anti semitic

[islam abduallah]

i used to face this offense specially when i spoke about the occupation of the Palestine land or the religion of Judaism, and that's let me check on Wikipedia who are Semitics?

and the surprise was that i'm one of the Semitics as Arabs are Semitics, but this is not the important issue, i just wondering why saying something about who occupies Palestine, you will be called anti- Semitics, while attacking the Arabs or Palestine you won't be called anti-semiotics although that they are Semitics, why this double standards, could anybody advise me WHY?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Semites are not just Arabs but rather anyone descended from those who were part of the Semetic language group (includes quite a few different groups of people); however colloquially the term has been requisitioned to mean anti-Jewish (not all of whom are Semites).

The term is seldom technically correctly used and it could be said to be over used, particularly when issues sensitive to Israel are concerned (just as any group are likely to be ethnocentric and perhaps over sensitive at times - sometimes with good reason, other times not)

 

[Caladan]

First of all you seem to very paranoid about the fact that criticizing Israel will label you an anti-Semite. This is proven wrong over and over on daily basis as the UN, the EU, and world media freely discusses the Israeli-Palestinian situation, not mentioning the fact that the most active human rights group for the Palestinian cause are Israeli. This leads me to believe that your ''criticism of Israel'' may not be that innocent or guided by genuine concern for the Palestinians if by default you already assume that you will be labeled an anti-Semite.
Furthermore, do you know the history of the term anti-Semitism? do you know where, why, and under which circumstances it was fashioned?
If you do not, then there is no point in trying to explain to you about its use in Jewish context, until you educate yourself on the roots and uses of the term throughout mdoern history.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It's historical use and implications are indeed important (the jewish people have indeed faced great persecution during the 20th century in particular), but it is not a correctly used term - a more apt term might perhaps be anti-jewish or anti-israel, both of which would apply at different times, it is however true that the term anti-semite is hardly an accurate description of those who make threatening, derogatory or even merely critical comments about jewish people and/or israelis and/or israel and may be a particularly grating point if you happen to be a semite and are labelled an anti-semite.

 

[Caladan]

It's historical use and implications are indeed important (the jewish people have indeed faced great persecution during the 20th century in particular), but it is not a correctly used term - a more apt term might perhaps be anti-jewish or anti-israel, both of which would apply at different times, it is however true that the term anti-semite is hardly an accurate description of those who make threatening, derogatory or even merely critical comments about jewish people and/or israelis and/or israel and may be a particularly grating point if you happen to be a semite and being told you are an anti-semite.

Do you agree that the term was specifically created to address animosity towards Jews? and this is in fact the root of the term?
If you agree to that basic fact, then you also agree that you also try to reinvent the term. To me it matters less as it is a matter of practicallity, I don't really care if people use the term anti-Jewish if it makes them more comfortable. However anti-Semitism has an historical use.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Created? I am not so sure about that, if you refer to Marr's use of the term yes it was meant for that purpose that does not however change that it is a technically incorrect term; were you to examine Steinschneider's use of the term (which predates Marr's) a reply to Renan's misuse of the term Semite (Semite was coined by Schlözer some 80 years earlier to refer to the languages related to hebrew), and his discussion of the Jewish people in particular (mentioning Arabs separately), Renan was particularly anti-jewish; Steinschneider's reference to "semitic races" appears to have been a reply to Renan's more limited scope of Jews, but the term semite itself as opposed to anti-semite predates this and refers to the Semite peoples - which is determined by the semitic language group, it was an incorrect use of the term by Renan, picked up by Steinschneider's and subsequently Marr.

However the common usage not merely of anti-Semite but also of Semite quickly altered with the influence of German policies and propaganda. It has since been used (I believe) almost exclusively for the purpose of identifying the Jewish people's psuedo (by this i mean both the ethnic group and to a lesser extent converts) ethnic group - but that does not change that it is still technically incorrect.

The Jewish Question: Biography of a World Problem By Alex Bein page 593-596 is a nice source for this

 

[Caladan]

Created? I am not so sure about that, if you refer to Marr's use of the term yes it was meant for that purpose that does not however change that it is a technically incorrect term.

Incorrectly from your POV. Widely accepted in main discourse.

