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An introduction.

od19g6

Member
"What do you mean by the word 'converse'?"

One may like to read post #119 in another thread which is relevant here also, please.

Regards

God's current revelation for this day and age also uses the word 'say'.

It says in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:

Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.

page.56, verse.99
 

od19g6

Member
Baha'ullah was right about himself only:
  1. as he never had any direct Converse from/with G-d.
  2. All Bahaullah's books have been, therefore, as told by UHJ* are revealed means written by and authored by Bahaullah and none from G-d.
  3. *like "The Kitáb-i-Íqán – The Book of Certitude"
    A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62" ----- The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library
  4. And hence it means written by and authored by Bahaullah and not by G-d not even a word of it.
Muhammad did have direct Converse with G-d, literally, and with so many others. Quran is every letter of it, every vowel of it and every dot of it authored by G-d and not by Muhammad. Right, please?

Regards

Every Prophet / Messenger conversed with God but it wasn't with a human voice, God is beyond His creation.

Do it not say in the Qur'an that: there is nothing like unto Him.

Let me give you an example. You know how in christianity most of the followers believe that Jesus Christ was God Himself and that he died on the cross?

Well it was revealed in the Qur'an that Jesus Christ was a Prophet and not God Himself, and muslims explains that if Jesus Christ was God Himself like so many christians believe, then why did he die one the cross? God Himself can never die.

So it is with conversing with a human voice, God is beyond everything, God created the human voice so why would He use it Himself?

We all can converse with God through prayer and meditation, but God never talked with anyone with a human voice, but with inspiration.


This is what Baha'u'llah says about the nature of the Prophets / Messengers of God:

'...since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven.

These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations'.

Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings p.66, 67
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
God's current revelation for this day and age also uses the word 'say'.

It says in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:

Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.

page.56, verse.99

Please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" a core book Bahaullah wrote (in 1861-1862) before the period when he took the covenant from others in 1863, while he avoided to take it himself.

Regards
 

od19g6

Member
Please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" a core book Bahaullah wrote (in 1861-1862) before the period when he took the covenant from others in 1863, while he avoided to take it himself.

Regards

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is actually the core book of the baha'i faith.

Tht Kitáb-i-íqán is the book of certitude.

Baha'u'llah reviled and wrote a lot of revelation with his own hand.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is actually the core book of the baha'i faith.

Tht Kitáb-i-íqán is the book of certitude.

Baha'u'llah reviled and wrote a lot of revelation with his own hand.
I am not interested in the Bahai Faith/Bahaism, my interest is in understanding Bahaullah. Bahaullah never claimed to be a Bahai. He left Shia Twelver Islam, then left Babism ( as do the Babis/Shia Twelver in the Forum say), to Bahaullah he was of No-Religion.
Of course, Bahaism people will differ with me, and they have a right to do so. Right, please?

Regards
 

od19g6

Member
I am not interested in the Bahai Faith/Bahaism, my interest is in understanding Bahaullah. Bahaullah never claimed to be a Bahai. He left Shia Twelver Islam, then left Babism ( as do the Babis/Shia Twelver in the Forum say), to Bahaullah he was of No-Religion.
Of course, Bahaism people will differ with me, and they have a right to do so. Right, please?

Regards

The word baha'i signifies that one is a follower of Baha'u'llah, just as the word christian signifies that one is a follower of Jesus Christ, and the word muslim signifies one is a follower of Prophet Muhammad.

More information on Baha'u'llah:

Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The word baha'i signifies that one is a follower of Baha'u'llah, just as the word christian signifies that one is a follower of Jesus Christ, and the word muslim signifies one is a follower of Prophet Muhammad.

More information on Baha'u'llah:

Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
Who first used the word "Bahai" for himself, one must know. Right, please?
Who first said that "Bahaism" is his religion, one must know. Right, please?
Kindly let us know with reference, please?
Anybody, please

Regards
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Who first used the word "Bahai" for himself, one must know. Right, please?
Who first said that "Bahaism" is his religion, one must know. Right, please?
Kindly let us know with reference, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

The Baha'i Faith first emerged as a religion distinct from Babism with Baha'u'llah's declaration in the garden of Ridvan during the period 21 April to 2nd May 1863. During this time Baha'u'llah made it clear He was 'Him whom God shall make manifest' or the Promised One foretold by the Bab. The Bab's central mission was to prepare His followers to recognise Him whom God shall make manifest and most Babis went on to recognise Baha'u'llah as such. It was considered some Babis knew Baha'u'llah to be Him whom God shall make manifest, long before this was made explicit. In fact Baha'u'llah had His first intimation of His station when in the Siyal Chal, an infamous prison in Tehran where Baha'u'llah was incarcerated August to December 1852. It was Abdu'l-Baha his eldest son who first recognised His father's station during this time and so would have been the first Baha'i.

