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Featured An important message to: The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by savagewind, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    They were fulfilled. Jesus said He came to fulfill them didn't He?

    Matthew 5:17-18 (ESV Strong's) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    After all was complete, He said,

    John 19:30 (ESV Strong's) When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

    Everything Jesus came to do, fulfill the law and destroy the works of the devil, He completed.
     
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    You were a witness for 20 years and was never told to, "trust the slave completely"?
     
  3. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Maybe I didn't read all of the Watchtowers through. OMG. At convensions, I would fight to stay alert, but lost every time.
    I had never heard if from an elder until I did. Anyway, I think it is different for the faithful and discreet slave to say they should be trusted than it is for the real people to say it. I had not read that they ever said, "Jehovah trusts us", but it seems that by the work that some people do they have found the gb communicating that. It is crazy.
     
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  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    There is also a difference between trusting someone to tell what truth they know and trusting someone unconditionally.
    It is so very, very obvious that the Bible warns about trusting humans and that there is only one to trust. The truth.
    Trust the truth. Who knows it? God knows it!
     
  5. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    There were two Jehovah's Witnesses conditions that I disagreed with for many years. One is that JWs should record and submit what they do for furthering congregation interests. The Bible teaches that The Holy Spirit can make known where the gospel must go. They use math to determine what should be done.

    While typing that I forgot the other one. :oops: And there are other things I disagreed with but I stayed until I was sure of leaving.

    Anyway, I waited enough time for them to grow up. It is obvious to me that they will not.
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It's not much of a Kingdom then, is it. Catholics and Protestants slaughtering each other all the way from the counter-reformation to Northern Ireland, thousands of Christian sects in schism after schism, Mormons popping up 1800 years down the track, Rastafarians staking a claim, an organizational mess.

    Then there's ─

    Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    Luke 17:30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed

    John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”​

    So the Kingdom is already established, but Jesus will have to come back and sort out the chaos, yes?

    Why the delay?
     
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What has any of that to do with Jesus' fulfillment of the law?
     
  8. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think it might be saying that he really comes to the person and that he won't come to the world.

    John 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

    John 17:14 I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

    Matthew 20:28 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    First of all, in what manner did he 'fulfill' the law of the Jews? I don't recall any part of the law in the Tanakh that was thought of as unfulfilled.

    He certainly wasn't the messiah prophesied in the Tanakh, since he didn't restore the independence of Israel. On the contrary, his followers came to pursue widespread systematic oppression of Jewry across the millennia.

    Second, in DavidFirth's view, when John's Jesus said 'It is finished' (19:30) he meant that he had established the kingdom of God, of the kind referred to in Luke 17:20. Which led me to do some homework (in my post #66 to him) from which I learnt that 'the kingdom of God' has two distinct meanings, one being 'the church' and the other being a future state or condition, on this earth or perhaps in heaven.

    I had assumed your comment was in this context, and if I was mistaken, you have my apology.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In speaking about the 144.000, by what and who causes the 144.000 to come out from the Great Confusion of Babylon the Great The Mother of Harlots, during the tribulation ?
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    This one? I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Revelation 7:14

    The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Revelation 7:14 is about the people who will live on a paradise Earth.

    The 144,000 are heavenly souls.

    Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1

     
  13. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    I have found that to follow the catholic (small c) ideology that emerged through the Pharisee's continues to create confusion around the gospel message from Christ. Neither the OT or Revelations were taught in the church of the 1st -3th centuries. Christs sword was on of spirit, separating the flesh (physical) from the spirit by teaching what spiritual truth is. Any scriptures that promote thoughts of flesh.was quickly grabbed up so the Pharisee's could reinstate the Priesthood of celestial authority over men. This cause was accepted in Nicaea in 325AD and Constantinople in 381AD giving men the same Priesthood that led to the crucifixion of Christ.

    Christ said to teach the Gospel. The church fathers changed the to teach the Bible. The gray area of the OT has no power over the light who came to reveal spiritual truth. John 8 clearly says the the Jews had been confused by the "liar and murderer". And also explains in John that "Moses did not get his bread (knowledge) from heaven", but that he (Christ) was the knowledge directly from heaven. John 6:32

    The Bible is a catholic creation. You cannot trap spiritual knowledge between two (chosen) book covers. .
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Look back at the time of Christ Jesus and before, All the disciples had was the old testament to go by.

    The new testament from Matthew to Revelation had not been written yet.

    As the disciples went out teaching people to what Christ Jesus had taught them, and in writing things down for each of the churches, this is how the New Testament came about.
    But before this all the disciples had was the Old Testaments to teach from.

    All the Disciples did was build off from the Old Testaments.

    The Old Testaments is where the New Testament is Concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testaments being Revealed.
     
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  15. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    I see it differently. There is no old and new. There is ignorance and knowledge.

