Analysis of Roman Catholicism

[columbus]

The New Testament, despite being believed to be inspired by the Spirit, is not the word of God but accounts of spirit inspired human disciples of Christ about the activities of Jesus and the Spirit in the developing community, to be used as guides to future disciples to orient them in their own discipleship.

Exactly.
Scriptural literalism wasn't really a thing back then. One of Jesus's meta-messages was "Don't put too much Faith in human authorities like the priests and scripture. Just do the right thing".
Tom

 

[metis]

I read the thread concerning whether or not RC is valid, and the various postings concerning this topic. We have to consider the validity of RC....is it Christian, or not?

One of the ten commandments, is, "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

Jesus told us, that we don't know how to pray, and thus, He gave us The Lord's Prayer. If you note, The Lord God Almighty, is the only one who we pray to. Jesus, Himself, never instructed us to pray to Himself, so we must glorify the Lord God Almighty, only. Compare this to the RC religion, where they create their own man-made 'saints', pray to them and to Mary, assuming they will provide intercession to God. This is against scripture. We know that The Holy Ghost makes intercession for us, and asking God for things in Christ's name, will provide intercession.

John 14:21-23 is an interesting set of scriptures. Do you know of any minister who has experienced this scripture [personal manifestation of (seeing) Christ]? These scripture verses are real/true. I have experienced them, and much more. Others have also.

Taking into account the above, should we not seek wisdom from God, directly, instead of allowing any minister to 'represent' us? Just a thought!

What did Jesus say to the apostles not long before he was executed as far as their roles are concerned? Secondly, do you have a minister of any sort as a head of your church? And finally, you quote the Bible but how and who selected the bible you use?

 

[metis]

Jesus never made the "sign of the cross" or prayed with Rosary beads. These are man made inventions. Did God give man the authority to do this?

And the Way didn't meet in church buildings either, so do you attend one? Nor did they use hymnals, so do you use one? Nor did they have a Bible, so do you use one? Nor did they even have the "New Testament", so do you read it?

 

[columbus]

One of the ten commandments, is, "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

Exactly. But when you listen to Christians it's "Jesus this" and "Jesus that". The God of Abraham and Moses and Samuel was not Jesus or a Trinity.
Christian Trinitarianism completely breaks the 1st Commandment. They can make up oxymoronic concepts like Trinitarian monotheism and reinterpret the Original Testament all they want to. But I have read the book.
Tom

 

[metis]

Calling themselves 'Father' and 'Holy Father', is against scripture, also.

RC puts church clergymen on pedestals where they do not belong.

Only because of a faulty translation going into English. "Father", as referring to a priest, comes from the word "presbyterios" in Greek, which would be better translated as "elder'; and "Father", as used by Jesus is "abba" in Hebrew and Aramaic, means your father and is more personal. Jesus used it in a more symbolic sense, however.

 

[metis]

If you change the Word of God, you worship a different god. The Word of God, IS GOD!!!!!

You have slipped into idol worship. A book, and that obviously includes the Bible as a set of books, is not God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus never made the "sign of the cross" or prayed with Rosary beads. These are man made inventions. Did God give man the authority to do this?

I give my mother a Christmas card sometimes when she doesn't expect it. She doesn't say its wrong. Shes actually pleased.

Similarly, the Sign of the Cross signifies god the father, son, and holy spirit. When I go to Church once in a blue moon usually Easter, it reminds me of my baptismal vows.

What god would object to that remembrance?

When I prayed the rosary, Id think of how jesus said "this is my mother" to his disciples. I was raised single parent mother so asking Marys help just as Jesus and just as Saint Francis is just a way to ask for guidance.

Why would a god tell anyone to turn their back on his sons mother and brothers and sisters of christ?

Christians make up the body of christ. In Catholicism, death isn't the end. Its a beginning of a new life. There is no dead. So its like talking to my mother. If she passed away, she would still be present as she is today.

What god would tell his followers to ignore the people he sent to heaven? Maybe people in hell, but heaven????

Protestant logic doesn't make sense.

Also Catholics are Christians. They (Orthodox) are the first Christians. Not all Catholics are Roman.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The various RC beliefs/practises are explained to the general public, as being instructions given to the church directly by the Apostles. There is no way to verify them, as being from God or not. These 'instructions' are not in the scriptures, but are assumed by RC to be valid 'additions'. This is the answer I got, when I communicated with various RC clergymen. Calling themselves 'Father' and 'Holy Father', is against scripture, also.