In regards the early followers of Baha'u'llah you might like to consider His apostles:

The Apostles of Bahá'u'lláh were nineteen eminent early followers of Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith. The apostles were designated as such by Shoghi Effendi, head of the religion in the earlier half of the 20th century.

These individuals played a vital role in the development of Bahá'u'lláh's Faith, consolidating its adherents and bringing its teachings around the world. To Bahá'ís, they filled a similar role as the
sons of Jacob, the apostles of Jesus, Muhammad's companions, or the Báb's Letters of the Living.

Apostles of Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia
 

od19g6

Member
Who first used the word "Bahai" for himself, one must know. Right, please?
Who first said that "Bahaism" is his religion, one must know. Right, please?
Kindly let us know with reference, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

That's like asking who first used the word 'christian' for himself and who first used the word 'muslim' for himself.

It is not called bahaism, it is officially called the baha'i faith.

I'll look up the information and let you know.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
That's like asking who first used the word 'christian' for himself and who first used the word 'muslim' for himself.

It is not called bahaism, it is officially called the baha'i faith.

I'll look up the information and let you know.
I am sure that Jesus was never a Christian, he was born a Jew and died a Jew like his mother Mary. "Christian" is a misnomer that was adopted much later after Jesus. Right, please? If I am wrong please inform me with reference.
As for the word "Muslim":
[6:15]قُلۡ اَغَیۡرَ اللّٰہِ اَتَّخِذُ وَلِیًّا فَاطِرِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ وَ ہُوَ یُطۡعِمُ وَ لَا یُطۡعَمُ ؕ قُلۡ اِنِّیۡۤ اُمِرۡتُ اَنۡ اَکُوۡنَ اَوَّلَ مَنۡ اَسۡلَمَ وَ لَا تَکُوۡنَنَّ مِنَ الۡمُشۡرِکِیۡنَ ﴿۱۵﴾
Say, ‘Shall I take any protector other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth, Who feeds and is not fed?’ Say, ‘I have been commanded to be the first of those who submit.’ And be thou not of those who associate partners with God.
[6:164]لَا شَرِیۡکَ لَہٗ ۚ وَ بِذٰلِکَ اُمِرۡتُ وَ اَنَا اَوَّلُ الۡمُسۡلِمِیۡنَ ﴿۱۶۴﴾
‘He has no partner. And so am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.’ (First of the Muslims)
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am
T.B.Irving no associate has He, with that am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."
al-An`am 6:163
Bahaullah never said that he was a Bahai or he followed Bahaism, to my knowledge.
I have read Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude one of the topmost core book of Bahaullah in Farsi/Persian, Arabic and English, he has definitely not mentioned in it that he was a Bahai or follows Bahaims. Right, please?

Regards

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Every Prophet / Messenger conversed with God but it wasn't with a human voice, God is beyond His creation.

Do it not say in the Qur'an that: there is nothing like unto Him.

Let me give you an example. You know how in christianity most of the followers believe that Jesus Christ was God Himself and that he died on the cross?

Well it was revealed in the Qur'an that Jesus Christ was a Prophet and not God Himself, and muslims explains that if Jesus Christ was God Himself like so many christians believe, then why did he die one the cross? God Himself can never die.

So it is with conversing with a human voice, God is beyond everything, God created the human voice so why would He use it Himself?

We all can converse with God through prayer and meditation, but God never talked with anyone with a human voice, but with inspiration.


This is what Baha'u'llah says about the nature of the Prophets / Messengers of God:

'...since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven.

These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations'.

Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings p.66, 67
Please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" one of the core book of Bahaullah that he wrote (in 1861-1862) before the period when he took the covenant from others in 1863, while he avoided to bind with this Covenant to take it for himself.
Gleanings is not a book written by Bahaullah originally. It is a compilation done by the "intelligent" Shoghí Effendí as and how he wanted to mold the passages and present then in English. I understand that someone asked him about the origin of some passages in it and he replied that he had forgotten as to from which original book/tablet he has rendered the translation.
So, please don't reference from it to me as a source book of Bahaullah as that will be a misrepresentation, I understand, of Bahaullah unless one gives the original quote in the original language side by side with the translation. If I am wrong, please do inform me with the references. Right, please?

Regards
_____________
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
A selection of passages from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, compiled and translated by Shoghi Effendi, including extracts from Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, as well as other Tablets.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Hi everyone.

I'm new to this site but it looks interesting, like a place for a lot of topics.

I'm Baha'i, have anyone here have heard of the baha'i faith, if you have what do you think of it?

Because I am new I don't really know if this is the appropriate section for me because we have to be careful about the word debate. Sometimes debate could mean to argue and I don't want to do that. For me this is about sharing beliefs and information and finding truths.

Thank you.