If on the other hand you look to Steinschneider's used of the term (which predates Marr's) then it appears to have a wider scope, incorporating a more diverse group of people, not limited to the ethnic group to which the Jewish people (of the time) belong (that may have been unclear I am sorry, because the the idea of the Jewish ethnic group and religious group often are used interchangeably), however it's common usage quickly altered with the influence of German policies and propaganda.

It's not hard to see that even Steinschneider's who was Jewish himself, use the term out of an environment of ''pro-Aryanism'', and anti Jewish sentiments. The Jews were the representatives of these historical Semitic civilizations and baggage in the ''Aryan'' European continent. Both Steinschneider and Marr used the term from an already common German habit of treating ''Semitism'' and ''Jews'' interchangeably.

As for it's use? It has been used (I believe) almost exclusively for the purpose of identifying the Jewish people's psuedo (by this i mean both the ethnic group and to a lesser extent converts) ethnic group - it is however still, technically incorrect.

Pseudo group, eh? that's very nice, and captures very well the stupidity behind such threads.

 

[Caladan]

I see you change your posts as you go along. For the sake of the honesty and fluency of discussion, perhaps you should read the material before trying to make your points, and preferably not editing your posts after I already quoted them and addressed them.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Sorry I was editing as I did some more research on Renan (most of the time these discussions are slower so I thought I had the time to augment my post - my apologies).

Incorrectly from your POV. Widely accepted in main discourse.

I noted this right from my first post - while technically incorrect from the point of view of etymology (due to the meaning of the term Semite coined in 1781), it remains the common usage - I said that, so I am not sure what you are attempting to say I am sorry.

It's not hard to see that even Steinschneider's who was Jewish himself, use the term out of an environment of ''pro-Aryanism'', and anti Jewish sentiments. The Jews were the representatives of these historical Semitic civilizations and baggage in the ''Aryan'' European continent. Both Steinschneider and Marr used the term from an already common German habit of treating ''Semitism'' and ''Jews'' interchangeably.

I agree; at what point did you think I was objecting to that? (was it perhaps while I was editing - because if so then that was probably my fault)

Pseudo group, eh? that's very nice, and captures very well the stupidity behind such threads.

I was using the 'psuedo' in reference to the fact that it is not a single ethnic group the Jewish people include converts who are not from the same ethnic group and yet at times the term is still used to refer to these convert. Correct? It is used not merely to refer to the ethnic group but the religious group as well, it is used to refer to both ethnic jews and converts as if they were a single homogeneous ethnic group, this is why I used the term psuedo, Take umbrage if you will that is the common use of the term which I denote was racially dubious (in terms of potentially being racist) by use of the term psuedo. I also agree it captures the stupidity well in that people discuss the issue as if the Jewish people are a single homogeneous ethnic group when they are not; pseudo was not however as you seem to be implying used to be derogatory towards the Jewish people. And given that I was quite clear at the time why I was using the term, I actually do take slight offence at the implication - had I not explained why I was using the term, maybe I wouldn't take any offence since it might have been more easily read as being derogatory, but I made explicit my reasons for the term - that I was referring to a compound group which would not actually fit the definition of an ethnic group so I made it clear.

 

[Revoltingest]

First of all you seem to very paranoid about the fact that criticizing Israel will label you an anti-Semite.

Nah, I think he has a fair criticism. I see it regularly, especially here on RF, where criticism of Israel
is often vehemently countered with ad hom attacks including the cry of "anti-semitism".
Moreover, Mid-East Muslims strike as more subject to anti-semitism than Jews...at least here in the USA.
Consider how they're portrayed in our media, & regular threads about how violent & primitive they are.

 

[Flankerl]

Oh look its this thread again.

 

[Rational_Mind]

He has a fair point. This term is misused way too often. Although there are extremist groups that are Anti-Jewish it is unfortunate that the media tends to generally protray Muslims as anti-Jewish while remaining largely silent on Muslim Jewish groups that form positive relations.

I am not saying that small extremist groups don't exist, rather that this term is used often to wrongly evoke sympathy and bias news headlines. Zionists tend to use this term to connotatively draw a parallel between their enemies and Hitler.

I think by the end of this thread at least one person will be wrongly labelled antisemite. Although, I hope that it doesn't happen.

 

[islam abduallah]

First of all you seem to very paranoid about the fact that criticizing Israel will label you an anti-Semite

.

israel !! what's israel?? do you mean Palestine?

