An Interesting challenge

[Segev Moran]

Some years ago I participated in a rather comprehensive on line seminar on the Kabballah, and have a great appreciation of the work. I so not share your enthusiasm concerning its relationship to science, but I am willing to follow and learn.

What is your strongest scientific purview?
And i will try and give an example that matches.

 

[Segev Moran]

This is an area you noted above that you do not want to go, but it is good to know anyway.

I agree.. just don't want to make this post about that.

Universal Mind is the

"......station of primal reason which is known as the Prophet and the Most Great Pillar. Here reason signifieth the divine, universal mind, whose sovereignty enlighteneth all created things—nor doth it refer to every feeble brain; for it is as the wise Saná’í hath written:

can you please describe it without using spiritual concepts? (i.e divinity, prophecy and such)

How can feeble reason encompass the Qur’án,

can you please describe what is a feeble reason and how it is measured?

Or the spider snare a phoenix in his web?

Wouldst thou that the mind should not entrap thee?
Teach it the science of the love of God!" (Baha'u'llah Seven Valleys and Four Valleys.)

Science should never teach the love of God, this will make it a religion (unless you think science will prove god? (really hope you don't))

Basically it is using Faith to tap into what is the cause of creation and when we do this in unity, all will be possible.

Lets agree to disagree

There are quotes on this potential of the unity in mind, if you are interested.

Thanks I can find them though

Regards Tony

Thanks back at you [/QUOTE]

 

[Segev Moran]

Spoken words do not change water. Please cite a scientific article for your claim.[/QUOTE]
Lol.. indeed they are not

 

[sealchan]

What kind of insights for example?

That Abram/Abraham's experience of God has many of the same qualities as people today (including myself) who have had the experience of having a dream or vision of God.

That the story of Jacob and Esau has numerous similarities with the story of the Mahabharata.

That the above indicates that real spiritual experience and existing epic and mythic stories were used by literary artists 2000 years ago to create the narrative we call Genesis today. That we can look to our dreams for proof of the psychological nature of spiritual experience and see that these literary artists did the same. And most importantly, that all of this speaks to a common truth in a sort of imaginal, virtual realm of human experience that provides us with a perspective for understanding our potential for good and evil and how to promote the former over the later whenever possible.

Good stuff...but if you are not interested...

 

[Segev Moran]

Wouldn't every word cause water to vibrate in a specific manner different from other words? Wouldn't this vibration also be dependent on the frequency of the speakers voice?

Not according to what is described.
But there is a measurable way to test such things i assume.
That's one of what interests me.
some descriptions describe an outcome that is measurable these days. wouldn't you say it will be very interesting to examine such things?
so for this question as an example, i would really love to hear from a physicists if there is any way based on our current knowledge of reality that such thing can happen.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

can you please describe it without using spiritual concepts? (i.e divinity, prophecy and such)

Science should never teach the love of God, this will make it a religion (unless you think science will prove god? (really hope you don't))

Both these questions tie into each other. I am happy to say, I will confirm what you hoped would not be so

Faith and Science will both take us to the same source, there is no way out of this. Call it God or a Big Bang, life is evolving from the original potential.

The Universal Mind, Holy Spirit, Primal Will is the source of all potential and all Faith and All Science can only tap into that Potential.

Everything we can Fathom or find in the future or bring from the unknown to the known, is already in this Universal Mind. The Universal Mind goes beyond our capacity to know.

can you please describe what is a feeble reason and how it is measured?

Our use of Mind, without the aid of Universal Mind. Also our distortion of Universal Mind.

Lets agree to disagree

Always happy to agree with this. You know we will always wish you well in your search for all Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Not according to what is described.
But there is a measurable way to test such things i assume.

Do you have a reference to the actual descriptions and tests? We need to see the science if we are going to discuss it.

 

[Segev Moran]

That Abram/Abraham's experience of God has many of the same qualities as people today
(including myself) who have had the experience of having a dream or vision of God.

How do you know it was Gods?

That the story of Jacob and Esau has numerous similarities with the story of the Mahabharata.

All religious writings have similarities with other religions.

That the above indicates that real spiritual experience

I have yet to encounter someone that had a real spiritual experience that was not subjective.
and subjective issues are irrelevant to a scientific approach.

When i say spiritual,
and existing epic and mythic stories were used by literary artists 2000 years ago to create the narrative we call Genesis today. That we can look to our dreams

i find the biblical literal story very disturbing.
it presents a very bad era of violence and abusive behavior.
(starting at the "6th" day)

for proof of the psychological nature of spiritual experience
and see that these literary artists did the same.
if you could prove spirituality, it will not be spirituality.

I couldn't care less about proving the spiritual
Eventually a spiritual realm either exist or not.
If it does and doesn't affect my reality, great. don't care
If it does and does affect my reality, i could have measure it thus rendering it not spiritual.
If it doesn't exist, nothing really changed from my POV.
I am not looking for proving the Kbl...
It is obviously not possible.

And most importantly, that all of this speaks to a common truth

Disagree.
It is common, not sure about the truth part

in a sort of imaginal,

Thus not truth?
I think common subjective truth will be a better phrase?

virtual realm of human experience that provides us with a perspective for understanding our potential for good and evil

I really really really hope that is not what leads us to decide what is good and bad.
those stories are far from being a representation of goodness or kindness.
and how to promote the former over the later whenever possible.

Good stuff...but if you are not interested...

Indeed not interested
But thanks

 

[Segev Moran]

Faith and Science will both take us to the same source, there is no way out of this. Call it God or a Big Bang, life is evolving from the original potential.

I really disagree here.
how does the concept of big bang relates to having a deity?

