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An Interesting challenge

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Career Environmental/Hydrology Geologist and Soil Scientist with a heavy background in biology, chemistry, genetics and evolution.
So cool :)
Can I ask some biology related questions?
Specifically related to the nerves, veins, arteries and such in our body?
I find insight into science in the different religions like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and the Baha'i Faith.
Baha'i example: THE SEVEN VALLEYS Baha'u'llah; "Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun."
Can you explain this verse please in a scientific manner? meaning what it describes in your POV?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I'm not the person you are requesting but this paragraph was intriguing. Isn't eliminating theist scientists automatically makes you less objective?
I didn't eliminate :)
I just don't want people to be offended, i encountered many times in people taking things too personally when it comes to religion.
I am pretty sure some people find my post offensive when i stated Kbl is the most complex doctoring i have encountered and studied (not in a religious POV).

As for objectivity, i think that a theist cannot be objective to questioning things that are related to god.
On the other hand, and as i mentioned, if a theist can "put aside" his religion and connect to the scientific POV of our reality, it would many times more beneficial to this thread than any other.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
It will be difficult for a scientist to participate in a scientific discussion when all they have to work with is "this spoken word affects water in some particular way".
Hmm,
What more do you need?

Assuming sound causes vibrations, one can assume specific frequencies might be vibrant in a way that can affect the molecular structure of things. (we already know it causes the molecular to vibrate, but can it cause a change of structure?)

This statement can be true or not.

I don't know the answer.
Instead of researching on the web, i find it much more interesting to actually converse with someone i can shoot questions back when i receive an answer.

So can sound affect things in a more complex way then meets the eye?
If so, what are the possible affects based on what we know(ish) today?
As sound theoretically can break a vast range of materials, might there be a "breaking point" for liquids? where molecules are so strongly vibrate that their structure alters or modified?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can you give an example of something that can be described in a scientific manner?

I will look at your post tonight, I am just off to work and offer this reply on one aspect of your questions.

The son of Baha'u'llah, Abdulbaha wrote the 'Tablet of the Universe'. This tablet explains in detail never before given as to how creation came into being.

The Tablet starts by explaining how the Spiritual world's came into existence and how all was set in order. We are told that the material world is a reflection of the Spiritual worlds and that from this explanation, we can also determine how the material creations came into being and how it is all well ordered.

This Tablet (Late 1800's, early.1900's) quotes and ancient tradition, a tradition that shows people in the past understood the immemsity of creation and space;

"......Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils...."

Consider all we have yet found is but part of One Lamp of the 100,000,000 lamps. I also like to consider as we spend time looking into space We are yet to spend as much of our time with the ability to look much much smaller as well

This is a provisional translation and as such it may change a little when it is officially translated in the future - Tablet of the Universe

It is worth the time to study, I am sure it will contain keys that will unlock our abilities to travel through space and time.

How do you know that

I accept who Baha'u'llah is and what He has written is a guide and path for humanity to all Knowledge

Regards Tony
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
You want atheists to find scientific discoveries based on the Kabbalah? I must have misunderstood.
I think you did misunderstand.

look at it this way (please be open minded for a sec)

we assume that past times, civilizations had knowledge.
at times we discover very surprising things that we believed weren't known at the more ancient times.

When you study the Kbl in a way that is non spiritual (meaning not in order to gain spiritual benefits), there are many surprising estimations and predictions that many times match accepted theories.
What is more intriguing, is that at times you might find a description that hints of possible ideas regarding such theories.
String theory can be thought of such a theory, that presents some parallels that are interesting to study.
(not to prove god, not to prove myth, not to prove Kbl)
People who believe god and spiritual doctrines don't require evidence like i do.
i cannot prove something that is undefined.
Kbl defines many things (not god of course :)) in a way that you can describe them with current scientific terms.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I didn't eliminate :)
I just don't want people to be offended, i encountered many times in people taking things too personally when it comes to religion.
I am pretty sure some people find my post offensive when i stated Kbl is the most complex doctoring i have encountered and studied (not in a religious POV).

As for objectivity, i think that a theist cannot be objective to questioning things that are related to god.
On the other hand, and as i mentioned, if a theist can "put aside" his religion and connect to the scientific POV of our reality, it would many times more beneficial to this thread than any other.
OK... seems odd... it sounds like atheists can't be objective if God is in it. But OK. just my POV
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Spoken words do not change water. Please cite a scientific article for your claim.
You are presuming words as spoken by humans. According to Torah God effected creation by speaking it into existence. God’s words and human words are vastly different. God can certainly change water, or all of creation, through His words.
 
