Answering Atheists

[nPeace]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows: ...

No, it is not. There is no the Atheists' argument. Atheism is the lack of belief/disbelief in gods. That is all.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect

Not necessarily.

If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.

Yes.

If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.

Yes.

If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

Yes. Maybe.

Evil exists.

I don't know.

If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.

That's maybe true.

Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

No. Does not compute for me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

The premise is weak. How does one know God has such qualities?

 

[Vinayaka]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

Not an apt description of the God I know and love. For one, I don't believe in evil.

 

[ChristineM]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

No atheist says that, an atheist has no belief in god so *if* is irrelevant. However, what you say is what the bible and Christianity teaches so must logically be the belief of god believers

If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil

The bible says your god is omnipotent, (some versions of the bible do anyway) but logically yes, an omnipotent entity would have such power

If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.

Yes, that comes from the definition of the word.

If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

Eh?

If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.

Logical

Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Makes sense

 

[SigurdReginson]

There is no "atheist argument." The thing you are referencing is the Epicurean Paradox.

Question: could one create a world with freedom and not include "suffering" within it's creation? Why, or why not?

 

[ecco]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

When you start a thread with a strawman, you have already lost all credibility.


I am an atheist. I have never said "If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect." For one thing, Apollo was not considered to be omnipotent or omniscient.

What I might have said is that many Christians believe their god is omnipotent and omniscient.

You do understand the difference, don't you?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Makes sense

To be fair, it does to some extent. The nuances, though, are, that it's arguing against not only one of Abrahamic faith, but one who believes all those conditions to be true.

Otherwise, the points kind of fall flat.

 

[SigurdReginson]

To be fair, it does to some extent. The nuances, though, are, that it's arguing against not only one of Abrahamic faith, but one who believes all those conditions to be true.

Otherwise, the points kind of fall flat.

Hmmm... Why is that problematic, exactly?

 

[ChristineM]

To be fair, it does to some extent. The nuances, though, are, that it's arguing against not only one of Abrahamic faith, but one who believes all those conditions to be true.

Otherwise, the points kind of fall flat.

Im only talking Christianity, i guess some other faiths have the similar belief if their gods power. And so the same logic must apply

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Hmmm... Why is that problematic, exactly?

Suppose this was in person and someone was trying to persuade me about God and I was still Hindu. I might have considered Brahman God. Or maybe even Shiva. Well as soon as they start outlining their points, I'll be correcting them and saying things like "I don't believe in evil", then they won't know what to say, because I don't.

 

[nPeace]

No, it is not. There is no the Atheists' argument. Atheism is the lack of belief/disbelief in gods. That is all.

Atheists don't have arguments? Is that what you are saying?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.

No, it isn't.

Item 1 is wrong: it's not that atheists insist that God must be an omnimax deity; it's that an omnimax deity is a feature of the belief systems of many theists.

Items 2, 3, 4, and 6 are wrong: it's not about God necessarily eliminating all evil after it mysteriously poofed into existence somehow. It's that if God is the source of everything (again: another premise from the belief system the argument responds to), then God would be the source for all evil (and suffering, etc.) that exists. IOW, if evil exists in the world, it must be because of a knowing, wilful act by God to put evil in the world.

Item 7 is wrong: it's not that God must not exist; it's that there's some sort of contradiction in the theist's premises. Yes, that contradiction could be resolved by God not existing at all, but it could also be resolved by God not being perfectly good, omnipotent, or omniscient.

However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

In that scenario, where did the evil come from?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheists don't have arguments? Is that what you are saying?

I am an atheist. That means I lack a positive belief in or have a disbelief in gods. That is all. It is not an argument, it simply tells you that I don't believe like you do.

 

[nPeace]

The premise is weak. How does one know God has such qualities?

At least not based on that argument. I agree. That's why the argument seemed a bit odd to me. I think someone refined it. Hopefully I will find the original. I think it's somewhere here on the forums. I'll search.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?

Can God create this "permanently lasting freedom from corruption" without allowing suffering?

- if yes, then the "freedom from corruption" doesn't excuse the suffering. God is not perfectly moral.

- if no, then there is at least one thing that's beyond God's power. God is not omnipotent.

 

[nPeace]

Not an apt description of the God I know and love. For one, I don't believe in evil.

When you say you "don't believe in evil", I am assuming you don't mean you don't think there is evil, or am I wrong?
Perhaps you think that everything is good? I don't know... I am asking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

Another way of looking at the Problem of Evil:

Is the state of the world aligned with God's will?

- if yes, how does all the evil and suffering in the world reflect on God's will (and on God's character)?

- if no, then where did all the evil and suffering in the world come from, and how do they reflect on God's ability (or lack thereof)?

And of course, even this question - like the original PoE can be seen as one special case of a much larger question:

Why is it that God's behaviour, in every way we can observe or measure, is entirely consistent with God not existing at all?

 

[Yazata]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Yes, I've often seen atheists trying to exploit that 'argument from evil' or some variant on it.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Well, premise 1 seems wrong to me. It's based on the traditional theistic attributes along with the assertion that if God exists then God must possess these attributes. I'd question how anyone (especially an atheist) supposedly knows that about a putative transcendent being.

So the argument would work a lot better if 1. was replaced by something like

1. A traditional set of theistic attributes attribute omnipotence, omniscience, and moral perfection to God.

Which would require changing 7. to

7. Therefore, this particular set of traditional theistic attributes isn't consistent.

I still don't think that the argument succeeds even if we make that move, but it's stronger.

My primary objection would probably be to premise 4. If 'evil' is read to mean 'imperfection', then a pretty strong argument can be made that imperfection is necessary in order for life to be most perfect (or perfected).

What I mean by that rather paradoxical statement is this:

If a person never knows fear, he or she could never know courage.

If people never knew suffering, people would never know compassion.

If people never knew ignorance, they would never know learning or discovery.

If people never knew difficulty, they would never know strength.

If people never knew loneliness, they would never truly value love.

If everything was already perfect, people could never grow.

And on and on, most of our most valued virtues only make sense in conditions of imperfection.

So one might argue that a truly good and truly loving God might intentionally throw eternal souls out of heavenly bliss into human avatars in a sort of transitory video game environment so that they might fully develop as persons, so that they might come to know what the human virtues mean.