An Interesting challenge

[Segev Moran]

Yes it is and I see it in this passage. Love is an attractive force, thus somehow the attractive aspect of Magnetisim will play a part in future space travel.

Love is a cryptic term to use.
Can you define what you mean (Or the scripture you offered) when you say love?

This passage, when I read it back in 1984 sparked this thought, I just wait for science to find it. Though It will need men to have a unity of thought before we find it;

To gain unity of thought, you must present evidence
I guess thats the reason you have a gazillion versions of god

We can do this Spiritually, thus materially it is also possible.

How do you know we can do this spiritually?
I think you are mixing imagination with reality.
The fact you can imagine or remember (in a most subjective way btw), doesn't mean it is real.

Come on science, hurry up, lets find our unity.

Unity has got nothing to do with science...
It has got anything to do with how humans decide what is true or not.
so the statement should be:

"Come on humans, hurry up, lets use science"

Regards Tony

Cheers

 

[Segev Moran]

You can,and I do have a background in animal and human anatomy when I took courses to be pre-med and worked as National Registry Paramedic in the 1970s



E=mC2

Lol...
Can you elaborate how it correlates?
What is the atom in this case?
What is the sun?
what is the heart of the atom?

 

[Segev Moran]

Do you think that a good way to start a conversation is by telling someone to "be open minded for a sec"?

If you are not an open minded person, than yes

Such as?

Viking navigation compasses,
Egyptian building tools,
Astronomical knowledge,
Mechanical devices that resemble,
light manipulations,
sound manipulation ETC.

Such as?

The number of starts in the universe for example. although it is not precise, it give an impressive estimation that is not too far from what we predict today.
The division of the brain to separate sections (this is discussed in much detailed) and the prediction details a further idea of different affects of other body parts on the overall functionality of the human body.
The reason for Kosher butchering is based on anatomical factors that required a greater anatomical understandings of the animal's body.
Predictions about the types of fish found on earth.
An elaboration of earth's land being one and divided into 7 separate parts (even when the accepted belief was of 5 continents)

I'd need more than your above comment to be convinced that string theory was discussed in ancient writings.

In a nut shell (As this is a very long and detailed subject), the Kbl speaks of different energy forms that were created before the universe emerged in its known material form.
It speaks of 10 dimensions (it is not called dimensions, but when studying their definitions it resembles what we call dimension) to our existence.

Strings theory presents an idea that is somewhat parallel.
It suggests that the quarks are actually made of "string" like force fields or energy particles that based on the vibrations and kinetic of it, defines the function of the material built from it.

A funny thing is that in order for string theory to match (mathematically), 10 dimensions must be taken into account.

(it is of course much more complex and deep than that, but it is a nice starting point)

Examples?

The big bang can be an example.
The creation process of the known universe is described in a way that is surprisingly resembling the big bang concept.
It speaks of one point of energy or force that was then spread into many less dense energy and slowly became more and more physical creating galaxies, start etc... including earth.

Another example can be DNA. It is explained that each part of the human body to its smallest scale, contains all the information about the human body itself.

I can provide more info if you wish.

I really think it is an interesting thing to examine, even for the sake of understanding the analysis those ancient people made regarding our reality.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I guess thats the reason you have a gazillion versions of god

Ha ha, no only One God.

Regards Tony

 

[Segev Moran]

Ha ha, no only One God.

Regards Tony

Which one is it?

 

[shunyadragon]

Lol...
Can you elaborate how it correlates?
What is the atom in this case?
What is the sun?
what is the heart of the atom?

the atom in this case is simple the atom. The heart of the atom is the nucleus. As in Einstein's formula E=mC2 the proportion of energy released when you split the atom is proportionally vast in the proportion of the Speed of Light squared. When humans detonate a nuclear weapon the atoms are split in a chain reaction releasing the vast energy from the nucleus radio active minerals, and BOOM!!!. The same thing happens in Nuclear Reactors to release huge amounts of heat in a controlled situation.

The sun in this citation represents the vast amount of energy released when the atoms are split, and this reaction is what powers our sun, and by the way the internal heat of the earth.