I believe you can't debate if you don't have any arguments.

I believe so but only marginally as in what appears in debates.

I believe on could be one if one knew Jesus as Lord and Savior, otherwise I would view it as useless. Even if you met the requirement the religion would lead to error as most of them do.

I believe there is only one truth and that is Jesus.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Hi. Thanks for the question.

The number 9 in the baha'i faith is a symbol of completeness, 9 is the highest single digit.

I believe in numerology 9 is the number of war. 6 is the number of peace. That is why 666 is the fake lamb that looks peaceful but when the number is reduced to a single digit it is 9 war.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
An introduction

Friend @od19g6 , please.

There is a little question I asked all Bahais friends in the forum:

Does one believe unequivocally, in straightforward and honest manner that Bahaullah is God and there is no God other than Bahaullah, please ?

If yes, then what is the difference between Jesus God,which Christianity people believe and Krishna God , which some Hindu denominations believe and Bahaullah God, which Bahaullah's followers believe? Are they all truthful claimant of God-head, please?

Without this little question, introduction of a Bahai is not complete, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 
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Workman

UNIQUE
A very warm welcoming od1916...

than what is the difference between Jesus God,which Christianity people believe and Krishna God , which some Hindu denominations believe and Bahaullah God, which Bahaullah's followers believe? Are they all truthful claimant of God-head, please?
The question before is not mine for answer...But I say to you the difference...friend.

The Difference is the Understanding...
And each Understanding was made in their ‘Love’ to it....and Love comes ONLY from ONE source..The Only TRUE God. And where there is Love, there The TRUTH will be too...your LOVE by it.

Peace...
 
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od19g6

Member
An introduction

Friend @od19g6 , please.

There is a little question I asked all Bahais friends in the forum:

Does one believe unequivocally, in straightforward and honest manner that Bahaullah is God and there is no God other than Bahaullah, please ?

If yes, then what is the difference between Jesus God,which Christianity people believe and Krishna God , which some Hindu denominations believe and Bahaullah God, which Bahaullah's followers believe? Are they all truthful claimant of God-head, please?

Without this little question, introduction of a Bahai is not complete, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

Hi paarsurrey.

I know I've been off the forum for awhile but the reason why is because I actually been waiting on something to show you but it hasn't came up yet, and when it does we'll have conversations more.

But to your current question, no Prophet / Messenger was God Himself. What they are is Manifestations of God, that means that all the Prophets / Messengers displays all the names and attributes of God at the highest level perfectly.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi paarsurrey.

I know I've been off the forum for awhile but the reason why is because I actually been waiting on something to show you but it hasn't came up yet, and when it does we'll have conversations more.

But to your current question, no Prophet / Messenger was God Himself. What they are is Manifestations of God, that means that all the Prophets / Messengers displays all the names and attributes of God at the highest level perfectly.
Thanks for one's reply, please.
Bahaullah has coined this term "Manifestations of God" and he played it too much, other Prophets/Messengers did rarely used it. I understand:
  1. G-d did not have any direct Converse with Bahaullah.*
  2. G-d did not appoint/choose Bahaullah as His Prophet/Messenger in direct Converse, and there is a penalty/punishment for one with whom G-d did not have Converse but one claim to be His Prophet/Messenger**.Therefore, Bahaullah, I understand, avoided it. Right, please?
  3. Bahaullah used the term "manifestation of G-d" , and as some Bahaullah's followers are given to understand Bahaullah claimed divinity behind this disguise for which there is no punishment in this world .G-d did not confer any divinity on Bahaullah, there is no direct Converse from G-d with Bahaullah in this connection. Right, please?
Regards
___________
*[[6:94]وَ مَنۡ اَظۡلَمُ مِمَّنِ افۡتَرٰی عَلَی اللّٰہِ کَذِبًا اَوۡ قَالَ اُوۡحِیَ اِلَیَّ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡحَ اِلَیۡہِ شَیۡءٌ وَّ مَنۡ قَالَ سَاُنۡزِلُ مِثۡلَ مَاۤ اَنۡزَلَ اللّٰہُ ؕ وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی اِذِ الظّٰلِمُوۡنَ فِیۡ غَمَرٰتِ الۡمَوۡتِ وَ الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ بَاسِطُوۡۤا اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ ۚ اَخۡرِجُوۡۤا اَنۡفُسَکُمۡ ؕ اَلۡیَوۡمَ تُجۡزَوۡنَ عَذَابَ الۡہُوۡنِ بِمَا کُنۡتُمۡ تَقُوۡلُوۡنَ عَلَی اللّٰہِ غَیۡرَ الۡحَقِّ وَ کُنۡتُمۡ عَنۡ اٰیٰتِہٖ تَسۡتَکۡبِرُوۡنَ ﴿۹۴﴾
And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says, ‘It has been revealed to me,’ while nothing has been revealed to him; and who says, ‘I will send down the like of that which Allah has sent down?’ And if thou couldst only see, when the wrongdoers are in the agonies of death, and the angels stretch forth their hands, saying, ‘Yield up your souls. This day shall you be awarded the punishment of disgrace, because of that which you spoke against Allah falsely and because you turned away from His Signs with disdain.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am
** [ [69:45]وَ لَوۡ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَیۡنَا بَعۡضَ الۡاَقَاوِیۡلِ ﴿ۙ۴۵﴾
And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46]لَاَخَذۡنَا مِنۡہُ بِالۡیَمِیۡنِ ﴿ۙ۴۶﴾
We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:47]ثُمَّ لَقَطَعۡنَا مِنۡہُ الۡوَتِیۡنَ ﴿۫ۖ۴۷﴾
And then surely We would have severed his life-artery,
[69:48]فَمَا مِنۡکُمۡ مِّنۡ اَحَدٍ عَنۡہُ حٰجِزِیۡنَ ﴿۴۸﴾
And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 69: Al-Haqqah
**
Deuteronomy Chapter 13:2,6
2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
Deuteronomy 13 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
 