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Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
@Segev Moran Re:OP

When I was into this stuff, I found this book an interesting read. It may be of interest to you.

Coincidences in the Bible and in Biblical Hebrew by Haim Shore
An interesting look at the Hebrew language by a secular(?) professor of statistics.
I should add that this is not about gematria or Bible-codes.

The book is online for free at
https://haimshore.files.wordpress.c...the-bible-and-in-biblical-hebrew_feb-2014.pdf

Thanks for the reference :) I will surely read it :)
I am familiar with some of his ideas, his definition of science however is somewhat misleading.
He describes randomness and coincidences as the way scientific theories are determined as probable.
It is far from the truth.

Theseus at times are made do to random evidence, but we do not accept them as theories based on randomness.
Unless a theory can predict the behavior of its subject, it will not be considered a valid theory.

Strings theory for example, is not a validated theory (yet?)
It is a mathematical calculation that gives a prediction we yet have the ability to measure.

You cannot present a scientific thesis based on random measurements.

He is correct though that science is never absolute.

Putting that aside, it is indeed something i find very interesting. the entire concept of numerical calculations and patterns that are related to Kbl.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
OP: No offense but what you are proposing is not something you are yet capable of. Kabbalah is a highly advanced branch of Jewish mysticism. It can’t be understood without first mastering other branches of Judaism such as Hassidism and Mussar. It is also all but impossible to be self taught but requires learning from a rabbinic master. Furthermore unless you have mastered the Hebrew language you won’t even have the most basic skills needed to do what you propose. Add to this the needed scientific expertise and your proposal becomes untenable and impractical on this forum. Coordinating those here with the required backgrounds (assuming you could find them on this forum which you most probably could not) and then designing your project isn’t going to work. But even if we assume you can do all of these things and so much more we haven’t even mentioned yet, the result would be extremely esoteric and unintelligible to all but a rare few.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Atheists cant be objective?
What do you mean?
How can i be objective to something subjective?


LOL... Let me rephrase (so sorry) -- by eliminating scientists that are theists -- how can any determination be obective? You have eliminated a whole group of people with a different POV
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I will look at your post tonight, I am just off to work and offer this reply on one aspect of your questions.
The son of Baha'u'llah, Abdulbaha wrote the 'Tablet of the Universe'. This tablet explains in detail never before given as to how creation came into being.
I will check this out. would appreciate an example though.
We are told that the material world is a reflection of the Spiritual worlds
same as many religions (Judaism one of them)
It is worth the time to study, I am sure it will contain keys that will unlock our abilities to travel through space and time.
Wow, that's a bold claim.
I accept who Baha'u'llah is and what He has written is a guide and path for humanity to all Knowledge
Acceptance doesn't explain how you know :)
It just means you assume it is so. how come the certainty?
Regards Tony
Cheers
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
OP: No offense but what you are proposing is not something you are yet capable of.
how do you know what i am capable of?
Kabbalah is a highly advanced branch of Jewish mysticism. It can’t be understood without first mastering other branches of Judaism such as Hassidism and Mussar.
I disagree.
The religious part indeed cannot be understood as the Kbl presents many traditions that are sourced on scriptures.
I have no interest in religious concepts.
It is also all but impossible to be self taught but requires learning from a rabbinic master.
I bet that people who say that are the rabbinic masters ;)
Have you ever tried learning it?
Or you fear you will lose your mind? (;))
Furthermore unless you have mastered the Hebrew language you won’t even have the most basic skills needed to do what you propose.
I consider myself pretty good with the Hebrew language.
Add to this the needed scientific expertise
That's why i invite scientists ;)
and your proposal becomes untenable and impractical on this forum.
I think you too easily underestimate people here :)
Coordinating those here with the required backgrounds (assuming you could find them on this forum which you most probably could not) and then designing your project isn’t going to work.
It actually sounds like you got it all planned :)
But even if we assume you can do all of these things and so much more we haven’t even mentioned yet, the result would be extremely esoteric and unintelligible to all but a rare few.
Lol. how come?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
LOL... Let me rephrase (so sorry) -- by eliminating scientists that are theists -- how can any determination be obective? You have eliminated a whole group of people with a different POV
Again, unless one doesn't get offended by this.
I WOULD LOVE HAVING A THEIST SCIENTIST TAKE PART OF THIS :) :)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow, that's a bold claim.

