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Answering Atheists

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
For curiosities sake, can you specify what should have been created.

So you think God created Lucifer right? Some believe Lucifer was an angel, and he rebelled against God so God didnt create Lucifer.

Well, of course. But god would know that the angel would later become Satan, drag 1/3rd of the angels with him, and cause untold suffering to unfold, right? Seems not creating the angel who would later become Satan would definitely go a long way in not causing the downfall of everything.

So can you just make a suggestion how it should have been done? Say God created Angels, and one of them rebelled and he changed his name to Lucifer, so what would your suggestion to God would have been if you were there?

After the fact? Yoink him out of existence, and I would actually wonder why he made him in the first place. He should know that by even allowing him to exist, things would be sent down a dark road. It's such a small lynch pin that made everything tumble down into an avalanche that wasted countless lives, if this is how things were supposed to have unfolded.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
So do you think a father who let's his child suffer momentarily to correct a serious problem, is immoral?
Are sufferings momentary?
Nowhere does the Bible say God created his children, "knowing what would happen".
God could have destroyed him immediately. However, that would only show one thing... that God can exercise his power against anyone who opposes him.
It does not address the real issue, or issues involved.
So, the all-knowing God did not know what would happen?
That is the real issue. After one who went wrong, why did not God destroy him even after having all the power and created sufferings for humans?
Doubly wrong.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, of course. But god would know that the angel would later become Satan, drag 1/3rd of the angels with him, and cause untold suffering to unfold, right? Seems not creating the angel who would later become Satan would definitely go a long way in not causing the downfall of everything.

Okay, so lets say like you said one out of three angels became bad which I wonder where you got from, and God could have made them robots if he wanted to right? You think that would work?

After the fact? Yoink him out of existence, and I would actually wonder why he made him in the first place.

So you think he should have never been created right? Do you think not creating anything would have been better?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Now, that is Allah's word. Do not blaspheme. Fear Allah. ;)
.. God could have made them robots if he wanted to right?
So you think he should have never been created right? Do you think not creating anything would have been better?
That is one more question. Why did Allah had to create the universe. I am sure there are other worlds where also its denizens are suffering.
How 'no creation' would have been a problem? Were we there to ask for it?
Mistake after mistake. One after the other.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father's men's lifes shared recorded memories the scientist.

Said. O visionary theism existed first.

O God earth sitting in space with law mountain arising cooling of planet in void vacuum. Formed immaculate heavens. By volcanic blasts.

Exploding. Mind human says the unknown God. Heavenly creator.

Immaculate earth womb voided. Mystery of a theist human.

Sun cooling another God in hell unknown burst. Attacked converted earth. Gave earth heavens light.

Unknown God theism. To think upon.

The instant moment Sus nose point of O ^power bored out sin of God holes a^v contradiction by o. Force of sun.

No volcanic mountain by thesis. Inference. As the scientific visionary.

However he theoried ∆ tip of mountain above flooded earth O UFO conversion mass shifted.

Memories why he said a pyramid by use 0 did not physically exist. Using science memory.

Not one of those moments did science own God O earth did.

Father said science knew instantly when he sent life to carpenter opened tectonic hell all life destroyed was because re raised mountains after water released the flood evaporated was underground O held.

When gas light voiding plus moon existed. Natural pressures.

What he never theoried to quote correct earth advice history law of mountain. No science theory about God even exists involving sun.

He virtually put earths O origin form back before conversion itself into its origin state.

What he learnt about gods potency including what he never knew. Men theoried about gods power in human earth science.

Using some words today about a non one held state theorising visionary fake meaning proves you wrong everytime.

As God is O one form only natural.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The theme Satan angel who attacked mountains ∆ form tore off the face disintegrated it into dusts at its feet real cause.

As in theory involving sun no mountain actually existed as it had been minused by O sin hole. Sink holes.^v.

As above so below. Science caused the mountains removal in theory calculus.

Why men said the angel upon the mountain told him why humanity had been attacked in a God war and sacrificed.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Okay, so lets say like you said one out of three angels became bad which I wonder where you got from, and God could have made them robots if he wanted to right? You think that would work?

Who said anything about robots?

I'm simply suggesting that we remove the source of this terrible event, similar to not releasing a known serial killer into the public.

Now, if the angels rebelled anyways even without Satan, how about we fix that problem first before making a world for them to destroy and cause suffering and havoc to.

Were Adam and Eve robots before they ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? Remove the fruit, and remove the corrupting influence of demonic beings. If heaven is inevitable, create it now and skip all this drama.

As for the 1/3rd angels thing, this was my understanding when I was Christian:

Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer? | GotQuestions.org

So you think he should have never been created right? Do you think not creating anything would have been better?

No, but I do think the rules of existence we have now don't make a lot of sense in the Christian context I was raised with. If looking at life through that lens, it makes suffering seem like some kind of outside, unnatural thing; like it's something that we don't need to have, but do have because of certain circumstances. After all, heaven has no suffering, so why should we have it now? God allows it, and there's no reason good enough to allow it - especially when you throw the concept of hell into the mix.

