Another thread on Islam, Muslims and terrorism, because its needed for some

[stvdv]

You still did not understand what I am saying brother.

I mean to say that "Sati is not scriptural". So what people practice does not dictate what scripture dictates.

Yes of course this is what I understood

 

[firedragon]

Yes of course this is what I understood

Okay.

 

[stvdv]

"Sati is not scriptural". So what people practice does not dictate what scripture dictates.

IF Sati were scriptural THEN would you (advocate to) practise it?

 

[firedragon]

IF Sati were scriptural THEN would you (advocate to) practise it?

Thats a bloody good question.

The answer is "No".

 

[stvdv]

Thats a bloody good question.

The answer is "No".

That's a bloody good answer

As a child, I told my parents "God would never want a father (Abraham) to offer his son as a sacrifice, MUST have been God testing Abraham"

So, I am aghast that people do this kind of stuff. IMO they are sick in the head, like demonic, without compassion and empathy
(And IF God disagrees with me THEN I would like Him to kill me here and now, because such a God I don't want to know)

 

[firedragon]

That's a bloody good answer

As a child, I told my parents "God would never want a father (Abraham) to offer his son as a sacrifice, MUST have been God testing Abraham"

So, I am aghast that people do this kind of stuff. IMO they are sick in the head, like demonic, without compassion and empathy
(And IF God disagrees with me THEN I would like Him to kill me here and now, because such a God I don't want to know)

Think about this. Abraham saw a dream apparently. Thus, how would one assume it was God commanding him?

 

[stvdv]

Think about this. Abraham saw a dream apparently. Thus, how would one assume it was God commanding him?

True, I think that is always very important to keep in mind. Beware IF you hear voices or see things, not beware in the sense of being scared of voices or visions, but to not follow them blind; so for "God's sake" use discrimination and Common Sense first, before acting

And it could have been God appearing to Abraham in the dream, assuming a form or a voice even, but testing Abraham

Hence I clearly understand my Master telling us "Common Sense before Divine Sense"
Even IF God (could) appear in physical form to you and tells you to do this and that THEN if it does not feel right, you better abstain.

And I think that most or all (*) Scriptures have been inspired by God, whether it was in a dream, as a voice, in a conscious or sub/super conscious state. Knowing this, I am always very careful to accept truths given in Scriptures. And humans also easily add parts to Scriptures, because they think that they are authority. I rather stay as close to the source as possible.

For example Sai Baba:
I rather stick to His own Books, written by Him personally, than resort to Books written by His devotees, when I want the truth (best are His tapes)

For example Baha'ullah:
I trust Him more than His son for conveying something close to the truth. Even though Bahau'llah might have said His son can be trusted

For example the Koran:
I rather read Koran verses than trust interpretations given by any scholar blindly (most might be correct, but even 1 wrong one can be catastrophic)
Koran was revealed by an Angel. So it's similar than God telling Abraham in a dream (that one is even more direct, no inter medium)

According to the traditional account the Koran was revealed to Muhammad, usually by an angel, gradually over a period of years until his death in 632 C.E. It is not clear how much of the Koran had been written down by the time of Muhammad’s death, but it seems probable that there was no single manuscript in which the Prophet himself had collected all the revelations. Nonetheless, there are traditions which describe how the Prophet dictated this or that portion of the Koran to his secretaries.

* And it's a bit problematic to know for sure now, because we can't check it AND I know for a fact that humans are prone to lie and exaggerate.

 

[74x12]

This is just conspiracy nonsense.

A US president couldn't even manage to keep it a secret that he was getting blowjobs from his intern secretary. But somehow a conspiracy of this size, necessarily involving thousands upon thousands of people from all over the world, and spanning multiple decades, remains the perfect secret?

Please.

Clinton and Lewinsky scandal was exposed on purpose to defame the presidency of the USA. It's by design to begin to shake people's faith in the system. They want us all to know that our system is a joke. It's weird to think about now but people used to respect the office ...

 

[firedragon]

And it could have been God appearing to Abraham in the dream, assuming a form or a voice even, but testing Abraham

The Quranic verse says "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think". There is no indication whatsoever that someone appeared in the dream. He just says he saw a dream.

 

[stvdv]

The Quranic verse says "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think". There is no indication whatsoever that someone appeared in the dream. He just says he saw a dream.

Thank you for the verse.

