Angels in Art

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm more interested in why they all depict Jacob wrestling with an angel in the first place. My understanding of that story is that Jacob wrestled with God Himself.

See ... and a man wrestled with him.

Also, from Hoshea 12:4-5:

4. In the womb, he seized his brother's heel, and with his strength he strove with an angel.
5. He strove with an angel and prevailed; he wept and beseeched him; In Bethel he shall find Him, and there He shall speak with us.​

 

[RevOxley_501]

I have seen an angel--and i can remember quite well that it had wings--but they didnt seem to be important..

 

[lilithu]

Where the heck do you get that from? I know of absolutely no tradition that says that Satan was a Cherub and it certainly isn't found in Scripture. To the best of my knowledge, the Tradition of all three pre-Reformation churches (us, the RCs and the OOs) is that Satan was an Archangel, which is an entirely different rank of angel from the Cherubim. As Judaism doesn't consider Satan to be a fallen angel at all and Islam considers him to be a Djinn, I'm rather interested to see what could possibly be the source for your information.

James

Yeah I was surprised to see that also. Altho given how cherubs are usually drawn as chubby little tykes with cherubic cheeks and little dove wings the image of Satan as a fallen cherub did bring a grin to my face. I love it!

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Where the heck do you get that from? I know of absolutely no tradition that says that Satan was a Cherub and it certainly isn't found in Scripture. To the best of my knowledge, the Tradition of all three pre-Reformation churches (us, the RCs and the OOs) is that Satan was an Archangel, which is an entirely different rank of angel from the Cherubim. As Judaism doesn't consider Satan to be a fallen angel at all and Islam considers him to be a Djinn, I'm rather interested to see what could possibly be the source for your information.

James

Ezekiel 28

 

[lilithu]

There seems to be a progression from the Rembrandt to the Dore to the Delacroix to the Gauguin. In the Rembrandt, the angel almost seems to be embracing Jacob. In the Dore, Jacob is clearly opposing the angel but the angel's demeanor is patient and loving. In the Delacroix Jacob seems to be going at it with all he's got but the angel's response is ambiguous, at least to me. Is he fighting back? Is he just holding him off? Is he embracing Jacob? And in the Gauguin, bless him, the angel has Jacob in a chokehold and he's added an audience. Very unbiblical but I like the intentional anachronism.

I love everything by the Master but in this case I think I like the Delacroix best. Rembrandt's painting is intimate but doesn't seem to capture the struggle as well as the intimacy. Dore's painting is beautiful but, well, stiff. And Gauguin, he's deliberate turned the scene into banality and made a strong sociological statement in the process. But the Delecroix, to me it captures all the ambiguities of the story. Jacob is wrestling with God (or an angel of God). He is opposing God. Yet there are few things more intimate than wrestling. (I can only think of one. ) Jacob is putting all that he as into this. And what is God doing in response? We don't really know.

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing these with us Jay!

 

[lilithu]

Ezekiel 28

What does the king of Tyre have to do with Satan?

 

[Bishka]

I originally asked Katzpur the question though, as she stated so matter-of-factly that angels have no wings. I figured she may have seen some to be so sure, despite some Biblical descriptions.

Well, as you know, both myself and Katzpur believe in more revelation past the Bible, that's where we get that idea.

 

[SoyLeche]

Well, as you know, both myself and Katzpur believe in more revelation past the Bible, that's where we get that idea.

From the LDS perspective:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/129

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

Basically angels, humans, etc are all the same "thing" - just in different states. For example, Gabirel would have fallen in the "spirits of just men made perfect" category - as there were no ressurected beings at the time. (In case you were wondering, Joseph Smith indicated that Gabriel was Noah in life, although that isn't in the scriptures that have been cannonized)

 

[d.]

there's a special thread for discussing the wings of angels.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41270

 

[SoyLeche]

there's a special thread for discussing the wings of angels.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41270

Thanks - I thought that's where I was

 

[Buttercup]

For those who are curious, many consider this passage a description of Satan:

EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . ." (NIV)



Dore's depiction of Satan after being cast down from the mount:

​

 

[lilithu]

For those who are curious, many consider this passage a description of Satan:

EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . ." (NIV)​

Then why do the pasages repeatedly refer to the King of Tyre?
​

 

[Buttercup]

Then why do the pasages repeatedly refer to the King of Tyre?
[/indent]

I'm thinking the author is saying that the King of Tyre will suffer the same fate as Satan, namely being cast down from the graces of God. The King of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden, the King of Tyre was not annointed guardian cherub. Obviously Dore translated Satan into an angel as well.

