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Featured An Interesting challenge

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Segev Moran, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    Hi All,

    I was a very active user of these forums.
    I have taken some time (A few month) to do some studying.
    I've been studying quite a lot and still am.

    I have many reasons to assume god (Any of them) doesn't exist. Actually.. the correct statement will be I have very little reasons to believe god exists.

    But as an atheist from the one hand, and a very curious person from the other, i invest many many hours studying and "investigating" many religious ideas and concepts.

    I am a jew, and grew up in a Jewish way of life. Not a religious jew, but Jewish by birth.
    I study (in the past and present) the Jewish religion in a very deep and detailed manner.
    I still have a long way to go and there are literally millions of pages of information I've yet to learn regarding the Jewish belief.

    Undoubted, the most complex and elaborated religious "theory" I've ever encountered is the oral Tora and especially Kabbalah.

    It is one of the most in depth analysis of EVERY aspect related to our reality ranging from the creation of the universe and to the structure and behavior of living beings.

    Although still an atheist, I honestly find the Kabbalah to be an amazingly (in the true sense of the word) complex, deep and detailed view on life as we know from the aspect of materialistic and non materialistic POV.

    The most "WOW"ing thing about it as far as i am concerned, is that once you learn the Kabbalah in depth, the similarities between the most recent scientific discoveries and the ideas of the Kabbalah are far more common than you might think.

    There are many things that are in contradiction (although after doing some more deep research I find them to be "solved").

    I have a very logical mind. I am a very skeptic in the way i respond to things.

    Now.. before you jump ahead and ask me ... Well.. if it is so amazing, Isn't it a proof of God? the short answer is no.. far from it!

    I will not go into why, as this might be a very very long post ( already is.. i know ;) ).

    So what is the challenge?

    well, Although i have a broad scientific knowledge, there are many things i don't know.
    There is too much to learn and not much time ;)

    So my challenge is finding a group of people with a vast knowledge of sciences (preferably atheists [not because i have something against theist scientists, rather because i think someone who treats god only as an idea will be more objective in this case] although if one is open minded and will not be offended of things that might be said, i think it will be a great value) that are willing to take a dive to a very interesting idea of trying and finding a scientific discoveries BASED on the Kabbalah rather then disregarding it as a myth or just another religion.

    If in any way I've caused anyone to be offended from my statement that Kabbalah is the most complex and detailed religious doctrine, please accept my apology. this statement is of course based on my own knowledge and what i have come across so far in my short life :)

    Just as an example for the complexity of the Kabbalah, the letter "Alef" (The first [and last] letter of the Hebrew Kabbalah language) it self in the kabbalah can easily fill a 100 pages book of explanations.

    really hop[e to find some cooperation as this subject can be a very educating and intriguing thing.

    Cheers :)
     
    #1 Segev Moran, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I just want to clarify that the Oral Torah is not Kabbalah. Kabbalah is one of the parts of the Oral Torah. The Talmud and Midrash are also parts.
     
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  3. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    The biggest hurdle you are going to have is confirmation bias. Once a scientific theory of fact is known it is all too easy to reinterpret scriptures as confirming those facts and theories. What you need is a way to objectively determine exactly what the Tora is predicting as it relates to science, and I just don't see how that can be accomplished.

    I think it would be fair to point out that you probably haven't done the same in-depth analysis of the Koran or the Hindu Vedas. There's nothing wrong with that, but surely you can see how your statement could be lacking. I am sure that there are Buddhist teachings and manuscripts that could also qualify for this type of analysis.
     
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  4. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    True.
    It is the deeper part of the oral tora.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You demonstrate a remarkably embarrassing ignorance of Judaism.
    If this is the result of you "studying quite a lot," I would consider some different approach -- such as, perhaps, reading chicken entrails.
     
  6. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    Disagreed.
    This is true to spiritual scriptures with an exception of Kbl(Kabbalah).
    I am not saying that Kbl is not spiritual, rather that the Kbl includes a more "scientific" approach (the double quotes are not to ridicule anything. it is simply to prevent mistakenly thinking that i mean scientific theory).
    I will assume you haven't studied much Kbl, is it a true assumption?
    That is true, but not for the reason you would think.
    I know ;)
    Although it is not
    I searched many, none of them can be put to the test of reality.
    Many of the Kbl suggestions, ideas and outcomes, can be tested and studied in a scientific manner.
    Please note i do not speak of things like healing, good and bad energies, effects of spiritual beings and such.
    The spiritual world is a psychological experiment. this is not what interests me in this challenge.
     
  7. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Hmm, one would think that you are also going to need people who read and have a very good grasp on Hebrew. More specifically, you will need people with a firm grasp on rabbinical thought. Essentially you need highly intellectual, classically taught Jews who are now atheists.


