradiction. Of course you can wrongly interpret other verses to imply this but your interpretation is wrong.

Because there is not any verse in the Qur'an it is simply means there is no divine commandment regarding that specific topic. Allah (SWT) has said that He perfected the Qur'an. The contradiction is the fact that some try to search other sources for divine commandments when Qur'an must be the prime source. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) have done many things that were not mentioned in the Qur'an, he was trying to show us how to get extra 'thawab' and 'ajar' but whatever that is not mentioned in the Qur'an is not taken as 'fardh', 'halal' and 'haram' but 'sunnah', 'mustahab' and 'makrooh'. Both are not equal. If i have not performed the 5 salat is not the same as if i didn't perform the nawafel for example. The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) did not add faridah that was not imposed by Allah (SWT).

 

[England my lionheart]

Individuals can't kill an apostate. This can only be done within an Islamic state.

Good,i'm glad,i wish this crime (killing Apostates) was'nt practised in Islamic states,shame on them.

 

[Fatihah]

But we don't debate that at all, that's fair enough. This is just a cop-out on your part to equate apostasy with attacking Muslims or Islam in general.

Unfortunately murder, and that's what it, murder, is used against the innocent who simply follow their heart; they aren't going around preaching their new religion or shooting Muslims, they're just living a life following their idea of God, risking death for it. That's not fair, and you should as a human being be able to understand how that's not right, and how the idea of killing someone for leaving Islam in the Name of God Almighty is the most despicable act one can do.

Response: A cop-out? How so? What exactly is being, as you say, "copped out"? What I've said is the islamic ruling on apostasy to which neither you or anyone else can contridict with the qur'an or sunnah. You've just stated,"But we don't debate that at all, that's fair enough". So then there really is no issue, according to your own words, on the ruling of apostasy according to islam.

 

[Fatihah]

You are going against what Muhammed himself said. He said "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". He doesn't distinguish between those leave Islam and want to live in peace and those who leave Islam and then kill Muslims. He just says point blank "If someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". This proves that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Response: Then if he doesn't distinguish it then what gives you or anyone the right to do so? This hadith has no context. So for anyone to give a ruling on just this hadith would be wrong. It doesn't even specify what religion. It doesn't say islam in the hadith. It doesn't specify what reasons or circumstances in which he said it. It doesn't explain what is meant by "discard". Discard in what way? It's not specified. So if you are claiming that this hadith means that muslims are to kill anyone just for leaving islam is you putting your own meaning to the hadith. This hadith is not clear enough.

 

[kai]

So there is no reference to the Penalty of death for Apostacy in the Quran am i right?

doesnt it say that Allah will punish them in the next world?



The Qur'an states that God (in Arabic, Allah) despises apostasy. See verses [Qur'an 3:72], [Qur'an 3:90],[Qur'an 16:106],[Qur'an 4:137] and [Qur'an 5:54] which deal with apostasy directly and which state that Allah will punish and reject apostates in the afterlife. Except 16:106-109, the verses that discuss apostasy all appear in surahs identified as Madinan and belong to the period when the Islamic state had been established.
W. Heffening states that in Qur'an "the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only," adding that Shafi'is interpret verse [Qur'an 2:217] as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in the Qur'an. Wael Hallaq holds that "nothing in the law governing apostate and apostasy derives from the letter of the holy text."[5]
The dissenting Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a significant Shi'a religious authority, states that the above verses do not prescribe an earthly penalty for apostasy.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

 

[Breathe]

Response: A cop-out? How so? What exactly is being, as you say, "copped out"? What I've said is the islamic ruling on apostasy to which neither you or anyone else can contridict with the qur'an or sunnah. You've just stated,"But we don't debate that at all, that's fair enough". So then there really is no issue, according to your own words, on the ruling of apostasy according to islam.

The cop-out is that you keep mentioning how an apostate should be put to death if they attack Muslims. We know that, that's fine by me. We're not talking about that.

What we are talking about, until you decide to throw off the discussion, is about those who simply change their faith. Those who aren't attacking Islam, those who aren't going around killing Muslim children, we're interested in those who simply think:

"I don't believe this any more".