The Universal Mind, Holy Spirit, Primal Will is the source of all potential and all Faith and All Science can only tap into that Potential.

Same can be said on any religion.

Everything we can Fathom or find in the future or bring from the unknown to the known, is already in this Universal Mind.

Or mega computer

The Universal Mind goes beyond our capacity to know.

How do you know?

Always happy to agree with this. You know we will always wish you well in your search for all Truth.

Regards Tony

There is no such thing as "all Truth", but thanks

 

[Segev Moran]

Do you have a reference to the actual descriptions and tests? We need to see the science if we are going to discuss it.

Nope

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I really disagree here.
how does the concept of big bang relates to having a deity?

Creation had a source. Call it what and how you wish to.

I have found the source was God, no doubt for me.

Same can be said on any religion

That is the Message given by Baha'u'llah. All Faith is from the same source. It is Baha'u'llah that has given the teaching that Science and Religion are both given to source what is Truth.

Or mega computer

The Computer required to be created and to then be programed.

It is a refelction of our brain, to which was created and needs the right program to give the right answer.

Hackers have done a good job with this.

How do you know

If what Baha'u'llah has offered is False, then nothing since time began is right. All science can find will onl make the Message given by Baha'u'llah more apparent.

We know that creation has no limits, that the worlds are beyond calculation, that all have creatures, that some have creatures that have the ability to know and love God as we can and that one day we will traverse Time and Space easily and swiftly. Magnetism will be the source of this capacity.

And, oh so much more.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

What is your strongest scientific purview?

Career Environmental/Hydrology Geologist and Soil Scientist with a heavy background in biology, chemistry, genetics and evolution.

I find insight into science in the different religions like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'i example: THE SEVEN VALLEYS Baha'u'llah; "Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun."

 

[Kenny]

Hi All,'t know.
There is too much to learn and not much time

So my challenge is finding a group of people with a vast knowledge of sciences (preferably atheists [not because i have something against theist scientists, rather because i think someone who treats god only as an idea will be more objective in this case] although if one is open minded and will not be offended of things that might be said, i think it will be a great value) that are willing to take a dive to a very interesting idea of trying and finding a scientific discoveries BASED on the Kabbalah rather then disregarding it as a myth or just another religion.

I

Cheers

I'm not the person you are requesting but this paragraph was intriguing. Isn't eliminating theist scientists automatically makes you less objective?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Nope

It will be difficult for a scientist to participate in a scientific discussion when all they have to work with is "this spoken word affects water in some particular way".

 

[shunyadragon]

It will be difficult for a scientist to participate in a scientific discussion when all they have to work with is "this spoken word affects water in some particular way".

This is not science. IT is foolish bogus 'arguing from ignorance,' to justify a religious agenda.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

This is not science.

It could be, but it isn't science as of now. If we had a specific and well designed methodology as well as the data from the experiment we could at least assess what type of conclusions we could begin to draw, or what types of hypotheses could be tested with the data. As of now, "when you say something it causes water to do this thing" falls quite short of what we would call science.

 

[shunyadragon]

It could be, but it isn't science as of now. If we had a specific and well designed methodology as well as the data from the experiment we could at least assess what type of conclusions we could begin to draw, or what types of hypotheses could be tested with the data. As of now, "when you say something it causes water to do this thing" falls quite short of what we would call science.

We have a specific methodology in science that works, because airplanes fly, computers work, and medicine is advancing cures for disease. It is Methodological Naturalism.

Again, It is foolish bogus 'arguing from ignorance,' to justify a religious agenda.

 

[ecco]

... trying and finding a scientific discoveries BASED on the Kabbalah...

You want atheists to find scientific discoveries based on the Kabbalah? I must have misunderstood.

 

[Jedster]

@Segev Moran Re:OP

When I was into this stuff, I found this book an interesting read. It may be of interest to you.

Coincidences in the Bible and in Biblical Hebrew by Haim Shore
An interesting look at the Hebrew language by a secular(?) professor of statistics.
I should add that this is not about gematria or Bible-codes.

The book is online for free at
https://haimshore.files.wordpress.c...the-bible-and-in-biblical-hebrew_feb-2014.pdf

 

[Segev Moran]

Creation had a source. Call it what and how you wish to.

I call it unknown

I have found the source was God, no doubt for me.

It is good to hear

That is the Message given by Baha'u'llah. All Faith is from the same source.

Can you explain?
I don't wish to learn about the terms and concepts of things, rather have an understanding of what they represent.

It is Baha'u'llah that has given the teaching that Science and Religion are both given to source what is Truth.

How did it give it?
What was the process of the creation of those gitfs?
and please, do not answer in more cryptic terms, rather try and explain it in a more scientific terms.

The Computer required to be created and to then be programed.

If you assume we are a simulation

It is a refelction of our brain, to which was created and needs the right program to give the right answer.

Lost me here

Hackers have done a good job with this.

If what Baha'u'llah has offered is False, then nothing since time began is right.

So how do you know that it is certain that we do not live in a false universe?
Assuming that nothing since time began is right, we treat the false as the right, we have no ability to know if we do right or wrong based on your belief?

All science can find will onl make the Message given by Baha'u'llah more apparent.

Great That's exactly what i am looking for )
Can you give an example of something that can be described in a scientific manner?

We know that creation has no limits

How do you know that?

that the worlds are beyond calculation, that all have creatures, that some have creatures that have the ability to know and love God as we can and that one day we will traverse Time and Space easily and swiftly. Magnetism will be the source of this capacity.

Do you think alien civilization will worship the same god as humans? and if so which one will that be?

And, oh so much more.

Regards Tony

It does sound very detailed, but not in a way i understand.
Regards 2u2