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od19g6

Member
Thanks for one's reply, please.
Bahaullah has coined this term "Manifestations of God" and he played it too much, other Prophets/Messengers did rarely used it. I understand:
  1. G-d did not have any direct Converse with Bahaullah.*
  2. G-d did not appoint/choose Bahaullah as His Prophet/Messenger in direct Converse, and there is a penalty/punishment for one with whom G-d did not have Converse but one claim to be His Prophet/Messenger**.Therefore, Bahaullah, I understand, avoided it. Right, please?
  3. Bahaullah used the term "manifestation of G-d" , and as some Bahaullah's followers are given to understand Bahaullah claimed divinity behind this disguise for which there is no punishment in this world .G-d did not confer any divinity on Bahaullah, there is no direct Converse from G-d with Bahaullah in this connection. Right, please?
Regards
___________
*[[6:94]وَ مَنۡ اَظۡلَمُ مِمَّنِ افۡتَرٰی عَلَی اللّٰہِ کَذِبًا اَوۡ قَالَ اُوۡحِیَ اِلَیَّ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡحَ اِلَیۡہِ شَیۡءٌ وَّ مَنۡ قَالَ سَاُنۡزِلُ مِثۡلَ مَاۤ اَنۡزَلَ اللّٰہُ ؕ وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی اِذِ الظّٰلِمُوۡنَ فِیۡ غَمَرٰتِ الۡمَوۡتِ وَ الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ بَاسِطُوۡۤا اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ ۚ اَخۡرِجُوۡۤا اَنۡفُسَکُمۡ ؕ اَلۡیَوۡمَ تُجۡزَوۡنَ عَذَابَ الۡہُوۡنِ بِمَا کُنۡتُمۡ تَقُوۡلُوۡنَ عَلَی اللّٰہِ غَیۡرَ الۡحَقِّ وَ کُنۡتُمۡ عَنۡ اٰیٰتِہٖ تَسۡتَکۡبِرُوۡنَ ﴿۹۴﴾
And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says, ‘It has been revealed to me,’ while nothing has been revealed to him; and who says, ‘I will send down the like of that which Allah has sent down?’ And if thou couldst only see, when the wrongdoers are in the agonies of death, and the angels stretch forth their hands, saying, ‘Yield up your souls. This day shall you be awarded the punishment of disgrace, because of that which you spoke against Allah falsely and because you turned away from His Signs with disdain.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am
** [ [69:45]وَ لَوۡ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَیۡنَا بَعۡضَ الۡاَقَاوِیۡلِ ﴿ۙ۴۵﴾
And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46]لَاَخَذۡنَا مِنۡہُ بِالۡیَمِیۡنِ ﴿ۙ۴۶﴾
We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:47]ثُمَّ لَقَطَعۡنَا مِنۡہُ الۡوَتِیۡنَ ﴿۫ۖ۴۷﴾
And then surely We would have severed his life-artery,
[69:48]فَمَا مِنۡکُمۡ مِّنۡ اَحَدٍ عَنۡہُ حٰجِزِیۡنَ ﴿۴۸﴾
And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 69: Al-Haqqah
**
Deuteronomy Chapter 13:2,6
2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
Deuteronomy 13 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Hi paarsurrey.

What I wanted to show you came up, so now we can talk more.

You are saying all that because you don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God.

You keep coming back to converse directly with God, and I keep reminding you that God is beyond His creation even His Messengers and that God do not talk to human beings is a human voice. We can't take the holy Qur'an completely literally.

This is what I wanted to show you, scroll down to the Islamic prophecies: prophecy-fulfilled
 
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