RC puts church clergymen on pedestals where they do not belong.

Have you ever genuinely understand and experience catholicism? Priests through the years tell me different things. I notice people put them on pedestals. My friend said someone tried to jump on the pope. Her words, "thats like jumping on god."

Get out of the politics. Go to the church and pray to god. Repent of your sins as you would usually do. Crack open your bible and give a good read. No catholic would bar you from Church for actually experiencing devotion.

We call priest father (not Father) given the apostles are roles taken on from jesus. So like lords and Lord you have Father and fathers of the church. Its like my calling my ma mother to you out of respect. She didnt say not to. Its just a cultural thing.

"Dont call another man Father" is saying dont call anoher man god. It has nothing to do with the wors father. Its treating the priests and People as if they are god. That is what scripture means.

Read the context.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you change the Word of God, you worship a different god. The Word of God, IS GOD!!!!!

You just went into idolatry.

Word means Jesus not the Bible

Jesus gets his words/law from the Father not Hebrew scriptures

The Bible is a testimony about god's Word (The Father's Son); the testimony is not the son himself.

The word is a play on words (no pun) in English. Word/message/testimony/saying not Jesus

John 5:39 "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me."

I know scriptures are sacred to you; however, putting them up as if they are Jesus Christ is a big no-no. Jesus is the Word not the Bible. The Bible is about Jesus (and so forth). Do you bow down to the Bible?

On that note, if you do, that's like accusing Catholics of bowing down to statues. If you don't bow to the Bible why in the world would you think Catholics bow to statues (if that is also your claim)?​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Presumably your final authority is your written word, whereas theirs is the living testimony of their "apostolic successors".

Wow. That sums up the debate. Which is more trustworthy, hypothetically speaking: Written words that have been changed throughout time or testimonies that still live on through the apostles today.

Ha. Maybe you should be Catholic?

 

[Glaurung]

And the Way didn't meet in church buildings either, so do you attend one? Nor did they use hymnals, so do you use one? Nor did they have a Bible, so do you use one? Nor did they even have the "New Testament", so do you read it?

To amend my own thoughts onto this. I don't understand the reasoning that if something is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible, it must, automatically, be contrary to it. You don't have to be Catholic or Orthodox to see how shallow that kind of reasoning is.

The idea that the Bible was ever intended to be all-encompassing description of Christian practice and teaching just doesn't seem at all workable, not to mention self-defeating considering the Scriptures never claim to be any such thing.

 

[Desert Snake]

You just went into idolatry.

Word means Jesus not the Bible

Not necessarily. The Scripture is Divine, in non-Catholic belief.

Jesus gets his words/law from the Father not Hebrew scriptures

Actually they parallel, with modification of Covenant, of course.

The Bible is a testimony about god's Word (The Father's Son); the testimony is not the son himself.

...

The word is a play on words (no pun) in English. Word/message/testimony/saying not Jesus

John 5:39 "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me."

This contradicts your position.

I know scriptures are sacred to you; however, putting them up as if they are Jesus Christ is a big no-no. Jesus is the Word not the Bible. The Bible is about Jesus (and so forth). Do you bow down to the Bible?

On that note, if you do, that's like accusing Catholics of bowing down to statues. If you don't bow to the Bible why in the world would you think Catholics bow to statues (if that is also your claim)?

Actually, a Statue is man made, ultimately; The Scripture is Divine.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

I read the thread concerning whether or not RC is valid, and the various postings concerning this topic. We have to consider the validity of RC....is it Christian, or not?

One of the ten commandments, is, "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

Jesus told us, that we don't know how to pray, and thus, He gave us The Lord's Prayer. If you note, The Lord God Almighty, is the only one who we pray to. Jesus, Himself, never instructed us to pray to Himself, so we must glorify the Lord God Almighty, only. Compare this to the RC religion, where they create their own man-made 'saints', pray to them and to Mary, assuming they will provide intercession to God. This is against scripture. We know that The Holy Ghost makes intercession for us, and asking God for things in Christ's name, will provide intercession.

John 14:21-23 is an interesting set of scriptures. Do you know of any minister who has experienced this scripture [personal manifestation of (seeing) Christ]? These scripture verses are real/true. I have experienced them, and much more. Others have also.

Taking into account the above, should we not seek wisdom from God, directly, instead of allowing any minister to 'represent' us? Just a thought!