If I have time later today I'll look up more passages that refer to Satan in this manner. I grew up as a Christian thinking that Satan was an angel before his fall as well. I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

 

[lilithu]

I'm thinking the author is saying that the King of Tyre will suffer the same fate as Satan, namely being cast down from the graces of God. The King of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden, the King of Tyre was not annointed guardian cherub. Obviously Dore translated Satan into an angel as well.

If I have time later today I'll look up more passages that refer to Satan in this manner. I grew up as a Christian thinking that Satan was an angel before his fall as well. I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

But nowhere does the passage mention Satan. Nor is Satan ever mentioned in the Garden of Eden story btw. So the if only reason given for why people think that Satan is a cherub is this passage then one cannot reference the cherub in this passage as proof that it's refering to Satan.

The way that I interepret the passage, Ezekial, in the fine tradition of the Jewish prophets, is bearing witness to the sins of the King of Tyre. The king had been favored by God, the king had been given power and wealth. And instead of being grateful and therfore generous with the people of Israel he had scorned God and moved against Israel therefore will be cast cast down by God. The references to being in the garden and being annointed a cherub, imo, are just ways of saying that the King of Tyre had been in a good place. They're metaphors.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

What does the king of Tyre have to do with Satan?

The passage has been traditionally thought, as I understand it, to have a double application to both Satan, and the King of Tyre under Satan's control.

 

[Buttercup]

So the if only reason given for why people think that Satan is a cherub is this passage then one cannot reference the cherub in this passage as proof that it's refering to Satan.

Some scripture that refer to Satan as some form of angel or dragon:

“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”
2Corinthians 11:14-15

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him
Rev. 12:7–9, NIV

Also, here's some commentary by Rabbi Tovia Singer on the subject:

“For the Jewish faith, Satan's purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible. It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning "messenger." The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means "messenger." Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of God who carries out the divine will of the Almighty. There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, Satan included, opposes God's will.”

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html

 

[dawny0826]

Where the heck do you get that from? I know of absolutely no tradition that says that Satan was a Cherub and it certainly isn't found in Scripture. To the best of my knowledge, the Tradition of all three pre-Reformation churches (us, the RCs and the OOs) is that Satan was an Archangel, which is an entirely different rank of angel from the Cherubim. As Judaism doesn't consider Satan to be a fallen angel at all and Islam considers him to be a Djinn, I'm rather interested to see what could possibly be the source for your information.

James

It's always been my understanding, since childhood, James, that Satan was an angel. To be honest, it wasn't until recent years that I even took notice to the fact that there are different types of angels. So, trust me...

I don't claim to be an expert on angels. Which is why I chose my wording carefully. I believe I stated that Satan was supposedly a Cherub.

I've simply heard and read OTHERS refer to Satan as a Cherub.

Ezekial, Chapter 28, verses 12-16 states that Satan was the "anointed cherub". I have a hunch though that your interpretation of these verses may be a little different than mine.

I simply believe that Satan was a an angel cast out of heaven.

Edit: It seems that I'm not the only one who has posted from Ezekial, Chapter 28.

 

[Katzpur]

I originally asked Katzpur the question though, as she stated so matter-of-factly that angels have no wings. I figured she may have seen some to be so sure, despite some Biblical descriptions.

No, I can't say that I have!

 

[Katzpur]

It's always been my understanding, since childhood, James, that Satan was an angel.

I simply believe that Satan was a an angel cast out of heaven.

That would be my understanding, too, Dawn.

 

[Buttercup]

That would be my understanding, too, Dawn.

Well, that makes at least three of us. Except now of course I don't believe any of it.