    The Gentiles never needed to know the OT to understand and accept Christ. There were more Gentiles than Jews, and Pauls writings (of church) preceded the Canon Gospels. Christ had to go to the Jews first. Judaism was the Jewish religion for the Jews. He turned the whole ideology inside out to expose what the Jews (thinking only they had it) to combine it to the whole world. They (Jews) were told that they were gods chosen. Christ said the whole world contains gods chosen.

    I don't follow the catholic ideology (one god) and see the "liar and murderer" in the OT that Jesus spoke of in John 8.

    The catholic ideology teaches the {other gospel" Paul warns about in Galatians 1. Paul use the rest of the 5 chapters refuting the teachings of the law, circumcision, meats, and other fleshly followings. The church fathers reformed the "gospel" into a fleshly ignorance over spiritual truth. By the power of the Roman empire, the RCC instituted a "death sentence" to those who didn't believe as they did. Not a Christ teaching on what to do to enemies (of belief).

    Just my view after some 40 years of study into the early Christian chasm.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Before the New Testaments were Written down, all the disciples had was the Old Testaments to teach the Gentiles by.

    Until at the time of Paul, Then Paul started to write to the churches, has did the other disciples.

    You can not teach people what you do not have to teach people from. All Paul and the other disciples had were the old testaments to teach people from.

    All we have to day, is what Paul and the other disciples had written down. Which we call to day the New Testaments.

    But all the disciples had to go by to teach the Gentiles by was the Old Testaments.
     
  17. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Christ taught in the synagogues and on the road. He didn't teach the OT, he taught his gospel message. The many early Christian writings were of the many that heard his teachings. Much of what was oral tradition since most people of that time didn't go to schools to learn to read or write (like most today).

    There very first words Christ taught when he received the Holy Ghost was to the devil himself (in the desert). When he returned, he disputed the Jewish tenet with teachings like the Beatitudes which clearly weren't of Hebrew ideology, He glorified the true God, the Father, and called him by no Jewish name.

    If you are trying to repair the veil, it won't work with me. The end of the Hebrew era came to an end with the words "it is finished". There was no place for priests anymore. The Holy Spirit, that leads one to all truth, was available directly to men. The Jews had never had this.
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Oh really, As to how many times did Christ refer to the old testament, When Christ said it is written, referring to the old testament.
    Christ also said, "Have you not read it is written. Referring to the old testament.

    Christ also referred to Jonah which is the old testament.
    Christ also referred to the book of Isaiah.
    Christ also referred to Daniel the Prophet.
    All of these are old testament.
    Christ also said, that He has not come to speak of Himself, only what the Father has given Him, that shall he speak.

    Christ came to bring what the Prophet's in the old testament wrote of him.
    Therefore Christ spoke many times on the old testament.
    If Christ would haved spoken anything else, but the old testament, how would people know of a certain who he was.

    Christ had to stay with the old testament and speak on those things in the old testament, so that people would see Christ as the fulfilment of the old testament.
     
  19. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    That's the orthodox church fathers teachings.Gnosis reveals a different perspective.

    The Holy Spirit tells you who to listen to and you still seek wisdom from people like Moses and Isaiah:

    Mark (Matthew and Luke):

    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

    Do you not get the vision? Since Jesus said no man has heard the "Fathers" voice at "anytime", then what other voice that we "can" hear would call him Son? His mother, the Holy Spirit (that Moses nor Isaiah ever had).

    John:
    36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
    37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

    You fight for orthodoxy over the truth right before your eyes.I already showed that Jesus said the OT fathers ate bread (knowledge) and died, and that his bread (knowledge) was life;

    I showed where Jesus said that Moses did NOT get his bread from "heaven" yet Christ was the true bread from heaven.

    Moses works were weak:
    Romans:
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    Galatians:
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Romans:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    When the word Spirit is capitalized, it is a pronoun (particular).

    John:
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Jesus told us we were getting something that hadn't been here.

    To me, it's plain as day Gospel logic. And the non Canon gospels agree.
     
    #99 Phantasman, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Notice, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

    Have you any clue as to which law that is ?

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ.

    What law is that ?

    For what the law could not do, In that it was weak.

    What law is that ?

    You quote many bible passages, but do not give what law those are.

    Read 1 Timothy 1:7--"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, Nor whereof they affirm"

    If you desire to be a teacher of the law, be sure you know what law is being spoken of.

    Look you have

    The Ten Commandment law.
    The law of sin and death.
    The law of Righteousness.
    The law of Obedience.
    The law of the Spirit.
    The law of God.
    The law of Christ Jesus.
    The law of sin.
    The law of Circumcision.
    The law of Faith.
    The book of the law.
    The law of the kingdom of heaven.

    Now do you have any idea as to what law is being spoken about in what you quoted ?
     
    #100 Faithofchristian, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
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