And all of Christendom prays to Jesus, regardless of his instruction.
The saints are venerated as intermediaries. They are not seen as equal to God.
The rosary makes it clear that Mary is being invoked to intercede with God.
And if you eliminate the ministers how will you know if your interpretation of Christianity is right?
The Bible enjoins Christians against replying on their own understanding .

 

[DragonHawk1959]

To amend my own thoughts onto this. I don't understand the reasoning that if something is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible, it must, automatically, be contrary to it. You don't have to be Catholic or Orthodox to see how shallow that kind of reasoning is.

The idea that the Bible was ever intended to be all-encompassing description of Christian practice and teaching just doesn't seem at all workable, not to mention self-defeating considering the Scriptures never claim to be any such thing.

You're neglecting the additional difficulty posed by poor translation in the KJV, and all of the rewrites thereof.
Primus: Abominable is an abominable translation of the Hebrew word toevah which more closely means - to wander, or become lost from the proper way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please don't use red. It hurts my eyes. I do read what you say.

Not necessarily. The Scripture is Divine, in non-Catholic belief.

The scripture is not Jesus. Divine is another word for holy. It's not a person it's an adjective and attribute put onto a person or object some people use for worship or reverence. You can call the Bible divine/sacred/worthy/whatever.

It's not a person.

I don't know how Catholicism relates to my statement.

Actually they parallel, with modification of Covenant, of course.

Hebrew scriptures are not god. So, he does not get his words from scripture (regardless if they are similar or parallel), he gets them from his father. Scripture was written years later.

...

The Bible is about god or christ. Scripture is not christ himself.

This contradicts your position.

John 5:39 "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me."
​

Why do you study the scriptures as if they have eternal life [as if they are christ who brings eternal life etc]? The scripture testifies about me.

They are Not Christ. They testify about him.

Actually, a Statue is man made, ultimately; The Scripture is Divine.

I know scriptures are sacred to you; however, putting them up as if they are Jesus Christ is a big no-no. Jesus is the Word not the Bible. The Bible is about Jesus (and so forth). Do you bow down to the Bible?

On that note, if you do, that's like accusing Catholics of bowing down to statues. If you don't bow to the Bible why in the world would you think Catholics bow to statues (if that is also your claim)?​

I'm rereading, I don't see how your reply relates to my post. If you are seeing scripture as Christ you are doing the same thing as you claim Catholics are doing to statues. Scriptures (the book) and statues (block of stone) are just objects.

None of you I would hope worships a book and a statue. I know and experience Catholicism and I know they do not worship statues and see a block of cement as divine. I can't even debate that. It's just so common sense that it would make even some ex-catholics who do respect the Church laugh.

As for people who see the Bible as Christ, that's foreign to me. I'm hearing you guys worshiping a book. Now I can accuse you as many of you accuse Catholics of worshiping statues, but that's not me. I rather try to understand why you'd put a book so high like that when the Word is Christ and Christ's Words are his Fathers. Scripture isn't written by Christ nor his Father. If you can't find the Christ in you without scripture, then you are using that scripture as an idol.​

I can't think of another way to put it unless you can explain it for me?

 

[Shlomoh]

I read the thread concerning whether or not RC is valid, and the various postings concerning this topic. We have to consider the validity of RC....is it Christian, or not?

One of the ten commandments, is, "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

Some of my best friends are Catholic. I'm from New York City so I know Catholics. They don't have other Gods. They have the sameGod

 

[Desert Snake]

The scripture is not Jesus. Divine is another word for holy. It's not a person it's an adjective and attribute put onto a person or object some people use for worship or reverence. You can call the Bible divine/sacred/worthy/whatever.

Divine is different from 'worthy', etc. I wrote Divine, I meant Divine.

It's not a person.

I don't know how Catholicism relates to my statement.

Mmkay not a problem. It isn't a person , but it's inspired Divine Text.

Hebrew scriptures are not god. So, he does not get his words from scripture (regardless if they are similar or parallel), he gets them from his father. Scripture was written years later.

Jesus stated that Moses spoke of Him, , and that the people He was speaking to, should have known that, etc. You are partly correct, but not entirely correct. the NT is divine by default /Jesus's words, and divine by inspiration /Epistles

The Bible is about god or christ. Scripture is not christ himself.

John 5:39 "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me."
​

Why do you study the scriptures as if they have eternal life [as if they are christ who brings eternal life etc]? The scripture testifies about me.

This means that the Scripture is Divine.
Jesus would not have referenced it otherwise

They are Not Christ. They testify about him.

