Any Draft Dodgers On RF?

[Revoltingest]

It probably would be too expensive. As it is right now, I think military personnel are paid better in modern times than they were back in the days of the draft.

Aye, things are better now that service is voluntary.
But regarding those who want others to do their fighting for them
finding it "too expensive" to fairly pay them....they should be ashamed.

 

[Stevicus]

Aye, things are better now that service is voluntary.
But regarding those who want others to do their fighting for them
finding it "too expensive" to fairly pay them....they should be ashamed.

Oh, I agree. Back in olden times, they might have given the officers and other higher-ranking types a much larger reward, while the grunts would get next to nothing. I guess the generals and admirals do okay for themselves.

I suppose the other side of the question is who should actually do the paying? Personally, I have no fighting to do, and I wouldn't have others do my fighting for me. I'm not asking anyone to fight for me, nor would I support any proposals related to our government's militaristic, interventionist philosophy.

So, perhaps it could be optional. Perhaps they could add a question to everyone's tax return: "Do you support US military policy in the world?" Everyone who checks "Yes" would be stating their willingness to have to pay extra taxes to pay for it. Those who say "No" would be exempt and could be entitled to tax credits.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, I agree. Back in olden times, they might have given the officers and other higher-ranking types a much larger reward, while the grunts would get next to nothing. I guess the generals and admirals do okay for themselves.

I suppose the other side of the question is who should actually do the paying? Personally, I have no fighting to do, and I wouldn't have others do my fighting for me. I'm not asking anyone to fight for me, nor would I support any proposals related to our government's militaristic, interventionist philosophy.

So, perhaps it could be optional. Perhaps they could add a question to everyone's tax return: "Do you support US military policy in the world?" Everyone who checks "Yes" would be stating their willingness to have to pay extra taxes to pay for it. Those who say "No" would be exempt and could be entitled to tax credits.

Optional taxes won't fly.
I say pay'm what it takes to make it voluntary.
It'll cost what it costs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I obviously can't be a draft dodger, but those that did I consider to be the responsible participants in the Vietnam war.

Personally, I don't see why the large street gang claiming ownership of the turf you chanced to be born in should have any legitimate claim of allegiance or servitude.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Stevicus]

Optional taxes won't fly.
I say pay'm what it takes to make it voluntary.
It'll cost what it costs.

I suppose they could always outsource to reduce labor costs.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose they could always outsource to reduce labor costs.

We already do that....especially for torture.

 

[DavidFirth]

I obviously can't be a draft dodger, but those that did I consider to be the responsible participants in the Vietnam war.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, if you have no pride in your country I can see this view.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yep. The Constitution makes it clear that citizens should obey the laws and soldiers should obey the POTUS. If you don't like it, there are other countries you can move your citizenship to.

The Constitution also makes it clear that slavery and indentured servited are unacceptable, except as punishment for a crime... yet here you are defending the draft.

 

[DavidFirth]

The Constitution also makes it clear that slavery and indentured servited are unacceptable, except as punishment for a crime... yet here you are defending the draft.

Well, that has been discussed above. What does the Constitution mean by "involuntary servitude"?

 

[Stevicus]

We already do that....especially for torture.

That's true.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, that has been discussed above.

The law has been discussed. By the official interpretation of the law, conscription doesn't count as slavery (for reasons that I can't fathom), but by that sane official interpretation of the law your nonsense about revoking citizenships is unconstitutional, so I took your reference to the Constitution as some sort of declaration of principles, not as an appeal to any actual law.

What does the Constitution mean by "involuntary servitude"?

Servitude that's involuntary, I would assume.

 

[DavidFirth]

The law has been discussed. By the official interpretation of the law, conscription doesn't count as slavery (for reasons that I can't fathom), but by that sane official interpretation of the law your nonsense about revoking citizenships is unconstitutional, so I took your reference to the Constitution as some sort of declaration of principles, not as an appeal to any actual law.


Servitude that's involuntary, I would assume.