 

[Segev Moran]

the atom in this case is simple the atom. The heart of the atom is the nucleus. As in Einstein's formula E=mC2 the proportion of energy released when you split the atom is proportionally vast in the proportion of the Speed of Light squared. When humans detonate a nuclear weapon the atoms are split in a chain reaction releasing the vast energy from the nucleus radio active minerals, and BOOM!!!. The same thing happens in Nuclear Reactors to release huge amounts of heat in a controlled situation.

The sun in this citation represents the vast amount of energy released when the atoms are split, and this reaction is what powers our sun, and by the way the internal heat of the earth.

When was this written?
Did he use the actual word Atom?
Why is the Sun inside? (It doesn't sound like an explosion of energy).
What about the description of how the sun is formed? and why it explodes?

Where did you find a reference to this interpretation?

 

[shunyadragon]

If you are not an open minded person, than yes

Viking navigation compasses,
Egyptian building tools,
Astronomical knowledge,
Mechanical devices that resemble,
light manipulations,
sound manipulation ETC.

I see most of these simply products of human inventiveness, and some speculation beyond the evidence.

Concerning Egyptian building tools archaeological evidence, practical research in Egypt using the type of tools found have been found to relatively simple tools in the hands of vast numbers of skilled craftsman.

Astronomical knowledge is simply evolved through a long history going back to the Neolithic making astronomical observations. The earliest known 'writing' from the Neolithic is the recording of phases of the moon on bone, and stellar formations in stone carvings. This does not require advanced technology.

The claim of 'Mechanical devices that resemble light manipulations,' needs more explanation. At present the mechanical devices, such as sophisticated navigation instruments, only reflect the ingenious human inventiveness, and not anything beyond the technology of the time. The primitive batteries found in Egypt are not technologically remarkable.

The number of starts in the universe for example. although it is not precise, it give an impressive estimation that is not too far from what we predict today.

The infinite vastness of our physical existence in time, including the possibility of multiverses reflect direct references in Vedic (Hindu), and Baha'i scriptures at least. These scriptures and the Kabbalah can be inspiration for understanding the potential eternal nature of our physical existence, and the possibility of multiverses.

The division of the brain to separate sections (this is discussed in much detailed) and the prediction details a further idea of different affects of other body parts on the overall functionality of the human body.
The reason for Kosher butchering is based on anatomical factors that required a greater anatomical understandings of the animal's body.

I do not consider this remarkable in and of itself is not remarkable and be determined by simple primitive experiments in brain stimulation found in a number of ancient cultures that pioneered primitive brain surgery.

Predictions about the types of fish found on earth.

I believe this can be objectively determined by fisherman through the millennia,

Enough for now.

 

[shunyadragon]

When was this written?
Did he use the actual word Atom?
Why is the Sun inside? (It doesn't sound like an explosion of energy).
What about the description of how the sun is formed? and why it explodes?

Where did you find a reference to this interpretation?

Yes the word Atom was used. It was written in mid 1800's. The sun is symbolic of the amount of energy released, which I already explained. Sun inside? Not clear I did not say this. I did describe that this is the explanation of the energy from the sun and the internal heat of the earth. The sun is formed and continually explodes based on E=mC2. I believe the explanation I gave is detailed enough to understand the literal and symbolism involved.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Hmm,
What more do you need?

Materials, methods, and results. Here is what you described before:

"I can give you an example...
One of the statements in the Kbl is that the spoken word has an affect in a molecular level of the water.
It is explained that the sound wave produced (correctly) by a specific word causes a vibration that changes water in a specific manner."

How was this experiment carried out? What is the hypothesis and null hypothesis? What were the positive and negative controls?

Assuming sound causes vibrations, one can assume specific frequencies might be vibrant in a way that can affect the molecular structure of things. (we already know it causes the molecular to vibrate, but can it cause a change of structure?)

This statement can be true or not.

This statement is true of every sound that comes from the mouth of a human. You seemed to be hinting at a situation where a certain word, and only this word, produced a very specific change in water. Without knowing what that word is, what the specific change in water molecules is, and what the controls in the experiment were it is almost impossible to get a handle on the science of what you are talking about.

For examples of possible controls:

1. Did the effect change with the frequency of the speakers voice?
2. What other words were used to see if they had the same effect?
3. Did they change the volume and shape of the water container to see if the effect was due to the specific resonance of the container?