By many Muslims' interpretations, they must be put to death. I do not agree with the traditional "ruling of apostasy" of Sunnah-followers, at all.

Obviously, you either can't even begin to comprehend that someone can change their faith because they don't find truth in the religion, or you don't want the topic to go into that area because you know that innocent ex-Muslims are killed simply because they follow their heart.

Every time I've pointed that across to you, you've diverted the subject.

Now, answer.

Should an innocent ex-Muslim, one who does not wish harm on Muslims, be killed?

Is that simple enough? Can you answer that?

 

[.lava]

But this is the problem. You keep asserting that someone added something to Bukhari yet when challenged you fail to give evidence but rather keep repeating it over again. I think you really need to study the compiling of ahadith a little more because they where rigorously checked and many of them came through various chains. Bukhari's collection is the most authentic book in existence other than the Quran and not a single hadith in it contradicts the Quran.

My point about all the scholars was not that they are guilty of this fabrication but rather that they all accept Bukhari as authentic. There is no dispute about its authenticity. Do you not think that it is just possible that it may have been a consideration of theirs to check if the hadith contradict the Quran? Do you not believe they have studied in depth this very issue? Yet they still all take the position that Bukhari does not contradict the Quran. Which of course it doesn't.

You say the rest of the scholars would follow without knowing. You expect us to believe this yet also believe that a few lay people today have managed to see the contradiction. Surely its obvious that those who believe there is a contradiction are the ones in error.

In a Sahih hadith the Prophet said:

"My community will never agree upon an error"

as you see his community does not agree.

This means that the entire Ulamma will never agree at any time on something which is wrong. The Ulamma agreed completely on the authenticity of Bukhari. The Ulamma agreed completely on the death sentence for apostasy. Of course your line of arguing just requires you to now claim that this is a fake hadith inserted by a munafiq with no evidence.

i am trying not to hurt your feelings. are you aware of this? i think i should mention it because my intention is to tell he truth, not to be rude or unkind. so i would stick with Qur'an;

33:66 On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire, they shall say: O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!

33:67 And they shall say: O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;

33:68 O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.

Exactly. The absence of such an ayat proves that there is no contradiction. Of course you can wrongly interpret other verses to imply this but your interpretation is wrong.

my dear friend, sunnah is not 'command' and you are talking about killing apostates as sunnah. killing is never a sunnah. it could only be a command of Allah and if it was, it would take its place in Qur'an. because Qur'an is where we learn commands and we learn sunnah from hadiths.

Well there would be a verse to contradict that but I think its beside the point. There are fake hadith and there is agreement on it. People didnt just write down what they wished and passed it on to us as the sunnah of the Prophet. There where rigourous checks and investigations into the content of the hadith and the narrators. Even the slightest problem would means that it was dismissed.

people who dared to add hadiths in hadith books were mean people. their aim was to damage Islam. i am not talking about ordinary people here, they are evil people who did that.

You are aware there are fake ahadith and this is true, but your misinterpreting this to mean that you can just pick and choose which are fake and which are not.

i do not chose. killing people over beliefs is against Islam.

So no ones going to hell? Allah condemns the apostate as the worst of people.

of course people would go hell and heaven. but it is not Allah who send them to hell. people do it to themselves. show me where Allah says apostates as the worst people. even worse than religious leaders who have double punishment?

I agree. People however rebel against this and rebel against society. Your argument in some places seems to be that of a pacifist. Do you not agree with any physical punishment for any crimes based on "love happiness and peace"?

your personal rights end where my personal rights begin. if i violate your rights i would be punished and if you violate my rights you should be punished. btw i do not understand what you're asking.

Islam is soft on the believers and harsh on the disbelievers. The Prophet was a Prophet of war and a Prophet of peace. You have gone to an extreme in concentrating soely on one side of Islam (peaceful) while rejecting the other part. You should rather take the middle path. Is this for example an ayat talking about peace:

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
AT-TAWBA 5

This speaks about waging war on non Muslims until they repent and live under Islam. This was one of the latter verses in the Quran and it abrogated many of the earlier verses that the people on this forum seem to always quote.

They should point it out to you but hide it from others, as was the way of the Prophet (SAW).

war? war means killing. we are not talking about war here. we are talking about killing an unarmed man for using his free will. if there was war, of course people must defend.