1. My comment about losing one's citizenship is my own personal view, it was not meant to be even vaguely Constitutional.

2. The problem is that one must assume what was meant by the term since it isn't clear in the Constitution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. My comment about losing one's citizenship is my own personal view, it was not meant to be even vaguely Constitutional.

Weird that you cited the Constitution, then.

2. The problem is that one must assume what was meant by the term since it isn't clear in the Constitution.

The principle that
slavery is wrong matters more to me than whether the current state of the law makes particular forms of slavery legal.

... and since conscription is a form of slavery, if you support the draft, then you support slavery.

Personally, I think that denying freedom in the name of defending freedom is wrong-headed. Why do you support it?

 

[columbus]

Some background.....the specific lies....how he swayed an entire government....

I am not spending much time providing you with a batch of links to the many huge lies told by the Bush II administration officials in the lead up to the Bush wars. Or that Cheney was the spearhead of the invasion effort, in concert with Bush I and Paul Wolfowitz & Co. mainly. It was 15 years ago, and at the time the lies were being shouted from the rooftops. Everyone from Fox and Limbaugh to NYT and NPR were repeating them.

I was in a curious position at the time. A couple of years earlier, I had decided to make a concerted effort to get better informed understanding of Islam and the Muslim world. I started visiting the mosque in Bloomington regularly. My elderly father was in very bad health and I visited him regularly as well. He didn't do much but watch TV, and everything stopped when Fox evening news started. So I was regularly comparing what people like Cheney were saying to what an assortment of Muslims with strong ties to the Middle East were saying.
The Muslims accurately predicted everything from the easy defeat of Hussein and lack of WMD, to the intractable hatred of everything Bush, to the rise of Daesh.

Comparing their claims to those of my own government left me even more disillusioned than a queer atheist already was, concerning my country.
Not pretty. "Loving my country" became quite similar to "Loving a dysfunctional and drug addicted violent criminal because he's family". I can do it, for various reasons, but it takes effort. Like most important relationships.

how
he convinced voters to re-elect GW Bush....

GW Bush didn't get elected in 2000. The Supreme Court decided to let his brother, Governor of Florida, choose the rules by which Floridians would assign all the Electoral College delegates from "his" state.
Having gotten us into an ugly, unwinnable, war the Republicans the launched a campaign against ending the war. One of the biggest lies they told to influence the electorate is called "Swiftboat". John Kerry was deliberately smeared in a successful effort to keep the White House in Republican hands for another 4 years, and it worked.
Didn't it?
Next thing you know, the chickens are coming home to roost. The economy is collapsing, Daesh is on the rise, the federal debt is skyrocketing, illegal workers are flooding the country, China and North Korea are saber rattling, terrorism is on the rise amongst our allies....

But the Republicans like the Koch brothers and Murdoch still managed to fill Congress with teapartiers whose one goal was to wrest POTUS back to Republican power, no matter how much damage it did to the USA. From shutting down the government to grandstand against ACA to birtherism undermining of the President to smearing the top Democratic candidate to follow Obama, ... The Republicans have made it clear to me that they, as a group, care less for the USA than they do for the billionaires that fund the Party.
You can spin that all you want with your stupid false equivalency and lack of interest in democracy and demands for evidence that suits you (when it suits you to demand evidence, as opposed to your claims that Hillary is corrupt) , but I gave up on the ethics of the Republican party in 2010. Their willingness to embrace the undemocratic methods by which Trump and Putin took over the government I won't forget before I die. I'm not willing to vote for anybody who has an (R) after their name again ever.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, if you have no pride in your country I can see this view.

National pride has nothing to do with this one. America is large enough that we can enjoy the privilege of having a large enough volunteer army that not every male is trained like they are in Germany or Sweden (both of course being smaller than many of our states). This is one issue with the draft, is the privilege we enjoy was pulled, for a war America should not have been involved in, a second problem. A third is that involuntary servitude is illegal according to the Constitution, thus making the draft a measure that strips young men of their Constitutional rights. From there, many more "trickle down" side effects occur, such as sending both ill-trained men and men who had not the mentality for war, embarrassing defeats, and ultimately becoming another stain on American's history.
Draft dodgers, however, they are the ones who said no to killing people and no to getting killed just to be a part of a national embarrassment.