Did You Mean Palestine? : I Googled Israel And Got Did You Mean Palestine Story & Experience

 

[Assad91]

No there IS an Israel.

Who has an army that kills innocent people peacfully protesting. Who conduct night raids inorder to arrest children. Who has a governmwnt that gives a blind eye towards settlers and doesnt enforce even Israeli law. A government using imperealistic scum known as settlers to steal land.

There is most deffinetly an Israel. One who some ignorantly call the "only civilized country in the Middle East".

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Imperialistic scum? A bit too far imo - the settlements are arguably illegal (as far as the limited research I have done on the matter suggests), however that does not warrant such categorization for the average Israeli citizen and even the average Israeli settler - their GOVERNMENT might, the people do not.

The settlers are are simply moving into land their government says is up for grabs, they are merely looking out for themselves - not being 'imperialist', it is policy makers who achieve that - not the people who are simply using the fact that their government is expansionist to get their hands on cheap land. And from a logistical and strategic point of view the motives of the government in continuing the policy is well founded - the morality of it inconsequential. And, since the international community has decided to ignore the situation - it is not a situation where the applicable international laws (those which do apply) will be applied. So why wouldnt they be expansionist?

If you were really interested in a future with a sovereign Palestine calling people whom many outsiders believe many islamics believe shouldnt exist (and are conned into thinking that most islamics would try to wipe them out, as if the presence of several hundred nukes wouldnt make that impossible) imperialist scum is not the way to go about it. Instead you need to work on the PR; to get the international community to realise the double standard that they operate under. Comments like those above simply get you nowhere and serve to undermine the appeal of your cause to outsiders- and it is outsiders you need on your side, not other people who already share your view (mainly muslims with relatively few exceptions) but rather to garner support from those who are currently ambivalent, undecided or even opposed; that is where the difference in the two causes lies and it is something that the Palestinians have still not addressed after all this time, the greatest disparity between the groups is due to their PR, not due to the difference in military forces.

 

[Rakhel]

.

israel !! what's israel?? do you mean Palestine?

Did You Mean Palestine? : I Googled Israel And Got Did You Mean Palestine Story & Experience

Don't know what the hell that site is talking about, I googled "Israel" and got a list of websites pertaining to Israel.

Though thinking about it, it is possible to incorrectly spell a word, get a "Did you mean..," type another word into the search engine without hitting enter, then take a screen shot of what you just did.

I think I'll call bull on eperienceproject.com

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm going to Israel in about three weeks. Can't wait.

 

[Caladan]

I think by the end of this thread at least one person will be wrongly labelled antisemite. Although, I hope that it doesn't happen.

So far several Jewish members posted in this thread and non of them called anyone anti-Semitic. On the other hand 2 out of the 3 Muslims who posted in this thread have either denied Israel the right to exist or refered to Israelis as ''scum''.
Boy, you must feel like an ***.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So far several Jewish members posted in this thread and non of them called anyone anti-Semitic. On the other hand 2 out of the 3 Muslims who posted in this thread have either denied Israel the right to exist or refered to Israelis as ''scum''.
Boy, you must feel like an ***.

I do feel bad that their tone and conduct is beyond acceptable. But I don't like your generalizations.

1. Every Jew is not from Israel
2. Even if they hate Israelis I don't think they would hate their friendly neighborhood Jew.
3. I don't think anyone here denied Israel's right to exist, just yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone does because they much like the other side have been brainwashed.

You can call them anti-Israel. But if you are sufficiently brainwashed you can continue to think of everyone against Israel's conduct is anti-semite.

BTW: I don't support the conduct of Muslim states either, they haven't been doing much to help but to make the situation worse. Both the state of Israel and most Arab states have lost their morals.

@Assad91 reform your conduct to the teachings of Islam

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do feel bad that their tone and conduct is beyond acceptable. But I don't like your generalizations.

1. Every Jew is not from Israel
2. Even if they hate Israelis I don't think they would hate their friendly neighborhood Jew.
3. I don't think anyone here denied Israel's right to exist, just yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone does because they much like the other side have been brainwashed....

I agree with your first two points. Point three, however, strikes me as more questionable given comments such as ...

israel !! what's israel?? do you mean Palestine? ...

There is also this sense that all Israelis are like the 'settlers' and all 'settlers' are like the ultra-right vigilantes. It is very much like vilifying all Palestinians in Gaza as terrorists.