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

I don't know the answer.
Instead of researching on the web, i find it much more interesting to actually converse with someone i can shoot questions back when i receive an answer.

So can sound affect things in a more complex way then meets the eye?
If so, what are the possible affects based on what we know(ish) today?
As sound theoretically can break a vast range of materials, might there be a "breaking point" for liquids? where molecules are so strongly vibrate that their structure alters or modified?

What you are describing is the transfer of energy from air to solids/liquids. It is similar to ocean waves crashing on a beach. I'm not sure how this all relates to words from the Kbl somehow producing specific changes in water molecules.

 

[Segev Moran]

I think you are missing my point here.
I do not claim they had superior knowledge, or alien technologies (I am not an "ancient alienist" or whatever term they have for them selves)

I simply think that we might miss a lot if we disregard things for not being describes ion our current days terms.

I do not say that one religion is true over another. i think they are all wrong.

there is however great wisdom in many of them. kbl is the only one so far i encountered that details everything to point 1.
I am not saying other religions don't present wise and great descriptions, i just say they are mostly spiritual in nature.

 

[Segev Moran]

Yes the word Atom was used. It was written in mid 1800's. The sun is symbolic of the amount of energy released, which I already explained. Sun inside? Not clear I did not say this. I did describe that this is the explanation of the energy from the sun and the internal heat of the earth. The sun is formed and continually explodes based on E=mC2. I believe the explanation I gave is detailed enough to understand the literal and symbolism involved.

Okey.
This is how i approach things when i study Kbl.
Lets try and do the same with the verse you presented:

"Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun."

I would start with defining each word based on what the author of the verse meant to say (I need you to fill in the blanks please

Split:
Atom: The literal concept of an atom as we know today (? or did it mean the smallest building block of material as was thought at the time)
Heart:
Within it: inside? as contained within?
Find:
Sun:

Now, for each word, i would find the source that explains why it is defined as it is

Split:
Atom: source is external to the scripture and describes a scientific concept of atoms.
Heart:
Within it:
Find:

Now i would see if there is any description that describes something we haven't discovered yet.

 

[Segev Moran]

Materials, methods, and results. Here is what you described before:

"I can give you an example...
One of the statements in the Kbl is that the spoken word has an affect in a molecular level of the water.
It is explained that the sound wave produced (correctly) by a specific word causes a vibration that changes water in a specific manner."

How was this experiment carried out? What is the hypothesis and null hypothesis? What were the positive and negative controls?

It wasn't in a serious manner, thus rendering it not valid.

This statement is true of every sound that comes from the mouth of a human. You seemed to be hinting at a situation where a certain word, and only this word, produced a very specific change in water.

I am not hinting. I am asking if it is even possible based on what we know today.

Without knowing what that word is, what the specific change in water molecules is, and what the controls in the experiment were it is almost impossible to get a handle on the science of what you are talking about.

It is not yet relevant which word, I want to understand first if it is even possible as an idea.
If so, there are many specific words that are claimed to have affects on the water.

One of the things in the Tora is called "Teamim".
These are symbols and marks that tell the reader the pitch, length, volume and things like that the the letter should be spoken at.

There are specific blessings spoken about water so there is a list of words that one can start examining.

For examples of possible controls:

1. Did the effect change with the frequency of the speakers voice?
2. What other words were used to see if they had the same effect?
3. Did they change the volume and shape of the water container to see if the effect was due to the specific resonance of the container?

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

I Didn't make any experiment, nor anyone did a serious valid experiment to test this idea.
That's exactly what interests me.

What you are describing is the transfer of energy from air to solids/liquids. It is similar to ocean waves crashing on a beach. I'm not sure how this all relates to words from the Kbl somehow producing specific changes in water molecules.

Exactly,
I am not sure also,
So i am trying to figure out if it is even possible, and if so, what would be the best way to examine this.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okey.
This is how i approach things when i study Kbl.
Lets try and do the same with the verse you presented:

"Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun."

I would start with defining each word based on what the author of the verse meant to say (I need you to fill in the blanks please

Split:
Atom: The literal concept of an atom as we know today (? or did it mean the smallest building block of material as was thought at the time)

The atom at the time you define was a Greek concept that was only beginning to be accepted by science in the mid 1800's.