Thats just silly. There are proscribed punishments for certain acts. If your implying that my line of thought leads to the above then you must by default concede that you seek to lash the liar and gossiper based on the fact that you agreed in this thread that adulterers should be lashed. See how silly it is?

Neighter can they. But the problem is you have called people munafiqs. You have not pointed out an indidual but you have said particular hadith where made up by munafiqs. Now them hadtih have a chain of transmission and if that for example consisted of 5 people then your claim means that one of them 5 people of Bukhari himself is the munafiq. It can't mean anything else. These people where great Muslims and there was no doubt of there Islam. Massive investigation was done into their lives before the hadith could be recorded and nothing could be found which would speak against their character, yet you can say one of them was a munafiq. This is clearly sinful on your part.

i do not know 5 people. anyone can use name one of those 5 people. there is not protection from Allah to stop them.

None of who? And what gives you the authority to reject Sahih hadith? Are there any scholars who reject Bukhari other than those of the Rafidah?

we, Muslims. that is who. those hadiths are not sahih. i would not reject anything Mohammad (PBUH) said. but i am afraid you are not going to believe me.

Whether a case came about or not is irrelavant. Sharia makes it so that it is very difficult to prove such crimes and so there never will be very many. But practice doesnt change the theory. The Ottomans abolished the death penalty for apostates in 1839 which had exsisted since the time of the Prophet. Clearly they where in error to do so.

I have read the Quran and I always do. You have slandered people. Maybe not an individual but you have stated that someone is a munafiq out of a very small group of Muslims. In fact many small groups and the hadiths on apostasy where transmitted through different lines.

But you clearly don't undertand the concept of Sahih.

So we are warned about religous leaders and imams but you are certain of what you say based on you following an imam. Does this imam reject any of the hadith in Bukhari and in doing so oppose the entire body of scholars throughout time?

Also I have no doubt that you have intellect and conscience but this doesnt qualify you to interpret hadith any more than it would qualify you to do surgery. Scholars are called scholars for a reason.

OK, i get that. we would never agree. so, fine. i am not going to repeat same verses again and again but they remain in Qur'an.

.

 

[.lava]

You are still not getting the sahih point and I suggest you go and read up on it. As the same people who narrated the hadith also where the ones who recorded the Quran then what is to prevent them from fabricating it? Could they not have done so and added the verse that the Quran cant be corrupted? This seems where your line of thought leads.

Also is it posible that all hadiths are fabricted. The hadith on prayer add to whats in the Quran so could these have been fabricated by munafiqs? Would it be justified for us to simply pray any way we like based on the fact that the Quran only tells us to pray?

Examples and proof? Now I don't deny things have been added but this doesnt mean that we choose any hadith we dont like and can label if fake. I can show you real fake hadiths and give you the evidence for it but this is not what you are doing here.

But we cant tell whats correct and not? In that case it would be best to just do away with tem all? There is a science of hadith for examining the stregth of them. Based on your methadology all them could be wrong so we should maybe reject them all. Especially since those who are part of the chain in the apostasy hadiths are also narrators of thousands of other hadith on wide ranges of subjects which we accept without question. Obviously going by you these hadith on prayer, zakat etc must now be in doubt given their chain contains a potential munafiq?

No of course its not wrong but to say only read the Quran is wrong. This is the way of the deviant Quranites and this is where this line of thinking ultimatly leads.

.lava every Muslim knows that these verses are for the non Muslims, not the apostate or the Muslim. Islam for exaple compels me to pray, grow a beard, not steal, not commit zina. The above verses mean don't compel someone to accept Islam but for Muslims there are compulsions as I noted. This not only is the belief of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah but it is common sense. Is it not compuslsory for you to pray?

for the last time, AbuKhalid;

we follow sunnah but we also know Qur'an. seems like you do not search in Qur'an for proof before you say apostates should be killed. that is the difference between you and me. all those messages from religious leaders that says apostates deserves death penalthy can not even bring one verse to show that is command of Allah. i ask myself how come and you do not.

thank you, i am tired of being accused for slandering. you do not mind making this argument a personal issue. i tried to warn you about one thing alone, it would be terrible for a Muslim to defend a fabricated hadith as if it was said by Mohammad (PBUH) i did try not to attack you personally, i tried to be friendly. there is nothing left to say. you should know his SAW community does not have an agreement on this.

thank you
bye

.