I know scriptures are sacred to you; however, putting them up as if they are Jesus Christ is a big no-no. Jesus is the Word not the Bible. The Bible is about Jesus (and so forth). Do you bow down to the Bible?

On that note, if you do, that's like accusing Catholics of bowing down to statues. If you don't bow to the Bible why in the world would you think Catholics bow to statues (if that is also your claim)?​

I'm rereading, I don't see how your reply relates to my post. If you are seeing scripture as Christ you are doing the same thing as you claim Catholics are doing to statues. Scriptures (the book) and statues (block of stone) are just objects.

.If some catholics bow to idols, that's idolatry.
There is a fine line between revering the crucifix in the church, and turning t into an idol.
No. The Scripture is not like a statue, because it's divinely inspired

None of you I would hope worships a book and a statue. I know and experience Catholicism and I know they do not worship statues and see a block of cement as divine. I can't even debate that. It's just so common sense that it would make even some ex-catholics who do respect the Church laugh.

As for people who see the Bible as Christ, that's foreign to me. I'm hearing you guys worshiping a book. Now I can accuse you as many of you accuse Catholics of worshiping statues, but that's not me. I rather try to understand why you'd put a book so high like that when the Word is Christ and Christ's Words are his Fathers. Scripture isn't written by Christ nor his Father. If you can't find the Christ in you without scripture, then you are using that scripture as an idol.​

I can't think of another way to put it unless you can explain it for me?

Jesus told us that the Scripture is Divine, by referencing it /and the Prophets. We don't have to guess, at that.

 

[metis]

Divine is different from 'worthy', etc. I wrote Divine, I meant Divine.




Mmkay not a problem. It isn't a person , but it's inspired Divine Text.




Jesus stated that Moses spoke of Him, , and that the people He was speaking to, should have known that, etc. You are partly correct, but not entirely correct. the NT is divine by default /Jesus's words, and divine by inspiration /Epistles





This means that the Scripture is Divine.
Jesus would not have referenced it otherwise



.If some catholics bow to idols, that's idolatry.
There is a fine line between revering the crucifix in the church, and turning t into an idol.
No. The Scripture is not like a statue, because it's divinely inspired


Jesus told us that the Scripture is Divine, by referencing it /and the Prophets. We don't have to guess, at that.

Yes, Jesus had his opinion on the Tanakh.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Mmkay not a problem. It isn't a person , but it's inspired Divine Text.

If it isn't a person and only a divine text, why do you call it god?

Divine is different from 'worthy', etc. I wrote Divine, I meant Divine.

Take out worthy. I said Divine/sacred/holy etc. It's an adjective not a noun.

This means that the Scripture is Divine.
Jesus would not have referenced it otherwise

It says why would you go to scripture to find eternal life when even scripture testifies about Christ. In other words, go to Christ not scriptures if you want eternal life.

If some catholics bow to idols, that's idolatry.

If you go to a Church, go in front of a statue, bow down or kneel, and pray to god who are you praying to, the statue or god?

Some people think that bowing in front of a statue they are automatically praying to a statue even though they address god regardless of what they are in front of. It's a personal preference. We are always standing in front of something when we pray. I pray in front of the pictures of my grandmothers but I don't worship their pictures. That's silly.

Unless you personally feel you are worshiping a statue by being in front of a statue but addressing god, I don't understand how you don't see the differene between praying in front of something of memory and praying to something as if it were divine.

I scratch my head every time over this argument. I can understand the Mary and Pope arguments. I can kind of understand "praying to dead" if you like, but that's kinda silly argument in itself. But praying to statues!

Ya'll, I don't know what to say about that. Maybe try it.

 

[Desert Snake]

If it isn't a person and only a divine text, why do you call it god?

We don't call it God. We call it the 'word' of God.

Take out worthy. I said Divine/sacred/holy etc. It's an adjective not a noun.

Semantics? It is Divine/Holy

It says why would you go to scripture to find eternal life when even scripture testifies about Christ. In other words, go to Christ not scriptures if you want eternal life.

....

If you go to a Church, go in front of a statue, bow down or kneel, and pray to god who are you praying to, the statue or god?

I don't do that.

Unless you personally feel you are worshiping a statue by being in front of a statue but addressing god, I don't understand how you don't see the differene between praying in front of something of memory and praying to something as if it were divine.

I didn't bring up statues. I don't know why you keep talking about statues.