Yes it is and I see it in this passage. Love is an attractive force, thus somehow the attractive aspect of Magnetisim will play a part in future space travel.

This passage, when I read it back in 1984 sparked this thought, I just wait for science to find it. Though It will need men to have a unity of thought before we find it;

"...O servant of Bahá! Be self-sacrificing in the path of God, and wing thy flight unto the heavens of the love of the Abhá Beauty, for any movement animated by love moveth from the periphery to the centre, from space to the Day-Star of the universe. Perchance thou deemest this to be difficult, but I tell thee that such cannot be the case, for when the motivating and guiding power is the divine force of magnetism it is possible, by its aid, to traverse time and space easily and swiftly. Glory be upon the people of Bahá."

We can do this Spiritually, thus materially it is also possible.

Come on science, hurry up, lets find our unity.

Regards Tony
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So cool :)
Can I ask some biology related questions?
Specifically related to the nerves, veins, arteries and such in our body?

You can,and I do have a background in animal and human anatomy when I took courses to be pre-med and worked as National Registry Paramedic in the 1970s

Can you explain this verse please in a scientific manner? meaning what it describes in your POV?

E=mC2
 

ecco

Veteran Member
(please be open minded for a sec)
Do you think that a good way to start a conversation is by telling someone to "be open minded for a sec"?

we assume that past times, civilizations had knowledge.
at times we discover very surprising things that we believed weren't known at the more ancient times.
Such as?

When you study the Kbl in a way that is non spiritual (meaning not in order to gain spiritual benefits), there are many surprising estimations and predictions that many times match accepted theories.
Such as?

What is more intriguing, is that at times you might find a description that hints of possible ideas regarding such theories.
String theory can be thought of such a theory, that presents some parallels that are interesting to study.
I'd need more than your above comment to be convinced that string theory was discussed in ancient writings.

Kbl defines many things (not god of course :)) in a way that you can describe them with current scientific terms.
Examples?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
LOL... Let me rephrase (so sorry) -- by eliminating scientists that are theists -- how can any determination be obective? You have eliminated a whole group of people with a different POV
I do not believe he excluded Theist scientists. I am a Theist scientist.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
@Segev Moran Re:OP

When I was into this stuff, I found this book an interesting read. It may be of interest to you.

Coincidences in the Bible and in Biblical Hebrew by Haim Shore
An interesting look at the Hebrew language by a secular(?) professor of statistics.
I should add that this is not about gematria or Bible-codes.

The book is online for free at
https://haimshore.files.wordpress.c...the-bible-and-in-biblical-hebrew_feb-2014.pdf
After reading it some more, i must say it an interesting idea but it is not true or validated.
The scale he uses to measure the diameters and surface of the planets are too broad (hundreds of thousands of units can be off and the graphs will still seem parallel)
He only chose specific words that match his findings. there is no genuine pattern here (For example, i would assume that the word Yom (day) will also be correlated to other used words that represent a day in the bible.

There are many nice coincidences, but it seems this is all they are.

There is more room to investigate his claims in a more monitored and precise manner.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will check this out. would appreciate an example though.

It may be best that you read this article "One Physicist’s first Look at Abdu’l-Baha’s Tablet of the Universe" -

One Physicist’s first Look at Abdu’l-Baha’s Tablet of the Universe

It is by Vahid Houston Ranjbar, who says "I am a research physicist working on beam and spin dynamics. I like to write about connections between science and religion." It is noted as a 10 minute read;

This is one quote on this selection from the Tablet:

".....For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds...."

"..The third sentence, although seemingly trivial, when carefully parsed actually might contain some very profound insights. He relates that the universal attractive force is derived “ from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities.” One might understand firm ties, correspondence and affinity between realities to represent the nature of quantum entanglement. At its heart quantum entanglement ensures a correlation or correspondence between entangled particles over arbitrary distances. On this point I would be very curious to have experts in the original language and culture weigh in. The question is, how would an individual from Persia in the 19th and early 20th century describe entanglement with the language at his disposal? Furthermore, how would he go about explaining this to an audience of individuals scientifically illiterate by the standards of today?..."

Regards Tony

 
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