    On a side note, how accessible do you think kabbalah is? Any line of thinking that you trace or challenge is just as likely to be a "mistaken" interpretation. That is the consequence of dealing with esotericism. This leads us to the question: what is the point?
     
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I was studying some of those the other day. I made a prediction from them and it came true . . .

    We had chicken for dinner, just as the entrails told me.

    I am totally ignorant of the Kabbalah, but it appears that an earlier poster hit the nail on the head. Finding "science" in the Kabbalah is probably the same as a Muslim finding "science" in the Koran. Or a Christian finding it in the Bible. It is mere reinterpretation after the fact.

    The true test of a concept is if it can make a prediction or be used to form a theory before it is known. For example Einstein's last prediction of General Relativity took almost one hundred years to be confirmed. It was not known at the time that he made the prediction, nor was there any way to test it at that time. Since the first observation of gravity waves we have seen them again and again:

    Einstein’s last theory confirmed: A guide to gravitational waves

    If the OP wants the Kabbalah to be amazing he needs to find a clear prediction that it makes ahead of an event or discovery.
     
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  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member
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    As Science and religion are both paths to understand aspects of the same Truth, by posing any limitations on the search to start with is like studying just One Atom in a Universe of Atoms.

    Though the study of an Atom can lead to discovering the greater truths as this quote indicates; "..all of these are connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities and potentialities."


    In saying that if you want an in detail study of how the Universe was Created, you may enjoy reading this provisional translation of the 'Tablet of the Universe' - Tablet of the Universe

    I hope you study goes well.

    Regards Tony
     
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  10. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    Please elaborate.
     
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  11. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    And also thanks :) fixed the post ;)
     
  12. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Why?

    In what way is Kbl specific enough not to lend itself to multiple possible interpretations as it applies to very specific scientific predictions?

    Perhaps you could cite one small example and we could discuss?

    Very true. I would be relying on you to educate me on the specifics of Kbl interpretation. However, I don't see why this would hamper any discussions.

    For example, let's say there are a set of scriptures called the Aesops, and one of those scriptures states:

    "The snake had two eyes that glared forward with intensity."

    From that scripture, I state that it clearly points to the existence of two charged particles, the electron and proton. I am sure that many people would point out that without modern knowledge of atomic physics, no one would have ever said that the scripture was talking about what makes up atoms, much less the type and charge of particles in that atom.


    How do you know specifically and precisely what the Kbl suggests?
     
  13. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    Nope. That would be me :)
    Not really. but it would be of a great value.
    What do you mean highly intellectual?
    What is classically taught Jews?
    And as i mentioned, atheism is not really a factor.
    If you can look at it while putting aside your "religious ego", it would be great regardless if you are a thiest.
    that is far from the truth.
    it is funny that this statement of yours is what makes the Kbl even more interesting. you are clearly very much mistaken about your previous statement which leads you to make wrong conclusions.
    "trying and finding a scientific discoveries BASED on the Kabbalah rather then disregarding it as a myth or just another religion."

    Please note the emphasized BASED on...
    It appears as you assume i want to test if Kbl is real. I have no such desire.
     
  14. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    I find that very doubtful :)
     
  15. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. science leads to objective truth. religion leads to some truths and many myths.
    What do you mean limitations? what limitations?
    Awesome :)
    Thanks. I think I'll pass :)
    Why would you assume I want to find another theory to how the universe was made?
    Thanks :)
    Cheers :)
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Really? You doubt that I had chicken for dinner?
     
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  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So you do not understand what science is or how it works either.

    The scientific method is an approach to solving problems. It does not lead to "objective truth". It leads to theories that explain nature. Theories are always changing because they tend to be improved when some aspect of them are found to be wrong.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The word תּוֹרָה ends with the Hebrew letter hei (or hey) and is transliterated Torah, not Tora.

    The oral Tora (sic), while traditionally seen as including kabbalah, refers primarily to the Talmud.
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I beg to differ:

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    many things in the Kbl are studied as "grocery list". as rules and strict foundations of the entire Jewish belief.
    so this is a very interesting social thought that helped keep things very precise for many years.
    So your statement of many interpolation is only right for a small portion of the Kbl.

    An example of a scientific approach would be Gimatrya. (A mathematical value of characters).
    It is filled with mathematical equations and pattern.
    I would love doing it in another post :) it is not the intention of this thread unless you offer a scientific interpolation to things :)
    So if you wish to open a new post I will gladly join. we can start with the word "בראשית" ;)
    If i will have an explanation i will gladly provide it.
    if there will be several interpolations, i will try and present them (to my knowledge, of course).
    I agree,
    It is very easy to find references to what we already know.
    that is not what i want to examine, that's why it would be a challenge :)
    I don't :)
    only parts of it :) and only those that are unanimously accepted.
     
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