 

[AbuKhalid]

.lava and Proud Muslim,

I stand by every point I made in this thread. However I hold my hands up that my method of debate on this issue leaves alot to be desired and for this I apologise. I am perfectly aware that my method of debating is too aggressive and confrontational - this is something I have not moved beyond since I became a Muslim.

I will take a few days out from this thread then come back and try to address these issues in a better way.

Again I sincerely apologise for my manners and if I have offended you both and hope that you can accept this.

 

[keithnurse]

Individuals can't kill an apostate. This can only be done within an Islamic state.

This is correct. Only the Islamic state can execute an apostate. So, shame on any Islamic state that actually does execute an apostate. It is WRONG to execute someone just for changing religion, period.

 

[YmirGF]

.lava and Proud Muslim,

I stand by every point I made in this thread. However I hold my hands up that my method of debate on this issue leaves alot to be desired and for this I apologise. I am perfectly aware that my method of debating is too aggressive and confrontational - this is something I have not moved beyond since I became a Muslim.

I will take a few days out from this thread then come back and try to address these issues in a better way.

Again I sincerely apologise for my manners and if I have offended you both and hope that you can accept this.

I think what is so puzzling to me, is that you express the Islam that I understand -- almost perfectly. You are almost refreshing, amid the confusion expressed here on RF, by other Muslims. Although the stance of .lava and ProudMuslim is laudible -- it must be pointed out that their thinking is very far from mainstream opinion.

 

[.lava]

.lava and Proud Muslim,

I stand by every point I made in this thread. However I hold my hands up that my method of debate on this issue leaves alot to be desired and for this I apologise. I am perfectly aware that my method of debating is too aggressive and confrontational - this is something I have not moved beyond since I became a Muslim.

I will take a few days out from this thread then come back and try to address these issues in a better way.

Again I sincerely apologise for my manners and if I have offended you both and hope that you can accept this.

it is OK and i do accept your apology and i also want to apologize if i made you upset with things i said. no doubt i've made mistakes too. but the point here is to know and not to forget we are not enemies here. when it becomes personal it sounds like we are and that, my friend, breaks heart. i can say for my own that my intention is not to break your heart or not even to win "a debate". we're talking about how we practice Islam. we have the same book. obviously we have differencies and this is reality.


.

 

[YmirGF]

it is OK and i do accept your apology and i also want to apologize if i made you upset with things i said. no doubt i've made mistakes too. but the point here is to know and not to forget we are not enemies here. when it becomes personal it sounds like we are and that, my friend, breaks heart. i can say for my own that my intention is not to break your heart or not even to win "a debate". we're talking about how we practice Islam. we have the same book. obviously we have differencies and this is reality.


.

Forgive my intrusion, .lava. After reading many, many comments in this thread, would you at least admit that your viewpoint is not the mainstream opinion of Islam? In my view, there is nothing wrong in having a different opinon, but it would help to clarify much in this discussion.

 

[keithnurse]

I think what is so puzzling to me, is that you express the Islam that I understand -- almost perfectly. You are almost refreshing, amid the confusion expressed here on RF, by other Muslims. Although the stance of .lava and ProudMuslim is laudible -- it must be pointed out that their thinking is very far from mainstream opinion.

Yes, I agree. It would be wonderful is lavas Islam was the mainstream of Islam but unfortunately it isn't.

 

[.lava]

Forgive my intrusion, .lava. After reading many, many comments in this thread, would you at least admit that your viewpoint is not the mainstream opinion of Islam? In my view, there is nothing wrong in having a different opinon, but it would help to clarify much in this discussion.

this is not about individuals or masses. this issue is about scholars of Islam. if Scholars say those hadiths happened to be fabricated then -accept for very little minority who love to see people suffer- all the Muslims would abandon it. Muslims do respect scholars of Islam because they are accepted as the ones who know the best, religious authority so noone would stand against them. so, to me, this is more political than religious. that mainstream may change direction in case scholars become aware of contradictions between hadiths and verses of Qur'an. for a non-Muslim it is easier to see contradiction because they did not grow up in a society where everyone teach and preach the same thing for generations without questioning.