Well, that has been discussed above. What does the Constitution mean by "involuntary servitude"?

You didn't sign up for it, you didn't agree to it, but you're doing it anyways: I think that well sums up "involuntary servitude."

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not spending much time providing you with a batch of links to the many huge lies told by the Bush II administration officials in the lead up to the Bush wars. Or that Cheney was the spearhead of the invasion effort, in concert with Bush I and Paul Wolfowitz & Co. mainly. It was 15 years ago, and at the time the lies were being shouted from the rooftops. Everyone from Fox and Limbaugh to NYT and NPR were repeating them.

I was in a curious position at the time. A couple of years earlier, I had decided to make a concerted effort to get better informed understanding of Islam and the Muslim world. I started visiting the mosque in Bloomington regularly. My elderly father was in very bad health and I visited him regularly as well. He didn't do much but watch TV, and everything stopped when Fox evening news started. So I was regularly comparing what people like Cheney were saying to what an assortment of Muslims with strong ties to the Middle East were saying.
The Muslims accurately predicted everything from the easy defeat of Hussein and lack of WMD, to the intractable hatred of everything Bush, to the rise of Daesh.

Comparing their claims to those of my own government left me even more disillusioned than a queer atheist already was, concerning my country.
Not pretty. "Loving my country" became quite similar to "Loving a dysfunctional and drug addicted violent criminal because he's family". I can do it, for various reasons, but it takes effort. Like most important relationships.

GW Bush didn't get elected in 2000. The Supreme Court decided to let his brother, Governor of Florida, choose the rules by which Floridians would assign all the Electoral College delegates from "his" state.
Having gotten us into an ugly, unwinnable, war the Republicans the launched a campaign against ending the war. One of the biggest lies they told to influence the electorate is called "Swiftboat". John Kerry was deliberately smeared in a successful effort to keep the White House in Republican hands for another 4 years, and it worked.
Didn't it?
Next thing you know, the chickens are coming home to roost. The economy is collapsing, Daesh is on the rise, the federal debt is skyrocketing, illegal workers are flooding the country, China and North Korea are saber rattling, terrorism is on the rise amongst our allies....

But the Republicans like the Koch brothers and Murdoch still managed to fill Congress with teapartiers whose one goal was to wrest POTUS back to Republican power, no matter how much damage it did to the USA. From shutting down the government to grandstand against ACA to birtherism undermining of the President to smearing the top Democratic candidate to follow Obama, ... The Republicans have made it clear to me that they, as a group, care less for the USA than they do for the billionaires that fund the Party.
You can spin that all you want with your stupid false equivalency and lack of interest in democracy and demands for evidence that suits you (when it suits you to demand evidence, as opposed to your claims that Hillary is corrupt) , but I gave up on the ethics of the Republican party in 2010. Their willingness to embrace the undemocratic methods by which Trump and Putin took over the government I won't forget before I die. I'm not willing to vote for anybody who has an (R) after their name again ever.
Tom

"Stupid false equivalency"?
That seems a meandering disingenuous provocation to deflect from my query.
You entirely avoided supporting the claim of going to war for wealth.

 

[Valjean]

I suppose they could always outsource to reduce labor costs.

Didn't work out well for the Romans and isn't working too well for our native armies in Iraq and Afghanistan, either.

Well, if you have no pride in your country I can see this view.

I have pride in achievements, not race, country, religion or ball team.

It's not my country. I just happened to be born in a region claimed and dominated by an entity calling itself the USA.

The USA has been behaving badly since its inception, if anything I should be ashamed of it.

 

[Sensor]

Anyone else who refused to be inducted?