Heart:
Within it: inside? as contained within?

Up until the 20th century the atom was considered indivisible, and the nucleus as the center was not discovered. in 1909.

Find:Sun:

Symbolic of the vast amount of energy (symbolic of sun) released when you split the atom.

Now, for each word, i would find the source that explains why it is defined as it is

Split: Heart: Within it:

Splitting the atom and releasing vast amounts of energy the nucleus was not known until after Einstein proposal E=mC2.

Now i would see if there is any description that describes something we haven't discovered yet.

Described previously and specifically above.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I am not hinting. I am asking if it is even possible based on what we know today.

In order to get that answer you are going to have to be a bit more specific.

If so, there are many specific words that are claimed to have affects on the water.

What are these words, and what affect are they said to have?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Love is a cryptic term to use.
Can you define what you mean (Or the scripture you offered) when you say love?

Love is the animation Force of life and by which all things are set in motion.

"Love gives life to the lifeless. Love lights a flame in the heart that is cold. Love brings hope to the hopeless and gladdens the hearts of the sorrowful. In the world of existence there is indeed no greater power than the power of love." Abdul'baha

Regards Tony

 

[Segev Moran]

The atom at the time you define was a Greek concept that was only beginning to be accepted by science in the mid 1800's.

Ok.
So where did he come up with the term? was he one of the few that accepted the idea of atoms?

As for the rest, you just explained to me what each word means based on science.
that is not what i asked for.
I asked for the authors definition.
Why did he use the word sun?
Why did he say heart? why not core?
What is the connection to the living heart? are they similar in structure according to the author?

 

[Segev Moran]

In order to get that answer you are going to have to be a bit more specific.

Is there a possibility that in some manner, sound can affect water molecules in a way that it will cause a permanent change of structure?

What are these words, and what affect are they said to have?

The claim is that they become more effective to the body.
It would be not effective telling you the word as what counts is the proper pronouniation
(there are several possible)

 

[Segev Moran]

Love is the animation Force of life and by which all things are set in motion.

What about non living things?

"Love gives life to the lifeless. Love lights a flame in the heart that is cold. Love brings hope to the hopeless and gladdens the hearts of the sorrowful. In the world of existence there is indeed no greater power than the power of love." Abdul'baha

Yes. But what is love based on Abdul'baha?
I understand what he claims to be its outcome, but not what it is.
If love give life, what takes them?
hate?
so hate and love are entities?

Regards Tony

cheers

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ok.
So where did he come up with the term? was he one of the few that accepted the idea of atoms?

As for the rest, you just explained to me what each word means based on science.
that is not what i asked for.
I asked for the authors definition.
Why did he use the word sun?
Why did he say heart? why not core?
What is the connection to the living heart? are they similar in structure according to the author?

I will give one thought on this but leave shunyadragon to add his knowledge of the sciences, to which I have little.

the purpose of a Messenger of God is to change the Hearts of the People in the age they come to assist them to find a Unity of thought and a fruitful way of life.

In this process the Words uttered by the Messenger are the animating force of light and life, from these Words all Science becomes possible. Thus a Messenger in achieving this aim will enshrine within those Words great material truths, that can be found only when we look for them.

You are aware of the persecution a Messenger faces when they deliver a Message, the records show this happens in every age. This happens without giving direct scientific knowledge to which people are not ready to grasp.

So here is an example of this, the Son of Baha'u'llah talking to The Japanese Ambassador to a European capital (Viscount Arakawa—Madrid ) in 1912.

"....Speaking of religion and science, the two great wings with which the bird of human kind is able to soar, He said: “Scientific discoveries have increased material civilization. There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.” Bahá'í Reference Library - Japan Will Turn Ablaze!, Pages 51-53

Thus what is the first thing man saw when they split the first Atom, would it not be the light like that of the Sun, to which would blind you if you looked at it! So they are not there to tell us about the Make up of the atom and how to split it, but to tell us how to use all we find with wisdom based in the love of God and Gods Laws.

The Koran contains many verses that hint to future findings in Science. It is just another proof we are given that the Messengers are here for our benefit and for us to consider in all justice what they have offered.

Regards Tony