.

 

[Sahar]

You are still not getting the sahih point and I suggest you go and read up on it. As the same people who narrated the hadith also where the ones who recorded the Quran then what is to prevent them from fabricating it? Could they not have done so and added the verse that the Quran cant be corrupted? This seems where your line of thought leads.

Also is it posible that all hadiths are fabricted. The hadith on prayer add to whats in the Quran so could these have been fabricated by munafiqs? Would it be justified for us to simply pray any way we like based on the fact that the Quran only tells us to pray?

Examples and proof? Now I don't deny things have been added but this doesnt mean that we choose any hadith we dont like and can label if fake. I can show you real fake hadiths and give you the evidence for it but this is not what you are doing here.

But we cant tell whats correct and not? In that case it would be best to just do away with tem all? There is a science of hadith for examining the stregth of them. Based on your methadology all them could be wrong so we should maybe reject them all. Especially since those who are part of the chain in the apostasy hadiths are also narrators of thousands of other hadith on wide ranges of subjects which we accept without question. Obviously going by you these hadith on prayer, zakat etc must now be in doubt given their chain contains a potential munafiq?

No of course its not wrong but to say only read the Quran is wrong. This is the way of the deviant Quranites and this is where this line of thinking ultimatly leads.

.lava every Muslim knows that these verses are for the non Muslims, not the apostate or the Muslim. Islam for exaple compels me to pray, grow a beard, not steal, not commit zina. The above verses mean don't compel someone to accept Islam but for Muslims there are compulsions as I noted. This not only is the belief of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah but it is common sense. Is it not compuslsory for you to pray?

Very good post.

 

[kai]

I think what is so puzzling to me, is that you express the Islam that I understand -- almost perfectly. You are almost refreshing, amid the confusion expressed here on RF, by other Muslims. Although the stance of .lava and ProudMuslim is laudible -- it must be pointed out that their thinking is very far from mainstream opinion.

I have to agree with YmirFG here.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

this is not about individuals or masses. this issue is about scholars of Islam. if Scholars say those hadiths happened to be fabricated then -accept for very little minority who love to see people suffer- all the Muslims would abandon it. Muslims do respect scholars of Islam because they are accepted as the ones who know the best, religious authority so noone would stand against them. so, to me, this is more political than religious. that mainstream may change direction in case scholars become aware of contradictions between hadiths and verses of Qur'an. for a non-Muslim it is easier to see contradiction because they did not grow up in a society where everyone teach and preach the same thing for generations without questioning.

This is an excellent point, and it applies to all ideologies, not just Islam. It's been said that the occasional dictator only crops up because there exists a class of intellectuals working hard to justify their actions beforehand.

Indeed, as we have seen on this thread, notice how eloquent, scholarly, refined someone can be as they argue in favor of state-sponsored murder. The arguments are so careful and detached, you almost forget that the goal is to justify murder. Notice how loyal one can be to the proper intellectual authorities, how knowledgeable of the intricacies of the party-line, how internally-consistent and logical....speaking calmly, in sterilized terms detatched from real human suffering, but painfully sensitive to threats to the abstract ideas and precedents which comprise the state ideology.

It takes enormous effort and study of the party-line, and a powerful intellect, to justify state-sponsored murder.

 

[kai]

This is an excellent point, and it applies to all ideologies, not just Islam. It's been said that the occasional dictator only crops up because there exists a class of intellectuals working hard to justify their actions beforehand.

Indeed, as we have seen on this thread, notice how eloquent, scholarly, refined someone can be as they argue in favor of state-sponsored murder. Notice how loyal one can be to the proper intellectual authorities, how knowledgeable of the intricacies of the party-line, how internally-consistent and logical....speaking calmly, in sterilized terms detatched from real human suffering, but painfully sensitive to threats to the abstract ideas and precedents which comprise the state ideology.

It takes enormous effort and study of the party-line, and a powerful intellect, to justify state-sponsored murder.

and that Mr S is a great post, on this rather sad and intensely worrying topic.