It complicates things in ways that just don't make sense. o_O
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
To be clear, your post isn't actually an "atheist argument" at all. What it is, is a critique made against christianity specifically based upon scripture and tradition.

Second, it's about whether this character called "god" is actually moral or good. I would put it slightly different though. Put it this way....most normally moral people will help others in need. Let's take for example if we see someone being attacked. Usually people will spring into action and try to stop the fight, even if they don't know what started it or what's going on. Why do we do this? We know that the people can be harmed, but also that they could unintentionally harm someone else around them. We understand that what they are doing is harmful by experience and potentially life threatening, so we intervene to try to minimize the potential harm done by the fight by stopping it. We see a car accident, we stop to render aid. We see a house on fire, we run in to try and save the people inside. We have empathy as human beings and that empathy is what leads to this behavior. Most people will say as well that if we had the ability to stop a crime...let's say a rape, then we most certainly would. This is where moral accountability comes about, because we as humans do have laws in place for those that don't render aid, or watch a crime happen and do nothing to stop it. Yet, even though we judge those people as guilty for not stopping a crime and have punishments....christians are just fine with the concept of a god who watches a rape and does nothing to stop it. We are told that we as humans must be more moral and more accountable, than the god who is supposed to be the pinnacle of morality? Who supposedly is the law giver/maker...but doesn't follow it's own laws? We are told we must not only obey...but love, respect and worship the very same god who has the power to cure a cancer stricken child...or watches as a pedophile rapes a kid, or watches the torture of a human being...and sits arms crossed while saying "don't worry, I'll get you later when you die". We are also told that this same god, who invented a place of eternal torment, is just and good? Meanwhile the criteria for by which souls are judged is so screwed up?! To be clear the bible clearly states in 3 separate books that the only unforgiveable sin is denial of the holy spirit or denying god. So, while christians may take solace that the pedophile will go to hell...if the bible is right, they might actually end up in heaven. After all, in those 3 places, it says so long as they never denied god and begged forgiveness before they died, they will be forgiven. All sins WILL be forgiven. So that means also, horrifically that this supposed pinnacle of justice, good, morality, etc...cares more that you worship him, than he does for human suffering. So by the logic of the bible, for it's own words, you can be a horrible person your whole life, murdering, raping, stealing and so long as you never denied god and ask forgiveness in faith, you will go to heaven. Meanwhile a humble Hindu, who spent his whole life dedicated to helping the sick and needy, who alleviated the suffering of thousands....has his ticket already punched for hell, because he didn't believe in the right god. So the argument is a moral critique of the character of god and the fact that we as humans are more moral than the god we are supposed to praise and worship. That should cause any christian to pause and reflect on what they believe....but so often they don't, because faith is a comfort that comes with a price and that price is your base integrity.
Very interesting and intense post.
I don't know if you watched a lot of action dramas, but before my path on the road to life, I watched a lot, and sometimes a scenario is not as simple as two humans fighting, or being in a position where one can jump in and rescue a rape victim.
Some scenarios are really sensitive, and complicated - a hostage situation; a bomb threat.
In these movies, the average citizen cannot jump in to the rescue. like Batman and Robin.
We the citizen leave it to the special agents.
The guys who know the situation. The ones who have the intel; the equipment; the experience.

We trust them to handle the situation, lest our ideas compromise their operation... or worst... get us killed, and the one we want to save.
Our anxiety to have things done right away is understandable. We humans get anxious, especially where loved ones are concerned, but we trust those specially equipted to handle this situation.
Why? We are powerless to help in this situation. This one is too big for us.
Hearing of a loss is hard, but what could we have done.
That's the way it is.

What have humans done to solve the problems of poverty, rape, exploitation and abuse? How many in power, are perpetrators and benefactors of these?
What have we done?
Does it not seem like we are in a system that's fighting against itself? The question is, why?
Why is peace so hard to achieve when it's what we want?
Has human governments failed us?

Millions trust that God's way of handling the matter, and providing the perfect solution, is the only, and best way. They see that it work. That God is not... as claimed by some, "doing nothing".

It boils down to trust, does it not?
Whom do we trust?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Who said anything about robots?

I'm simply suggesting that we remove the source of this terrible event, similar to not releasing a known serial killer into the public.

Now, if the angels rebelled anyways even without Satan, how about we fix that problem first before making a world for them to destroy and cause suffering and havoc to.

Were Adam and Eve robots before they ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? Remove the fruit, and remove the corrupting influence of demonic beings. If heaven is inevitable, create it now and skip all this drama.

As for the 1/3rd angels thing, this was my understanding when I was Christian:

Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer? | GotQuestions.org

Thus, you are presupposing God knows whats gonna happen, and that things didnt go well, thus God should have made things so that it goes according to a better plan.

Can you explain how you would know that there is a better plan?