Indeed a bit different version of Abraham offering His son than the Bible gives. In the Bible it says that God spoke to Abraham (whether or not it was a dream is not clear to me), but indeed the Quran only says "I have seen in a dream that I ˹must˺ sacrifice you". So, here it does not say that God spoke. I like the part that Abraham tells His son and asks "tell me what you think". Of course one could argue that as God already told that part (God spoke), that it was not needed to repeat that again (God is not known to me to repeat continuously, only when we do stupid He might, if we are lucky, warn us again).

Anyway, "I am seeing in a dream" can very well mean "I have a vision, being a Divine Vision, Granted by God", like in "God showed me by vision". Sometimes God shows by vision, sometimes by word. And in Koran I could imagine God does not assume a form or name or words, because Allah has no form. So, seeing in a dream might be all what was given. Always difficult to interpret. But at least the lesson is quite clear.

The lesson seems similar. It is about full surrender to God, trusting that "thy will be done". Nice to see 2 different narrations, but to see that the lesson is quite similar. And at least it is made clear that the goal was not to offer His son, but to surrender.

Above is as always my personal view on things

 

[firedragon]

Anyway, "I am seeing in a dream" can very well mean "I have a vision, being a Divine Vision, Granted by God"

No brother. Thats an assumption based on existing beliefs.

Anyway, the verse says "Nawm" which means sleep. It does not have any indication of "divine vision granted by God".

 

[stvdv]

Anyway, "I am seeing in a dream" can very well mean "I have a vision, being a Divine Vision, Granted by God"

No brother. Thats an assumption based on existing beliefs.

Brother, that is just your assumption, based on your belief.
OR do you claim that the belief in the Koran is not an assumption based on existing beliefs?

Anyway, it is not you but Allah, that will inform me concerning that over which we differ

To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed,
He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He
intended] to test you in what He has given you; so advance to [all
that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will
[then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Anyway, the verse says "Nawm" which means sleep. It does not have any indication of "divine vision granted by God".

 

[firedragon]

Brother, that is just your assumption, based on your belief.
OR do you claim that the belief in the Koran is not an assumption based on existing beliefs?

Anyway, it is not you but Allah, that will inform me concerning that over which we differ

No it’s not. It’s just what the text says. It’s quite simple really.

 

[stvdv]

No it’s not. It’s just what the text says. It’s quite simple really.

That is your opinion, and I have mine. Religion is a belief system, it is not a fact system ... Do you understand that?
Because Religion is not a science, stating your above opinion as a fact is completely WRONG. It's quite simple really

 

[firedragon]

That is your opinion, and I have mine.

Not really brother. Its just what the text says. Not an opinion.

 

[stvdv]

Not really brother. Its just what the text says. Not an opinion.

You never heard of deeper meaning in verses or multiple meaning?
You never heard of literal meaning and figurative meaning?
You never heard about reading in between the lines?

Then there is interpretation, then there is vision
There is so much more than "it's just what the text says"

But bottom line you totally miss the point on what belief really means .... and that's belief, which means NOT fact

You better study RF Rules on this; RF Rules explain this concept very clear ... the part explaining about IMHO etc.

 

[firedragon]

You never heard of deeper meaning in verses or multiple meaning?
You never heard of literal meaning and figurative meaning?
You never heard about reading in between the lines?

Then there is interpretation, then there is vision
There is so much more than "it's just what the text says"

But bottom line you totally miss the point on what belief really means .... and that's belief, which means NOT fact

You better study RF Rules on this; RF Rules explain this concept very clear ... the part explaining about IMHO etc.

Brother. Since it is not my opinion, but just a translation of the verse and exactly what the text says, I do not submit to your accusation.

I think this discussion is going nowhere. I shall take my leave.

Peace.

 

[stvdv]

Brother. Since it is not my opinion, but just a translation of the verse and exactly what the text says, I do not submit to your accusation.

I do not submit to you imposing your opinion on me

I think this discussion is going nowhere. I shall take my leave.

Peace.

BUT I fully agree with this

Peace

 

[firedragon]

I do not submit to you imposing your opinion on me


BUT I fully agree with this

Peace

You insist that I am imposing my opinion with no understanding of a simple sentence.

so it’s you imposing your belief on something you seem not to understand

 

[stvdv]

You insist that I am imposing my opinion with no understanding of a simple sentence.

so it’s you imposing your belief on something you seem not to understand

You must have missed the RF Rule concerning this, as I already explained to you about the difference between opinion and fact in Religion