(Forget about one third of the angels etc etc. Its gonna get into a theological and biblical discussion).
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
How do you know this? Do you have a direct line to your gods office so you've asked him? Did he turn up in your bedroom one night and impart this information? Or is it another of those my god doesn't do the stuff i don't like scenarios?
None of the above.
The Bible tells us the truth about God.
Is that an opinion? We'll find out eventually, I believe.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Thus, you are presupposing God knows whats gonna happen, and that things didnt go well, thus God should have made things so that it goes according to a better plan.

Can you explain how you would know that there is a better plan?

(Forget about one third of the angels etc etc. Its gonna get into a theological and biblical discussion).

Well, if good is "better" and evil is "worse," any plan that limits evil while still keeping maximal "free will" in tact (assuming one believes in such a thing) would be better.

In the rules of existence we live with now, there are plans that we can enact that have desired results and undesired results. If god is all good, and he opposes evil, evil is an undesired result. If a being has 100% control, the result cannot come about by accident, so if evil comes about, it has to be intentional.

Would you say that evil and suffering in the world is intended by god?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-
  1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  5. Evil exists.
  6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it? :shrug:

Just as darkness is not an existence unto itself, but the lack of light, so too evil is lack of good not an entity or existence unto itself. But there are degrees of goodness and when one has departed so far from it that one behaves in an opposite manner, we call it evil. Satan in the Bible to me refers to man’s ego which is far from God.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
So your whole premise of the argument is based on several if's.

Lets say an evil event (what ever you mean by it) is "worse", for how long is it "worse"? Is it worse forever? Do you understand the question?

I mean, I can only go by the understanding of evil I grew up with.

I feel like this is going down the road of semantics... Let's go with a tangible event. The Holocaust! Of the Holocaust is "evil" and no holocaust is "good," creating conditions in which the Holocaust doesn't happen would be better, no? Let's say Hitler was never born. Would the world be better for having no Holocaust?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science the only wrong status owns multi same used consciousness yet his thoughts wandered to places visionary. Why science was based on spirit theism.

Actually. Science practice is the ONLY anti causer of form.

So science says to science let's not destroy as evolution owns presence.

Science then tells science as God the creator is not in creation and creation consumed itself as law Satan. As a scientist I break laws satanism. How am I wrong.

Evolution is modern sciences argument against said man mad scientist. As natural is owned by everyone first.

Why he tried to convince us all that first makes us all Satan as a natural human theoried satanism.

So kind of you scientist.

By lists. Ist.

Ist is the same as saying 1st as first but said secretly.

As science says I was a mad man a form of self destructive human expressed non realism.

Science hence said there is no God in creation and no creator of God.

So everyone should ask science why then did you research the eternal God creator of God as beginnings?

Real answer I don't believe by science in that presence.

In human spiritual consciousness we state we left the eternal form of God ourselves.

Hence scientists never owned life without death.

They however think self deserves life without death then claim but I will give it to a machine reaction when I find it.

That status is an imbalanced thinking statement.

Why O God earth life was stated categorically to be the Christ gas consciousness versus satanic theists.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I mean, I can only go by the understanding of evil I grew up with.

I feel like this is going down the road of semantics... Let's go with a tangible event. The Holocaust! Of the Holocaust is "evil" and no holocaust is "good," creating conditions in which the Holocaust doesn't happen would be better, no? Let's say Hitler was never born. Would the world be better for having no Holocaust?

How can I know that? I cannot know what effect any of this would have in another 3000 years. All I can know is I am not gonna kill people, or instigate any killing, or even condone any killing innocent people. Thats from my perspective.

So can you explain how you know how its gonna be in another 3000 years "IF" free-will doesn't exist?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When you use their science ancient symbolism.

M was 1000 value of Christ.
AD before zero.

Straight away holy zero space womb not even contemplated. Intent stated.

M 1000 Christ AD mad theist.

M value 13. Not in time it says.

Nuclear placement for converting cold evolved mass.

Why we knew his theisms are evil.

Why MAD owns an irradiation status in theism.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God created a heavenly family of spirit sons. He did not create Satan.
One of God's sons chose to become Satan the Devil - that is Opposer, and Slanderer.
One who tells wicked lies, and opposes their father, is not created or made that way.
That makes it sound like God did create Satan.

... unless God didn't foresee that his son would become Satan?

It's a choice.
We choose between our desires, but we don't choose what those desires are.

For Satan to choose to oppose God, the desire to oppose God must have been placed in him by God.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
That makes it sound like God did create Satan.

... unless God didn't foresee that his son would become Satan?


We choose between our desires, but we don't choose what those desires are.

For Satan to choose to oppose God, the desire to oppose God must have been placed in him by God.
Science says O first form higher colder in maths is God.

Science itself expressed by humans.

O God burst so births Satan. O Satan cools becomes seal inherited God.

What science the theist said as a human why no man is Satan which he seems to ignore and no man is God.
 
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